Didn't get a chance to post earlier, but two days ago, on my way to work, I had a guy in a new Mustang GT pull up along side me. I own a '88 IROC-Z which I bought as a beater car last summer until I finish building up the motor in my 4th gen. Anyways, it's only mods are home-made ram-air, a Dynamax 3" exhaust and 3" cat. Oh, and basic upgrades like plugs,wires, cap and rotor. Basically, nothing worth bragging about. Anyways, I'd never raced this car even once since I've owned it and never thought I would either, since it's basically stock and newer cars these days seem to be getting faster and faster each year. But when this guy pulled up next to me in his shiny new GT and kept looking over, I knew he wanted to mess around a bit, and that "old feeling" came back to me, and my adrenaline kicked in. It was pretty early in the morning, around 7:00am so the roads were clear of traffic of any kind. The light turned green, and I got a little carried away and launched it too hard, spinning the tire's for atleast the first 30-40 feet. The GT didn't get off to such a great start either as he also spun out of the hole. We managed to get through two sets of lights before we both had to slow down due to a red light up ahead. I'd say it was roughly the equivelent of an 1/8 mile race. Even with my aweful start, I still got him off the line and started to pull on him all the way through second gear. The furthest I was ahead of him was just about a car's length (his front bumper was about 4-5 away from my rear bumper. It stayed like that all the way through, until we both let off. We got to the next intersection and he asked me what I'd done to the car, and I told him it was stock besides the cat-back and he complimented me on how good the car ran. He said he used to have a GTA back in the late 80's but could never afford to do anything with it and sold it in order to get money for colledge. He asked if I wanted to give it another go and I agreed. We took off again at the lights, only this time, I had much less wheel spin and after the first intersection. When we both let off, my rear bumper was atleast 15-20 feet ahead of his front end. He was cool about it though, he gave me the thumbs up and said he wished he never got rid of the GTA He said the GT was only a few weeks old and completely stock and that he was awaiting a new set of headers he'd ordered last week and that he hoped we would meat up again when that happened. Again, he gave me the thumbs up, and we both went our seperate ways after that. Needless to say, I was really happy with the car's performance. I never thought I'd keep up with brand new Mustang, so when I beat him twice, I was really kind of shocked. Granted, I'm not dumb enough to think I'd beat him in the 1/4, obviously, he'd overtake me at the top and walk past me, but in the 1/8 mile, my L98 held it's own. Not bad for a a basically bone-stock (nearly 20 year old) car with 180,000km on the odometer. It can still keep up with a new Mustang. These 3rd gen's may be old, but even stock, with 325lb of torque on tap with the L98, these cars are still a force to be recconed with (in the 1/8 mile anyways). These TPI's are great stoplight-to-stoplight street cars. My next upgrade in a week or two, is definetly going to be a set of headers, I'm positive I'll pick up atleast 20-25hp over those horrid stock manifolds (GP on this forum maybe?) Anyways, with any luck, I'll meat up with that guy again after i get some headers and see what happens. Hopefully, we'll be able to race a little further next time around. Long live TPI !!

might i suggest the hooker p/n 2055 headers for that car. they are pretty much the cats meow when it comes to shorty headers for these cars...\\

good kill though! the guys that own those mustangs for the most part think they are the best thing since sliced bread...glad to hear there are still some people out there that thing realistically...i've had to embarasse more than a few to bring those people back to reality...

Thanks. Most of the Mustangs I've raced, the guy's are pretty friendly and always give me a nod or a thumbs up. Occasionaly, I'll meet a guy who's really stuck up and acts as if his car is the fastest thing on four wheels. But (atleast in my area) those guy's are few and far between. Around here, the biggest ego's are the guy's driving Corvettes. I've never met a Vette owner who wasn't a total A-hole

i know the 2055's appear to be the number 1 choice on this forum and I must admitt, having seen them in person, they are indeed a nice header. But $750 for the ceramic version is just way too much. Hell, you can get 1 3/4 stainless steel SLP's for $50 less and they'll never rust out.

