What about the turbo 4-cylinder Mustangs? I know guys run 9's with those. Don't they have some **** iron heads or something?

I believe you are refering to the turbo coupes, for what they were the were not that slow, I know they are very light.

1981 Ford Mustang M81 McLaren (2.3L Turbo) 9.7 17.3

Not bad for 1981, IIRC there was a key element that held them back. (My friend has a write up about them in a book I will have to check it out).

2.3T's......VERY wicked combo just waiting for mods. I know a guy locally at 400 RWHP with his 91 2.3T (converted to turbo obviously) the 85-86 SVO's were high in potential.

I give handling to the F-bodies stock vs. stock. however, Ive seen some Fox's with suspension work handle like crazy and do some stupid crazy stuff on the autox/skidpads.

Looks, I LOVE the looks of 86-92 F-bods (GFX cars only). however, I reallyl iek the look of a clean Fox body....Especially Notches :drool:......Ive been wanting a Notch for awhile and a guy locally was oging to trade me straight out last spring for my hatch.....I kept my car though, consideirng his was a blown motor/tranny rough notch for my running/driving/geared 5.0/5 speed.....I preferred to drive my car at the time....especially nowadays when I cant keep it alive for mre than 3 weeks

I've always thought foxes look pretty neat and can look mean, but they're never sexy. They never turn my head. Like my car, if it was a woman i would make love to her. A mustang would be a fat chick that smells bad.

But everytime I see one it's some kid with his hat on sideways thinking it's the most badass sh!t in the world revving at me. They see taillights.. if i bother to run.

I test drove a 5.0 stang in looking for a new car and quite honestly it was not impressive at all. It couldn't handle for sh!t and the straight line acceleration was awful. Guess thats why I went with something that had 75 more hp and gobs more tq.

I'd never ever buy a fox body unless I had the cash to make it handle, and the time to put at least a 351 in it.

I just don't like mustangs... unless you're talking 03/04 Cobra

i almost agree,however when i see an lx at night with the parking lights on it looks mean and sexy to me,especially the 87-93 saleen that is a sexy biotch!

a 5.0/5 speed Fox, you test drove and were morei mpressed by an auto LT1???????? WTF? a 5.0 5 speed FEELS rowdy...I remember I test drove an auto Lt1 car and took it back and told them to keep it.....it felt a lil morep owerful than my old 305 carb.....the 5.0 felt rowdy as hell and borke the tires loose with 228k miles, 2.73's and decent tires.....I loved it.

Its not hard to make a Fox handle...but its MUCH easier to make it go straight, MUCH better setup than the torque arm setup f-bods got....4 link bitches

and 89 Saleens are badass.....just an LX with GFx and the uber-badass Saleen Vortech intake...that sells uber-high

My only straight up comparison was between an LS1 and a weak 5.0 and SOTP feel was better in the 5.0. I have been in and driven LT1s and they feel great, but not much if at all better than the 5.0s I have been in! I guess its in the eyes of the beholder, but as far as fox body vs thirdgen goes... I personally would hands down take nearly any fox over nearly any thirdgen, but thats just me!

LT1 cars are faster than any stock 5.0 Mustang, and they have more power. So I dont see how it can feel just a little faster than a 305 carb car lol. Most of the LT1 cars had an underrated 275 horsepower. The 5.0 Mustangs of the late 80's only had 225. Thats a noticeable difference. I love both cars I am just stating the facts.

Its kind of hard to feel the power in a LS1 because its torque is flat across the board. A 5.0 feels more powerful because the car isn't that strong very easy to twist a fox body frame. An very easy to break traction and do donuts.

Kind of like when they compared the first Z06 to the Cobra R the Z beat the cobra in every way but the drivers liked the cobra better because they said it feels better and is more fun to drive.

auto LT1's are no slouches... they ride out pretty good.. better than L98's which were pretty much even with 5.0/5speeds back in the day.

lol you shoulda got the LT1, you'd be going faster right now.

You answered your own question however, the mustang only felt fast. that was because it was a stick and sticks usually feel fast. However simply driving the LT1 at part throttle I knew it would rape the sh!t out of the 5.0.

did you even bother to step on the LT1? just floor it from a stop and it won't just break the tires loose... it'll f*cking demolish them. I used to own a 305 carb'd camaro, an LG4... and I raced it not too long ago with my LT1. I didn't even bother to count how many buslengths.

Yes 89IrocZ350TPI you're right. All LT1s were underrated except SS and WS6 cars. Every LT1 without exception will make about 305 fwhp bone stock, and should trap about 100. Mine trapped 100 with only a catback with 150k on the clock.

I remember reading some where that the 02 WS6 cars put close to 300 ponies to the ground. Which would mean they should have a little over 325 at the flywheel. Not sure though....

any LS1, 98-02 will put down about 305 rwhp. They have approx 340 flywheel hp. They were underrated in a very similar way to the LT1s.

