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one thing i must say is that a 400hp TPI motor (given traction) will beat a 400hp gen III. remember on the track, torque means just as much as hp.
the average 400hp TPI will make 450-500ftlbs of torque! while a gen III will NORMALY make only 350-400ftlbs. and on the track that means lower ETs for the tpi . but i must say if i had the chance i would take a lsx over a sbc any day. i just like the TPI because its always the under-dog.
true but it takes alot of money to get a TPI car with 350 cubes to make 400hp. an ls1 will dyno 400 motor hp with exhaust and a lid and tune
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true but it takes alot of money to get a TPI car with 350 cubes to make 400hp. an ls1 will dyno 400 motor hp with exhaust and a lid and tune
not really a lot. sdpc did a stock 350 tpi with moded vortec heads (unported) and gm LT4 hot cam and roller rockers, with a stock tune to 375hp. take that and throw a set of runners and port the base with a good tune. i think that would be well on its way to 400hp. all for about 2k.
still a lsx could easely surpass that.
i mean realistly your talking about a bolt-on lsx would beat even a health-ly moded tpi. you know that whole bit (apples to oranges) that is the sad truth =(
the scoggin dickey motor crate motor is 357 hp and it already had edelbrock runners/base.
even with better flowing heads (more expensive) and bigger cam, its still alot of money just to make 400hp. sure it can and has been done. but throw a HSR on there or lt1 intake and that motor quickly jumps to easy 450hp. thats abit more respectable. TPI leaves so much on the table.
Ls1 has the heads and intake to make hp with. i'm just sayin i dont see the point in spending 5-6 grand on a motor to make near 400hp while u can spend that on another motor and make 450-500
ive read over on ls1tech (never seen this firsthand) that usually fbodies are running quicker ets then the gtos (LS2).. b/c of the weight and IRS people dont USUALLY bust out low low 13s
__________________
2001 Camaro SS, Hurst M6,H/C/I old #s: 395rwhp/366ftlbs
With the LG4 in my 82, I've thought why waste time with a TPI or an LT1 motor, and wait until I have the cash for an LSx.
Simply better design of the bottom end and heads. Are you aware that the L92 heads, as cast, flow 330cfm on the intake....
I say, save up your cash and do a LS1 swap. Then when you got more money heads/cam it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz327
my friend has an old 327 in a 72 c10 and ive seen it smoke ls2gto's
It's perfectly realistic that a C10 could beat one in a street race. Mods might be there that you don't know about though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
i'm just sayin i dont see the point in spending 5-6 grand on a motor to make near 400hp while u can spend that on another motor and make 450-500
And you don't need to spend that much on a LS1...
And I think, all of you dudes need to catch up to the rest of the world and start using RWHP numbers… Go to a dyno, you’ll get a print-out of your powerband, and it’s not expensive…
No denying LSX engines are great. But in my opinion, once you get into internals, it's anyone’s game. One of the best engines to have in stock form for sure.
__________________ 1988 IROC-Z 14.0@98mph 2.07 60 Ft (Stock setup)
L98 now with a little AFR, and a bit of comp cam. - [The new "slightly" faster L98]
ive read over on ls1tech (never seen this firsthand) that usually fbodies are running quicker ets then the gtos (LS2).. b/c of the weight and IRS people dont USUALLY bust out low low 13s
here couple vids of races between an f-body and the goat.
And I think, all of you dudes need to catch up to the rest of the world and start using RWHP numbers… Go to a dyno, you’ll get a print-out of your powerband, and it’s not
i'm just talkin about motors... comparing motor to motor so i used crank hp. cuz rwhp varies from car to car, trans/type of rear/etc
My LS1 did low 13's stock, 11.73 nothing but bolt ons. A big stall helps these motors alot, gets it up in the power band faster. It did 322 rwhp with just a cat back, 347 with most bolt ons.
well our cars are not exactly colllector status...i mean 9K is mint and great car. worth a good bit i suppose, but if you want ls1 in it, go for it...just save the old stuff if you ever need to go back to matchin numbers/motor/etc
I guess I'll have to expalin that I THINK IT RESEMBLES AN IMPORT in certain ways. I don't like the body style or else I would own one and wouldn't be on a thirdgen.org website to talk about it.