Actually, what I'm planning to get is the MAC headers. My local speedshop has a set on display, and the y-pipe (which is the Hookers best feature) is IDENTICAL on the MAC's. You can get the MAC's with or without air, and even get them ceramic coated for $569. Like I said, I've seen them in person and the headers themselve's are every bit as good as the 2055's and the y-pipe is a carbon copy of Hookers y-pipe. All that for nearly $200 LESS!

It's an easy decision for me.

I'm going with the MAC's.

When I get the spare cash, I'll post to see if anyone wants to get in on a group purchase for the MAC's....

the majority of the mustang guys around me are actually pretty quick, so they kinda have the right to be snooty about it, though it doesn't make it right.

the MAC headers are very nice, i forgot about those, though i'd actually put some longtubes on it if it were my car.

My car sit's about 2 inches off the ground so LT's wouldn't be such a good idea

I wen't with LT's on my LT1 and there was a noticible loss in low end torque. Nothing HUGE mind you, just enough for me to feel the difference. They made up for it though from 4500RPM and up.

My plans for the L98 are just to have a reasonably quick 12 second daily driver. The low-end "grunt" is what makes these cars so much fun to drive and I want all my future upgrades to emphasize the TPI's strongest point. it's low-mid range torque. That's why I'll be sticking with 1 5/8 shorty headers.

They give me the ground clearance I'm looking for, and boost power where I want it most, idle-4500RPM. Getting headers that will improve flow past 4500rpm doesn't do much good (for my goals anyway) since TPI won't make any power past 4500rpm anyway, so having LT's or 1 3/4 headers wouldn't be worth the loss in low-end torque.

If I were building an all-out race motor, or something pushing 500+hp, I'd definetely go LT's.

I've never heard of MAC is that the name or does it stand for something. Good kill bye the way.

Was the mustang guy a stick or an auto? '05/'06 stangs should take an L98 in every way shape and form down a drag strip (equal drivers) however something tells me this guy hasn't learned to drive his mudstain yet and anything happens on the street of course where traction is limited and most drivers suck. Ford cracks me up. 300hp stock. Welcome to 1993, Ford.

Anywho good kill! Are you planning on 12s with just bolt-ons? I've always theorized that it's possible to hit 12.9s in a bolt-on L98....

Thanks for the compliment.

As far as MACK, check out there website. They've been around a long time. Back in the day, their products were really popular with the Mustang croud. But, as time went on, and more and more companies entered the market, MAC, (just like Dynomax and Flowmaster) kinda got "lost in the croud" - sort of speak. they still make excellent exhaust systems though. In my opinion, as good, if not better, than anyone else.

Mac Performance - performance accessories for cars, trucks, and motorcycles

glad to see another person has been brought around with the torque of the l98. nice kill on the mustang, and good choice on building the third gen into a 12 second daily driver.

hedman longtubes and their 1 5/8" primaries did nothing but help low end torque in my application...though i pretty much have an 11 second daily driver.

It was an auto, and as I said, we both spun a lot off the the line. The car was the newer bodystyle but whether it was an 05/06, I couldn't tell you. The owner said he'd just got it, but didn't say if it was new or used. Either way, the car was spotless.
All I know, is that I beat him both runs. 1/4 mile would be a different story all together since TPI engines aren't exactly known for their "top-end" power.



He'd have tore me a new one had we gone all the way.


To answer your question though, yes, I do plan on running 12's with bolt-ons.

Last year at Cayuga, there were 3 "bolt-on" TPI's running high 12's (12.8-12.9) and one guy running 12.5's but he had a 2600 stall converter in it which really isn't "bolt-on" but close enough All were using drag radials.