L98 fbody vs a 5 speed 5 liter stang was a good race. A 6 speed L98 vette will simply beat a fox body stang (due to being lil bit lighter and more power) A LT1 will stomp any Fox Body period. If its automatic or not. This is stock. But who the hell keeps there cars stock.

One of the nice things about it is stock times dont mean much. A stock 13.8 LT1 vs a stock 14.4 5.0 is a good difference. But you start adding mods and all bets are off. I know its easy to get into the 12s with an LT1, but it is easy to do so in a fox body, and is also really cheap (not sure how much it would cost in an LT1)!

For me the choice was easy, I wanted to go fast, race the car, and do it all on a High School kids budget (what I was at the time). There wasnt an LT1 option (initial cost), and there were no clean 5-speed thirdgens worth my while. The best bet was the Mustang, and even to this day after being involved in Mustang racing I cant see going elsewhere. I have yet to see an Fbody heads up racing league, let alone 4 or 5 in my area that I can run events every month at a minimum!

Now I have been playing with the idea of building a little bolt on 5-speed L98 car (I HATE autos) and seeing what it can do, but right now my money is better spent elsewhere!

plenty 11,12,13 sec bolt on lt1's true bolt ons no blowers,n2o or superchargers

All it takes is gears, a catback, comp tuning and a set of tires for an LT1 to run a 12.9. That's at a ~3700 (mine weighs 3750) raceweight.

course the best bang for the buck car imo would have to be a thirdgen, if you're talking rolling chassis with no engine. You can find a roller for $300 and it's an excellent platform that can run any SBC, any tranny worthwhile and any rearend worth it's salt. You can even stuff a bbc in it and still have room to work. Not to mention the fact they handle great and have the looks too!

LT1s are awesome platforms if you want a whole car and want something semi new with all the comforts, but still can't spend much over $5k to buy a car.

I love the old sbc. But those LT1s with the Opti Spark I love LT1s though Thirdgens are one the best bang for the buck cars. You can get them cheap. They handle good and look awesome. A fox body looks like a ford escort. Even though i still think fox bodies can be done right and are cool. But thats just my 2cents. Plus you can drop a big block in a thirdgen (maybe some custom fab?) But a 4th gen barely can squeeze a dinky 5.7 in it. Its like a mini van or somthing

Its a great bang for buck, if you can find a roller in decent shape, and whatnot. For me the LT1s were too much cash, and the thirdgens were too hard to find. Plus with the Fbodies the weak rear ends were a turn off, as well as the fact most were autos, and converting them to a stick isnt cheap and easy (for the most part)!

Take my word for it, for me the best bang for buck was the fox body, hands down. I priced it all out, and to stay fuel injected, get mid 20 mpg, have the car look and feel stock (daily driver) I couldnt have done it cheaper or easier than with a fox body. Also couldnt have made the money I have made running Mustang events, or know the guys I know in the Mustang racing world!

But one of these days Im sure Ill play with an Fbody. Probably and LT or LS1, and have some fun with it!

You *can* squeeze a bbc in these, but it requires reconstruction of the engine bay. However there are several people that have made 412 LT1 strokers. 383s and 396s are quite common.

and the opti isn't so bad. I had mine installed in about an hour and a half, and i took a short break.

Yes I got on it....it was fun no doubt but it still didnt feel as rowdy as my Fox. Plus I was going to pay over double for a car BARELY faster, much higher insurance and much more expensive to mod. the best bang for the buck goes to the 5.0....When all is said and odne within the next year or so my Fox will have new paint, aftermarket block (331 stroker), turbo or S/C, Nitrous, and run low 11's/10's all while costing me well under 10k to do. And the full bolt ons I did costed me under 10k and picked me up over a second 1/4 mile UNTUNED and first imteo ut...had I had more track time and some tuning, I would have been doing the itmes 25th has put down....and thats all N/A, no bottle.

I like LS1's......I like ThirdGens. But after working on 4th gens before, Id have to say I wouldnt waste my itme on a LT1 car......the LS1 has ALOT more potential and IMO the LT1 is just an expensive SBC....and if Im going to rip my hands apart under that damn cowl area, Id at least like to make it worth my while

Everyone has preferences.....I used to be anti-Mustang. But after getting whored by them and watching geared/exhaust/tire Mustangs go deep 13's easily, I was ocnvinced a 5.0 Fox could be built cheaply and give me the speed I wanted at my budget....something I KNOW I could have never done with the LT1 car.....

actually, way back in the day before GMHTP became LS1HTP, they did an article on flow numbers for various TPI intakes, runners, and the stock aluminum L98 heads. interestingly, the heads only flowed 175cfm (at the L98 cams max intake lift) while the completely assembled stock TPI intake flowed just under 200cfm

based on that flow data, it seems as though the intake ISNT the restriction in the L98 motor (as everyone believes), and the heads were really the culprit

and as Urban pointed out, LT1 heads were in fact far superior to even the aluminum L98 head, nevermind the iron ones

I don't know what prices were like when you were shopping, but nowadays a good LT1 car can be bought for $5k. A few gs more than a foxbody, but probably newer, with better components (i.e. T-56) and has a bigger engine. You could have a thirdgen running the same times for under 10k no problem. I'll have mine running high 11s for just about $5500.