It's hard to make a LS1 sound mean...however I heard one with true duals w/flowmaster single chambers dumped and man did it sound bad ***...
And that's going on the cheap end! I have the stainless flowtech headers with x-pipe and corsa exhaust on my C5, and I get more complements on the sound of my car then anything else. More "races" end before they start on the street just from the rev of the engine.
I guess I'll have to expalin that I THINK IT RESEMBLES AN IMPORT in certain ways. I don't like the body style or else I would own one and wouldn't be on a thirdgen.org website to talk about it.
I love my thirdgen and I wouldn't trade it for the world! Notice I've owned mine for twelve years. However as a former product designer, I don't see where you see anything "import" on a gen 4. Examples, Gen 4 has checkerboard or honeycomb tailights, imports have those round altezza or "euro" tailights. Gen 4 has bodylines, imports have little to ZERO bodylines. Gen 4 has a big butt with wide tires, imports have little butts with smaller noses and wimpy little tires. Gen 4 sounds beautiful, imports sound like elephant farts. I can go on and on.
I mean, if I'm not mistaken, aren't the chassis of the gen 3 and gen 4 the same, hence the fitting of the seats from either or? But you are entitled to your opinion and I respect it. Keep the thirdgen alive and running!
I own 3rd and 4th gens and I have to say I love the 3rd gen looks, I think they're timeless no matter what anyone says. The 4th gen looks great too though, and there is NO WAY you should be able to look at a 4th gen T/A or SS and mistake it for being anything other than V8, RWD, AMERICAN, and BAD ***. The more angular LT1 cars especially look like straight-up jet fighters on wheels. Gorgous, and DEFINETLY not foreign looking.
__________________ 91 Firebird, red
Sport Appearance Package, 305 TBI, 700R4
Accel 8.8 mm wires, Edelbrock open element, T-56 Energy Suspension tranny mount, Blue Streak distributor cap / rotor, Thrush glasspack, 1 1/2 cowl hood, Craigar SS mags - no times
95 Z28, black
355 LT1, T56
Forged crank / pistons, LT4 cam / intake, electric fuel pump, ported stock TB, KYB shocks, SPEC clutch, Flowmaster muffler, gutted cat
old combo - 11.6 @ 125 MPH *w/ Hoosier slicks, MSD, 125 hp shot*
engine being rebuilt
I own 3rd and 4th gens and I have to say I love the 3rd gen looks, I think they're timeless no matter what anyone says. The 4th gen looks great too though, and there is NO WAY you should be able to look at a 4th gen T/A or SS and mistake it for being anything other than V8, RWD, AMERICAN, and BAD ***. The more angular LT1 cars especially look like straight-up jet fighters on wheels. Gorgous, and DEFINETLY not foreign looking.
most ls1's i have heard sound mean... i think they sound better than any traditional small block i ever heard!. slp loudmouth on a cammed car sounds pretty mean...mufflex 4inch on a cammed car sounds even better. true duals with bullets or 1 chambers is most incredible sound i ever heard
and the WS6 is one of the better lookin cars i seen in a while...just plain mean looking
The one thing I am worried about when I build my 355 for 400hp is those LS1's I keep reading how they are so fast and running high 13's out of the factory. But what I am wondering is where does that leave them as far as reasonable average budget upgrades? Can you build up on an LS1 like you can to make more power on a SBC?
yup. its actually easier on a genIII+.. EVERYTHING is easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbowilson
John Force gets his a$$ handed to him too! My opinion is you can make a more powerful engine for less. LS1 is a great engine but if you buy the engine new thats over $4000 for a 350 to 400hp power output and upgraded parts are more exspensive. For $3500 you can get a 400 sbc with AFR heads and make over 500 hp with torque that will kill a LS1.