I often find it strange why so many people seem to not be able to get into the 12's with their TPI 3rd gens.. I can't understand it. For every bolt-on TPI car I see running 12's, I'll see 50 "heads and cam" TPI's running 13's. WTF??

These motors put out a lot torque and it's just a matter of putting all that torque to the ground efficiently. With exhaust and full bolt-ons (I'm including aftermarket runners and intake base) a good running TPI can put out close to 400# of torque. All you need to do is put that power down properly, and your set. Your trap speeds might not be the greatest, but trap speed isn't what wins races. It's your ET's.

Traction is a TPI's best friend.

Oh yes, I will be running 12's.... mark my words

Well to be quite honest I've never seen a true bolt-on L98 running 12s. Ever.

And I consider a torque converter a bolt-on. What isn't a bolt-on is a forced induction item (S/C, turbo, N20) or anything that you have to open the motor for. In some classes 1.6 rockers are considered bolt-on however. Bolt on classes are usually called "Stock Internals" classes.

I wish you luck on running 12s man!!! Post up your progress!

Was it one of these:



Or one of these:



The top is the '05/'06 with 300 hp. The bottom is the 98-04 body style with 240 hp for 98, 260 hp for 99-04.

It is very possible to hit 12s in bolt-on TPIs....i dont see why its not?

my car hardly has a bolt on and ran 13.9, that is not bad for a nearly stock L98 with over 120k miles on her. Do i think my cars fast? hell no...but it takes off like a rocket, like said these cars are torque monsters, stop light to stop light racers...i have plenty of faith in them and i definently think they are 12 sec capable.

I know you talk of how an LT1 is better every shape/form whatever, but both different power bands...and LT1 4th gens weight at least a good 200 pounds more. My buddies '97 TA LT1/auto pretty much runs par with me up untill 60-70 mph.

Sorry i dont want to get too off topic but ive noticed you think these cars are no good whatsoever. lol, dont take what im saying too personally either i agree and respect your opinion on most the talk/arguments in this forum.

The new stang driver didnt know how to launch his car plain and simple, but good kill though!

It was definetely the newer 05/06 Mustang. All white with a pair of Bright Blue stripes running down the center. It was actually a pretty nice car and i'm not even into Mustangs all that much. (I'd still prefer a 5.0 over any of the newer Stangs).


Meh!! .... Luck is for rabbits.

No I don't think that at all. But you have to admit they're old technology. Hell my LT1 is old as well. L98s can hit high 12s I believe, but not past that. They just don't have the top end. They do have excellent potential as a stoplight warrior though! I don't have anything against L98s, just TPI

And for the record, my completely loaded '94 T/A weighed 3500 curb with a full tank of gas and a backpack and tools in it.

I know a bolt-on L98 can hit 12s, but I have yet to actually see it done. Have you seen anyone on TGO do it? I'm interested in their setup. We had a big thread about this in the organized racing board and no one could cough up timeslips or setups.

The closest person I've seen on the boards was Formul8. He was within like 3 or 4 tenths, and then gave up and bought a GTO. I don't know if it was an SD car or a MAF car, but I do know it was a Formula, and he was running a 3000+ stall. I personally think it IS possible, but it's not going to happen on your stock chip. To get there is going to take some serious computer tuning, it's gonna have to be really really dialed in. TRAXION, who has as much comp. tuning and overall L98 tuning know-how as anyone said that he thought it was possible, but it would take a pretty ideal run. One thing to consider is that I don't believe anyone has tried it on here with a manual trans.

(Here's your Mr. Obvious statement for the day --> ) I think it's really a matter of spending lots of time tuning and being a really good driver.

Also, I think an SD car would have the best shot as well. Many SD TPI cars hit 13s with only headers-back exhaust and drag radials.

if anything long tube headers would increase low end torque unless you are using really big primary pipes vs the stock pipes.


all around long tubes headers are just about better in every way

That's why these are on my floor! 1 3/4" primarys too.