These cars are NOT more expensive to mod unless you pay someone to do your work for you. Sounds like you might not do your own work

This is one of the MOST rediculous things I've read on this board and one of the most ignorant. It ranks right up there with "putting a cutout in your exhaust makes you lose low end torque."

Let's talk prices again. A good low miles LS1 car will run you 10k+, probably ~12k. An LS1 has better heads and an intake but it costs ALOT to get into one. That's about a $7000 difference. For $1300 plus money for supporting mods (headers, injectors) you can buy a LE1 package from Lloyd Elliot that makes 375rwhp. You won't do that in a mustang. I guarantee it. That will pass CA smog too.

As far as semi new cars with engines go, LT1s are the BIGGEST bang for the buck car out there and I defy you to prove me wrong. They have a huge aftermarket and are EXCELLENT motors. They'll run a 13.5 with a set of tires, and high 12s with just a couple bolt ons. Don't even need headers. They'll run over 200k miles like it's nothing and they'll love every minute of it. The stock bottom end will take 6-8 pounds of boost. Stock heads can flow at over 280 cfm when ported and cut, and their heads/intake (ported) have run an 8.00 1/4 mile on a boosted LT1. I'm sorry, but a mustang does NOT have more potential in any way, shape or form.

Just like you feel you wouldn't waste your time on an LT1, I wouldn't waste my time on a 5.0 mustang. They're ugly, they're SLOW, they have sh!tty potential with a 5.0L block and they don't handle for sh!t.

My only complaint about the LT1 is the small work space, however if you're a semi competant mechanic you can deal with it.

As with the LT1s, the fox bodies have proved over the years to be one of the best bang for buck cars out there. If you think they dont have potential and cant run, handle or whatever with an Fbody, you REALLY need to open your eyes, get off your high horse and see the real world. You want to see ignorance read some of what you wrote...

In response to this, again wake up, open your eyes and step outside of your fantasy world. Mustangs have as much potential as ANY Fbody car out there! If you dont think so, then dont, I KNOW for a FACT they do!

I can definately agree to disagree, and your opinion means nothing really (afterall, Im sure you have NO Mustang experience at all), but take my word for it (as I would take your word when it comes to Fbodies) the Mustang can and will run with the LT1 and will do so for the same or less money!

Urban there are many points that I agree with you on, however, the 5.0 has the cheapest and most extensive aftermarket of almost any motor to date. You can run 11's cheaper in a 5.0 than in an LT1 car. Don't go by power and flow numbers alone. Fox bodies are cheap, come with stronger bottom ends, are super super light, better exhaust, and have a HUGE aftermarket. You can drive to work and pass at least one shop that sells parts for them. Those parts are far cheaper than 4th gen F-body parts. They are all over and are a dime a dozen. I owned an LT1 car for years and I loved every minute of it. However, even though there was a large aftermarket for it, it came at a great cost. The $ per ET reduction is by far in favor of the ol' five-o. 13.5's in an LT1 with better tires is by no means normal.


The LS1 is without a doubt superior to the LT1 in every facet. Sure the LT1 came with great stock heads and intake but it is still plagued with a crappy ignition, 23° heads, poor oiling, and heavy parts. It is a great engine, don't get me wrong, I just think you are underestimating the fox body platform with the 5.0. It is easy to side with the Mustang crowd when a set of 4th gen long tubes (with y-pipe) will run you the same price as getting a FULL dual exhaust on the stang.

Man you guys are playing rough today. Both the LT1 and 5.0 are great engines. Its just a matter of what you are looking for. The 5.0 is a great car if your on a budget. LT1's are too but the LT1 parts are a little more expensive. Someone above said LS1 cars can be found with low milage for around 11K was it?? The ones I have looked at were in the 16-24K Range.

Im not saying mustangs can't be fast, im just saying it takes alot of work to get them there. Most of the ones you'll be able to buy are ragged out and need a new motor, they come stock at 225 hp (pitiful) and are ugly to boot. Not to mention if you get an auto it's a pos, fbod autos aren't the greatest but they're way better than mustangs.

What does the fastest bolt on 5.0 run anyway? I'm not sure exactly what the fastest LT1 car runs, but I know it's 11s.