On the other hand the LS1 design can get you more gas milage but I don't care about that for my weekend warrior. My saturn gets me by through the week just fine.
All you have to do is decide on what you want out of your car a low 12sec or 11sec ride. There are hundreds of different combos that can get you there.
for $3500, you can get a LS1 complete with PCM and all, PLUS the 6spd trans that comes with it..... toss in another $300 and you'll have a cammed LS1 making just as much power as your 400.... with better manners, better MPG, and more room to grow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanhunter44
An LS1 is a very well put together package, but in the end whoever has more money is going to have the faster motor. It's still a 347 cid motor, and displacement determines potential. If I was building a hotrod I'd go with an old school SBC 7 days out of the week. The LS1 has potential as a daily driver to me, but otherwise it's too expensive and just doesn't have the same feel of an older block. Plus they sound god awful.
displacement isnt the end all of potential... important piece? perhaps, but the heads play a MUCH larger role then the displacement. you can keep your 400ci, and have crap heads (like... any common 23* head) and make less power...
i'll stick to my much cheaper genIII parts. if you want to argue price, remember.. the cams, pistons, rods, ect cost the same..... the machinework costs the same... but your AFRs cost 2,000... mine cost $600 for the pair. (L92 or ported LS1/LS6) and flow MORE... plus my EFI stock intake can remain and still really outflow your TPI, so thats more money.. unless you go carb.. then you just have to buy a carb, intake, and a distributor to go with that....
seee... when you add it all up, FOR THE POWER, the LS1 is cheaper... the question is, can you afford the power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie
I don't know guys. Personally I don't care much for the LS1. Impressive? Maybe. But to improve power, you still have to do the same things you did in the past with any engine. Just with the LS1, the baseline is higher.
....stock heads,bolt ons & cam i put down 395rwhp/366ftlbs
In comparison, my '03 Cobra has only a cat-back and a CAI. Big whoop, right? I put down 420 rwhp and 400 ft/lbs. Stock block, heads, cams, intake, blower, etc....and it is not pullied nor does it have nitrous. And for those who don't know, this is a 281 cubic inch engine!
I know of guys at SVTPerformance and at Modular Fords that run 580+ hp on a daily-driven Cobra and amazingly, that's with stock heads and cams. To me, it's very impressive to make that kind of power with true bolt-ons -- nothing internal. So in a way, I really like the modular Ford design.
And if that's not enough, the 2007 Shelby, rated at 500 hp / 480 ft/lbs, can easily be modded with true bolt-ons. First, it's a 330 cubic inch block with Ford GT heads (32-valves) and an Eaton blower making 8-psig boost. Rear wheel numbers put it around 440 hp. Then there are companies already tinkering with pullies, etc. How about 563 rwhp>>
To me, this is awesome. But to each his own, I guess.
Then there's my TT 305......no stats yet though...but with high hopes (600+ hp???). And when I'm done, it better run circles around my Cobra...
give me a 4"+ bore genIV and some LS7 heads, and i'll make more power NA then your eaton m112 can flow when ported.... plus mine will STILL idle nice and behave on the street... have you seen what Katech, TSP, SD, ect are doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT89TA
the ls9 is a 6.3l dohc with a supercharger. It supposed to be the next engine for the corvette
it is NOT DOHC.... its still a pushrod V8.. similar to the rest of the gen IVs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87_TA
18* Heads are far superior to ours, their stock heads flow what my competition ported AFRs do
thats the biggest secret to the motor.. its all in the heads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyBear
not quite as cheap as a gen II-III sbc is for a similar part.
you didnt mean to, but you said it right.... the genIII is CHEAPER for a similar part... lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgenZ
one thing i must say is that a 400hp TPI motor (given traction) will beat a 400hp gen III. remember on the track, torque means just as much as hp.