You don't "loose" low end torque when changing to a less restrictive exhaust. What happens is the backpressure decreases and the tuned length of the exhaust essentially becomes shorter, raising your powerband to a higher RPM. You still have all of your power and in fact more of it. I compiled an entire FAQ on backpressure, it's in my sig and explains all of that.

I just woke up so please forgive me but wouldn't it be like a longer exhuast since that is what it is effectivly making lowe end torque stronger?

A high 12 may be possible with a bolt on L98. I ran 13.4 at 100 on slicks with:

FlowMaster Cat-Back, Catco cat, EdelBrock Headers, EdelBrock Intake Manifold and Runners [Both ported], Air Foil, TB Bypass, Plenum Ported, AFPR, Gutted Air Boxs, K&N Filter, HyperTech Chip , 160 Thermo, Re-mapped Injectors, MSN Ignition, Accel Rotor, Beefed Alternator, Modded MAF, 3.42 Rear End.


I think that if i got a good tc with a 2800 stall, custom chip, 3.73's and very good air/conditions, i could see a very very high 12.

If you've already hit 13.4s with a HyperTech chip, I think a really really good chip and your stall will put you into the 12s without a problem. Hypertech's timing tables are barely altered from the stock ones. They are a wa$te.

Well, I also have a reprogramable chip from tpis. I had the car dynoed with both chips and the ht chip showed better gains. At the track i also swaped the chips and didnt see any change.

Nioce Phil! I'll run you once my car is back together

I was able to snipe a used set of Hooker 2460's, which are the shortys with the old style 3 bolt header flange, for $66 off ebay. When I got them I found they had never been installed and had a few scratches on them, basically they were new. I bit the bullet and bought the Hooker Y pipe for $203.13, when I got it I realized what a nice piece it was and I could have never fabbed up a pipe that nice.

I got the headers ceramic coated by a friend for $100- not perfect show quailty but it was $175 cheaper than a local coating place and he did them inside and out.

I added a manual cutout where the cat used to live (it mysteriously vanished shortly after I had gotten the car) after the Y pipe.

Well I have an LB9, but I went from a 15.10 @ 92 to 14.70's with the cutout capped, then a 14.37@96.

Yes, headers will help tremendously- my point is used headers are plentiful and inexpensive.

Wow. Do you have a 5 speed LB9 car, or a peanut cam/auto one?

Oh sorry I should have mentioned- yes, it's an '88 LB9 5 speed, and after the 14.70's I uncapped it and ran a 14.42 followed by a cool down, then the 14.37@96.
Still 3.08 gears.

i was witness! this was a rather amazing run...though eric can stab and grab with the best of 'em...

I spanked a new GT 6spd by about a carlength with my old crappy L98 and 305 injectors on the stock tune.

She's changed a bit now

It is very cool that you ran into a mudstain owner who not only wasn't an a-hole, but used to own a GTA

And he even admits he should have kept it

I think I'd rather make a house payment and keep my thirdgen haha

Then again have you driven or more importantly spent more than a short drive in a new Mustang? I have and can tell you they are very nice cars. Im not talking a joy ride, passenger seat ride, or even test drive, Im talking driving in all types of traffic, around town, and such. Styling is subjective and so is how the car feels, but I can assure for the money, your getting a great car!

Most Mustang owners are a-holes, to thirdgen owners. I have alos run into Mustang owners who are a-holes to other Mustang owners for no other reason then they disagree on car things... It comes with all car models.

HAAAAA! I hope you haven't wasted your money on that crap! I bought a set of those headers years ago and they look exactly like that pic. I sold it as soon as I got it to some chump on ebay! They don't measure 1 5/8 more like 1 1/2 and that 2.5 y-pipe Just look up pics of Hooker headers and Y-pipe NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE! You can actually see what kind of crap MAC makes!