And I've seen it several times shifty, sticky tired stock LT1s run mid 13s. There's a few vids on LS1tech showing bolt on and stock LT1s and there are two cars in those vids doing it. I've also seen it at the local track. Guy ran a 13.61 in a sticky tired but otherwise bone stock to the paper filter 94 trans am.

And yes im aware that the LS1 is a great engine, it's just very expensive. Most great things are expensive.

First off 25th, I respect you and what you've done with your cars. But I need to question your second sentance there. "No replacement for displacement," right? Lets see you pull 396+ cubes out of a 302 block.

I have more experience than you think. Never owned one, don't want to own one, but I know plenty of people who do and I've helped them work on their cars plenty. I know alot more about 'stangs than you think I do, and my opinion stands.

Bolt-on for bolt-on, an LT1 WILL outrun a 5.0.

Edit:

With some quick looking I found a few times.

Without lifting valve covers the best I found was 11.94 @ 3500 pounds. Guy named Steve something.

With 1.7 rockers I found 11.8@114. If you don't know, that's about what an 03-04 Z06 will run. His car weighed 3050 raceweight.

I can understand where urbanhunter44 is comming from 302 vs LT1 350 stock for stock the LT1 wins everytime! BUT the biggest advantage the fox bodies have is the BODY! IT ISN'T THE ENGINE THAT MAKES THE CAR FASTER! Hell a L98 can make more power than a 5.0. The fact is the fox body is a better drag car thats it!
You put a LT1 in a nova or vega it will kill a 5.0

Now 25thmustang I know what a stock motor can do in a fox body (run 10's with a stock motor) you have educated us on this a 101 times I believe you. But you can't deny the stock Lt1 has more power potential than a stock 5.0 and a fox body has a better drag car potential than a f-body!

cheapest and most extensive aftermarket of almost any motor to date

Shifty when was the last time you picked up a catalog and compared prices? That was really true in the 90's but now ford might have a slight if any adv. on aftermarket parts and thats on very few parts. Now just about anything you can buy for a mustang you can get for a f-body for the same price. There are more and more unheard of companies making very cheap parts for f-bodies.

Anyway none of this stuff really matters the person with the most money is going to win!

Hard to deny it, but bottem line staying F/I the 5.0 Mustang is one of the best bang for buck cars out there!

As far as bolt on times, Im not sure on the exact combo, but I know Justin Burcham a long time back ran 11s on a stock long blocked car. Now it might have had rockers on it, and Im sure it weighed well under 3000 lbs, but he did it! There is no replacement for displacement but I have seen street driven stock long block 5.0s going low 12s, more than once, and can say if your going to get petty over an 11.9 and a 12.1, then Ill give you the 2 tenths in a car with a lot more displacement.

I personally have never seen a fast LT1 (might just be where I live) but my friend does run 12.7s with a cammed LT1 (all the bolt ons and a cam), another friend went low 13s, and maybe a few other 13 second cars. To me it seems noone around here plays with LT1s, its all LS1s or nothing!

In my eyes I look at it this way, an LT1 costs more (even when comapring similar mileage cars), the aftermarket parts cost more, they have weak rear ends, are harder to work on, and have the weight you have to over come (for going fast and keeping parts breakage down), and personally like what you said before about the autos, I HATE autos with a passion! I have driven low 10 second stick shifted cars and can say, unless your run deep 9s, the auto guys are just compensating for not being able to drive well...



In the end I chose my car to go fast for cheap. I could NOT have ever gone this fast in an LT1 with the money I have into this car, and with a thirgen to even touch these numbers I would have to go carb, spend a lot more money, and altogether lose the driveability and street manners my car has! An LT1 is a good choice, but with the cons outweighing the slight power and 1/4 time increase, it wasnt worth it either!

Oh well, Im fighting a losing battle here so Ill say this... LT1s will run faster with their bigger engines, that Ill give you. The Mustangs simply cost less, and are easier to work on. I feel they are a better platform as well, but thats debatable (as with anything I guess). And for the guy on a budget you can find any 5.0 Mustang you want to start with, you can mod it, save some money and go fast! One reason they are so popular!

lol we will get no where with arguing. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree LOL

also, 12.7s in a cammed LT1 is pitiful. Tell him to log onto camaroz28.com or LS1tech.com to find out where he f*cked up LOL

You hit the nail on the head man

This thread proves that the Ford vs GM muscle war still exists. This is good!!! I applaud all of you for keeping this clean. We can argue all we want but with the right "know how" both platforms can be deadly fast. All of our experiences are different and all of our track “witnessing” is different than the next guys. Because the classic Ford vs GM muscle debate cannot be solved at all I will let this one die and leave it up to you guys to choose your ponies wisely!