the average 400hp TPI will make 450-500ftlbs of torque! while a gen III will NORMALY make only 350-400ftlbs. and on the track that means lower ETs for the tpi . but i must say if i had the chance i would take a lsx over a sbc any day. i just like the TPI because its always the under-dog.
bullsh!t.... know why?
because theres no such thing as a 400hp TPI motor (N/A atleast..)
by the time you replace THE ENTIRE INDUCTION OF THE MOTOR... from the airfilter, to throttlebody to intake (upper, lower and runners) to the heads and the cam...... you dont even have a TPI motor anymore.. you just have another EFI SBC...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
true but it takes alot of money to get a TPI car with 350 cubes to make 400hp. an ls1 will dyno 400 motor hp with exhaust and a lid and tune
not quite.... they dyno between 305 to 320 at the rear wheels.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by IROCThe5.7L
No denying LSX engines are great. But in my opinion, once you get into internals, it's anyone’s game. One of the best engines to have in stock form for sure.
actually, once you get into the internals, thats where the LS1 really shines.
all of a sudden an LS1 doesnt displace just 346 anymore.. it can go 383.. 402...408.. 415... 427...454... or like sams, 500+.... how much money do you want to spend?
on the cheap? for the same internals, its roughly the same price for the equiv SBC. and since stroke doesnt cost more when you're already buying a crank, most guys opt for a 383 at a min...
the heads can be bought new, ported (that is, no core) for $600... and they flow more then your 23* SBC AFRs, trickflows, ect....
and with the better heads, and more accurate EFI, your can get away with a bigger cam.
and a big plus, the base circle of the cam is MUCH bigger... so the cam profile is more agressive..
id say you can add a windage tray and a better baffled oil pan, but the LS1 cant... it already has them....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
true but it takes alot of money to get a TPI car with 350 cubes to make 400hp. an ls1 will dyno 400 motor hp with exhaust and a lid and tune
not quite.... they dyno between 305 to 320 at the rear wheels.....
The ls1 with full exhaust and a lid along with a tune is capable of producing 375 hp at the wheels.
not quite.... they dyno between 305 to 320 at the rear wheels.....
i was stating motor hp as in crank hp...not rwhp. TPI ishard to get 400crank hp while LS1 is there with just lid and deleted accessories or exhaust lol
I own 3rd and 4th gens and I have to say I love the 3rd gen looks, I think they're timeless no matter what anyone says. The 4th gen looks great too though, and there is NO WAY you should be able to look at a 4th gen T/A or SS and mistake it for being anything other than V8, RWD, AMERICAN, and BAD ***. The more angular LT1 cars especially look like straight-up jet fighters on wheels. Gorgous, and DEFINETLY not foreign looking.
Take a look from the rear of a 98 up TA some time and tell me if that rounded corner *** end doesn't look *****.........
IMO they are a poorly designed vehicle except for the powerplant. Engine 1/2 way up under the dash, very hard to work on. Have to pull the whole front cradle to get engine out. Can you engine do a cam swap in the car on
one of these without pulling the nose off ?
Interior extremely cramped, one I drove you couldn't get your hand between the door and the seat to adjust the seat. Just can't get over the import looking rear end of the car. It needed to be more pronounced on the corners like the 3rd gens or the LTI cars. NICE ENGINE, ugly car....to each his won.
Wow, well I just spent about an hour reading all these posts here. All I want to say is that I am happy to have a carbed SBC. Someday I would like to have an LSX in a DD kinda car. As I see it, I couldn't afford the LSX stuff back when I started to build my car, now... maybe, but de fnot then. My motor makes a solid 510HP and is FULLY forged. I spent $6400 to my door. If I want I can blow or turbo this thing, no problem. And just adjust my carb. I am only 22 but man I love the old school feel of the carb and so on.
I am also not stupid and know that LSX cars are fast and modern. I allready have my plans in action to start saving up for my 5th gen camaro.
Take a look from the rear of a 98 up TA some time and tell me if that rounded corner *** end doesn't look *****.........