OH by the way I paid $286 for ceramic hooker headers shipped on ebay! Then called summit for $200 hooker Y-pipe

I've actually extensively driven an '05 GT. It was a nice car.. felt kind of slow.. but nice.

Ahh! I beat a 05 stang GT in my saturn ION 4 door the other day or he didn't realize I was racing him

Dang, mw that's not stabbin and grabbin that's just dumb luck! OK so I do have lots of practice with the car, though the loss of our much maligned crappy 1/8 mile strip has caused my track time to dwindle to near nothing.

I forgot to add the LB9 in question has 189,000 on it and smokes like a stack on cold start up.

My L98 car has a broken piston and bent #7 intake valve and I bought it that way. Maybe one day I'll take the tarp off, evict the bugs and mice and actually work on the thing.

hooker headers and a coating isnt 750 bucks... try more like 370 for the headers and 140 for the coating of them. thats just over 500.

anyway, nice runs man.. L98's are fairly strong thru 1st and part of second. second is kinda weak in my eyes but better gearin will help that and a good converter. still the ratios arent real tight. a 5 speed would be sweet on these cars.

Well, ThunderRacing sells the 2055's for $750 and that seems to be the average price give or take $10-20. They're great headers. but not worth that much money.

As for the person who says MAC sucks, I was looking at a set again the other day at my favourite speed shop, (they have them on display) and I still stand by my claim they are every bit as good as the Hookers. They are also, indeed 1/58 so I don't see how you could have come up with 1 1/2. ?

The y pipe is also virtually identical to the hookers aswell. How long ago did you purchase those headers? Could it be that MAC came out with a re-design? Cause there's no way in hell, you can say that the MAC headers I was looking at last Friday, are garbage 'cause they're awesome.

hell no, thats a rip off.. its not worth anywhere near that much. i'd buy them seperately and have them coated. Jet Hot will do it for 140 bucks for the headers if you mention your a Thirdgen.org member.

but hookers y pipe is a quality piece... very nice and smooth bends, good welds around the connection. fits good too on the car

Holy god. My Pacesetter LTs sold for $285 uncoated

Hey if you want them buy them because its your FAVORITE speed shop! If they look like that picture then there is no way you can compare them to Hooker as for the Y-pipe Hooker's Y-pipe is 3 inches not 2.5! We are telling you how to get these headers that are better for the same price but don't pay us any mind.

you can and will hit 12 in a stock internalled l98 see sig.
the aluminum drive shaft is new this year time in sig is without it also have new bigger injectors and a 2800 stall for it.
once those are in i go for dyno tuning. i think high 12 easy

for one thing I'm noticing a little longer collector which is going to help flow out a tad. the pipes seem to be a little better as far as how straight they are and all being fairly close to equal length. also with the flange I think the flat flange would be better rather then the slightly shrinking bowl style flange used on the max headers and the three bolt flange should be a better design

if you ask me I also like the idea of the flange being one solid piece as well rather then the two middle ones connect then the outer two ports just hanging there.

vs these



looks a lot different to me

Looks like a 13 second car to me...






J/K. I have been one of the people saying they can do it, and have been waiting to see a bolt on one get into the 12s.

Also those headers you show arent the same, or even for the same heads. The Macs have the GM style I II I pattern, and the others have what appears to be a Ford style I I I I pattern. Now unless some GM heads are set up that way (which Im sure there are) they arent GM headers, but if so they arent for the same heads.

Generation III and up have equal spaced exhaust ports...

Yes those are for newer style GM heads but the design is basically the same with the two middle runners closer together.

NO NO don't try to tell LT1FUN what to do let him go to his FAVORITE speed shop and buy those headers, let him learn a good life lesson.

[quote=25thmustang]Looks like a 13 second car to me...