IMO they are a poorly designed vehicle except for the powerplant. Engine 1/2 way up under the dash, very hard to work on. Have to pull the whole front cradle to get engine out. Can you engine do a cam swap in the car on
one of these without pulling the nose off ?
Interior extremely cramped, one I drove you couldn't get your hand between the door and the seat to adjust the seat. Just can't get over the import looking rear end of the car. It needed to be more pronounced on the corners like the 3rd gens or the LTI cars. NICE ENGINE, ugly car....to each his won.
teh whole front cradle?!
***!! the last 4 engine swaps ive done were all wrong!!! i just pulled it out of the top like every other car... and man was i lazy.. i did it with the hood still bolted on!
and thoes last 7 cam swaps we did... all wrong.. we left the nose on.. the ac condensor in... i mean hell, we did the whole thing, springs in all in 2.5 to 4 hours, depending on the number of people we had ( 1 to 4) at the time....
and man, it was a slack job.. we didnt even pull the intake manifold off...
lol, you can slam the looks... thats debatable.
you can say its cramped (although in the front seats that opinion very questionable...)
but dont go spewing BS about working on them when you're obviously ignorant on the subject.
theres more room to work on them under the cowl then there is room under the hood of a 2nd or 1stgen... (if you dont get what i mean, go see how far the hood actually opens on one of them...)
yes its diffrent.. but its not hard.. and its MUCH easier then the LT1.. lol.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennisbernal91z
Wow, well I just spent about an hour reading all these posts here. All I want to say is that I am happy to have a carbed SBC. Someday I would like to have an LSX in a DD kinda car. As I see it, I couldn't afford the LSX stuff back when I started to build my car, now... maybe, but de fnot then. My motor makes a solid 510HP and is FULLY forged. I spent $6400 to my door. If I want I can blow or turbo this thing, no problem. And just adjust my carb. I am only 22 but man I love the old school feel of the carb and so on.
I am also not stupid and know that LSX cars are fast and modern. I allready have my plans in action to start saving up for my 5th gen camaro.
510 at the crank or at the wheels?
Last edited by MrDude_1; 10-17-2006 at 04:47 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
i've dynoed 325rwhp/342rwtq with only a slp lid, smooth bellows and k&n filter, through clogged cats. 330rwhp 341rwtq with an addition to my e-cutout, through clogged cats. both times were untuned. i dunno how much is that at the flywheel though. anyways heres vids of numerous corvettes/f-body dynos.
now heres a motor u don't want to mess around with. all from a good old school iron 383. 40+ psi on c16
__________________ 1989 trans am T.P.I 305 (LB9) *Sold to 87tpi*
New ride: 02 pontiac trans am M6 ws-6 Mods bolt on's and a big vacuum leak!!!
My 510HP is at the flywheel right now. But I have not got it to the dyno for real yet. It is going as soon as it is done being painted. Then I will tune it there, and see if I can get a little more out of her, here and there. Maybe ignition and thats pretty much all I can do with this set up... I am getting plenty of air, I have a big cam, and I have what can be considered an open exhaust with mufflers... So for now it will be what it is... Lack of $ to redo anything.... But next year, I am thinking about a procharger, or something like that. I just really don't like turbos.
Then I can easily have my goal of 500 at the wheels and be more streetable.
But for now, she is my first car, and will be fun in this trim for a year or so.
thats thru.....LS1's have only been into the high 6's so far... and i think small block chevies have been past that point. but i know big blocks have been. big block > LS1
Quote:
i've dynoed 325rwhp/342rwtq with only a slp lid, smooth bellows and k&n filter, through clogged cats. 330rwhp 341rwtq with an addition to my e-cutout, through clogged cats.
those are nice numbers... my buddies car has a factory SLP SS car...SLp lid, no cats, SLP catback and a local guys tune...made 333/348
whassup sideways... 395rwhp is lookin good eh? bolt ons huh? what cam u got?
hows it going man.. yeah 395 for now well i have a cam as well think i forgot to add that to the sig ill go ahead and do that.. my cam is from a company called texas speed. there pretty big on ls1s.. nice sponser over at ls1tech. the specs on my cam: 232/234 .595/.598 112
im lacking some low end right now due to the stock 3.42s(dont get me wrong it likes to get sideways going from 1-2nd gear), but once i add some gears thatll make up for it! top end pulls like a mutha trucka!!! highway is where she shines.