J/K. I have been one of the people saying they can do it, and have been waiting to see a bolt on one get into the 12s.

yes it has been a long slow build 4.5 years.
and i know your kidding ive been around long time and like your advice and input.

my brother drives a stang and occasionally goes to the races with it. he is more into keeping it looking good than going fast. though he about crapped himself when i cleaned his mass airflow sensor wire. (q-tip w/ alcohol)
i'm sure you know this but there is no burn off self cleaning like g.m.
it can make a real difference in the cars performance.

the down side to that burn off self clean is reduced sensor life... OTOHyou dont hear much about failed maf's...

'ya know, you're really starting to come off as a guy with a serious chip on his shoulder and I don't know why you're acting as if you've been offended by my liking a different brand header. Relax there, chief, you'll live longer.

That's the second time you've quoted me, and for some reason you seem to always capatilize my use of the word "favourite" when describing my local speed shop.

I never said I was getting the MAC's because they were at my "favourite" speed shop, I said I liked what I saw, having seen them on display on my last visit there. Perhaps you should read my posts a little more carefully next time.

Also, I don't need a "life lesson" from anybody. Especially, when it comes to something as simple as "headers". Perhaps you should check either of my webpage's and see what else I own to get an idea of my experience with modding an Fbody. I'm not some noob who doesn't know squat about cars, so you should't act as if I am one.

1993 Pontiac Firebird - Philip's Pontiac "Formula Firebird"
Webshots Community - lt1fun


But since we're on the topic of "life lessons". I figured I'd give you this little tip as I think you could learn from it.

"Opinions" are like @ss-holes. Everybody has one, and most of them are full of sh#t. Untill you (or anybody else for that matter) can show a single dynograph clearly and undeniably, showing an increase in either HP or torque, or a time slip showing a reduction in E.T by switching to Hookers over another brand, your opinion on the 2055's is just that... an OPINION!!

But then again, as the old saying goes, "Welcome to the world of the internet - where everybody's a mechanic and owns a 9 second daily driver"...

That's why I always find these arguments so amusing. You have one side favouring a certain brand or product or whatever it may be, and swear up and down it's "superior" in ever way to something else, but no one ever has any proof to back up their claims.
I've been around long enough and have gone through enough exhaust systems to realise that on anything short of a 500HP motor, a cat-back is a catback. PERIOD! It doesn't matter what brand it is. The same goes for headers. A shory is a shorty. A LT is an LT. Anything will be better than the stock exhaust so by your exhaust based on how it sounds, and your headers based on fit/finish. Ignore all the manufacturer's claims of being better than "brand X". It's all marketing.

If you think you're going to see, or feel any difference in performance by switching from 1 brand header to the next (should they both have the same size primaries/collectors) or one cat-back to another, you'll be sorly disapointed. (But then again, people see/feel what they want to see/feel)

I've gone through so many headers and cat-backs in my life, it's ridiculous.
You clearly favour Hooker and you have every right to. You think Hooker is the best and that's great. Power to you. Clearly you and I disagree on the issue of MAC's headers so let's just leave it at that.

My decision isn't final yet and I'll be placing my order either tomorrow or early next week and I'll post some pic's when they arrive.

Hmm I never cleaned my stocker, had 125,000 on it and went 13.0 before I changed it. Actually havent read much into cleaning them as my Pro M was near new when I bought it. Something I should look into though!

I disagree on a header is a header. have seen a few different ones on dyno (not thirdgen related or in magazines either) and have been able to see some differences between a few of them hear and there.

Well there is usually a big difference between cheap headers and expensive headers as far as quality of the material and fitment/leaks go, but I have yet to see a $900 set of kooks make more hp than a $300 set of pacesetters....

My point exactly. When you buy a set of headers, be it shorty's mid-length's or LT's, base you decision on the headers fit and finish rather than any perceived "HP improvements" over another brand.

Oh, and I plan on getting those $900 kooks for my Firebird this year to replace my JetHots. The 1 7/8 primaries should show an improvement over the 1/34 I have now. Plus their stainless steel (which is the main reason I'm switching- durability)