Last edited by Sidewayz28; 10-18-2006 at 09:24 PM.
A friend of mine dynoed 324 and 340ish Tq at around 1600 feet asl. Mods were a SLP Loudmouth cat-back and a K&N filter. Oh, yea, he did the free ram air mod, as well. Car was a 00 Formula M6. Another buddy with a 00 SS makes 440 hp nad 400 tq with a Procharger running 6-7 psi and headers/cat-back.
I agree with comparing the s/c modular Ford with LSX. Apples and oranges. N/A for N/A, GM owns Ford in most cases. Besides, have you seen a Mustang lately? Low CID with alot of boost....sounds like coughimportcough. Not that boost is a bad thing, I just don't think it's a good comparison to set an engine build for boost to one that is not.
As for the 6.2 engine (LS3) in the 5th Gen Camaro... I've read 450 HP for under 30K will be available.
The S/C version (LS9 for the Vette) will produce a modest 605. heh
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
Last edited by 91_5.7_TPI; 11-07-2006 at 09:49 PM.
I was watching the SCAA racing on the speed channel racing
The Wrx was 1 and 2 and close 3rd was a Bmw.
The American muscle Camaro and Firebirds where not doing very well
Dodge Srt neon was in front holding them off.
Its embarrasing to see those 4 bangers winning...lol
I was watching the SCAA racing on the speed channel racing
The Wrx was 1 and 2 and close 3rd was a Bmw.
The American muscle Camaro and Firebirds where not doing very well
Dodge Srt neon was in front holding them off.
Its embarrasing to see those 4 bangers winning...lol
Why is it embarrasing? Fbody's aren't built for SSCA racing. Get that WRX and the overrated POS BMW on the strip and see what happens?
Different cars are built for different racing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
big block > LS1
Hello Captain Obvious
__________________ ***89 GTA*** L98, P1-SC procharger, 24# SVO's, wideband O2, Edelbrock TES headers and catback, SFC's, Wonderbar and some other goodies...
Last edited by fly89gta; 12-01-2006 at 06:08 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Why is it embarrasing? Fbody's aren't built for SSCA racing.
i wouldnt say that. stock for stock i guess they may not be the best handling cars but the SCCA 1LE irocz were quite capable cars. and it doesnt take much to make a 4th gen fbody handle extremely well. springs and shocks and tires is a great start.
i wouldnt say that. stock for stock i guess they may not be the best handling cars but the SCCA 1LE irocz were quite capable cars. and it doesnt take much to make a 4th gen fbody handle extremely well. springs and shocks and tires is a great start.
Not say they're not capable, my 4thgen handled like a dream with the suspension stuff I did, so did my 89. But, as I said they weren't built with autocrossing in mind. They were built for blasting down the 1/4 mile strip.
__________________ ***89 GTA*** L98, P1-SC procharger, 24# SVO's, wideband O2, Edelbrock TES headers and catback, SFC's, Wonderbar and some other goodies...
. but i must say if i had the chance i would take a lsx over a sbc any day. i just like the TPI because its always the under-dog.
1992 B4C
gasbike!
Notice I've owned mine for twelve years. However as a former product designer, I don't see where you see anything "import" on a gen 4. Examples, Gen 4 has checkerboard or honeycomb tailights, imports have those round altezza or "euro" tailights. Gen 4 has bodylines, imports have little to ZERO bodylines. Gen 4 has a big butt with wide tires, imports have little butts with smaller noses and wimpy little tires. Gen 4 sounds beautiful, imports sound like elephant farts. I can go on and on. 
all from a good old school iron 383. 40+ psi on c16 
