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The one thing I am worried about when I build my 355 for 400hp is those LS1's I keep reading how they are so fast and running high 13's out of the factory. But what I am wondering is where does that leave them as far as reasonable average budget upgrades? Can you build up on an LS1 like you can to make more power on a SBC?
Most LS1 cars around here run _low_ 13s bone stock. It usually takes an exhaust and maybe some gears to put them into the 12s. Upgrades? Anything you do to an LS1 gets you alot more hp than if you did the same thing to our TPI motors, and pretty much any Gen II-III SBC.
To put it simply, LS1s are amazing powerplants.
__________________ 1988 Trans Am 355. 33,000 original miles.
355ci 10:1, Holley 750DP, Summit Stage 2 intake, AFR 180cc Street Eliminators, Comp Cams XR282 HR10, MAC shorties, Mufflex 4" exhaust, Circle D 3500 stall
Best ET: 12.26@108.44, 1.67 60ft
Best MPH: 12.57@112.5, 2.0 60ft
A heads/cam ls1 will make more power than a heads/cam sbc, you can't really compare a ls1 to a sbc. You can port the stock ls1 heads and get a decent cam and make 400 hp with a ls1, yeah thats cheap but anyway you look at it when you include the price of the car and engine work a 12 sec. thirdgen car will be cheaper than a 12 sec ls1 car.
Thats my , if your building a 400 hp car race cars around your power range.
It is just a more modern and better design.Doesn't mean you can't beat them.LS1 heads flow pretty good to begin with.Plus the motor is lighter.There are many benifits to an LS1 but some engine builders tell me that they prefer iron blocks.Put it this way 450HP with an LS1 with the stock cubic inches is normal for head and cam mods.I have seen many guys run high 11s on motor alone and still be a daily driver.That being said 400hp is still a very respectable small block for a budget daily driver. I know a lot of guys with 400+ cubic inch small blocks or big blocks that would kill a 450hp LS1.All comes down to money.How much do you want to spend?Plus there are bigger problems then cam and head modded LS1's,like modded 05 cobras pulling 600hp and they haven't even touched the heads or cam.There will always be a faster car unless your John Force.
The one thing I am worried about when I build my 355 for 400hp is those LS1's I keep reading how they are so fast and running high 13's out of the factory. But what I am wondering is where does that leave them as far as reasonable average budget upgrades? Can you build up on an LS1 like you can to make more power on a SBC?
don't get mad get even...you can build one hell of a sbc for less than an ls1..high compression big cam..etc..but for a daily driver an ls1 is king..all depends on what you want
John Force gets his a$$ handed to him too! My opinion is you can make a more powerful engine for less. LS1 is a great engine but if you buy the engine new thats over $4000 for a 350 to 400hp power output and upgraded parts are more exspensive. For $3500 you can get a 400 sbc with AFR heads and make over 500 hp with torque that will kill a LS1.
On the other hand the LS1 design can get you more gas milage but I don't care about that for my weekend warrior. My saturn gets me by through the week just fine.
All you have to do is decide on what you want out of your car a low 12sec or 11sec ride. There are hundreds of different combos that can get you there.
"Cam only" LS1 cars can hit 400rwhp provided they have the right bolt on mods too. They're great motors that can make damn good power and be totally streetable.
Like someone else said though you're not comparing apples to apples. You have a thirdgen that you're building a motor for it's of course going to be cheaper than buying a building a LS1. Now, let's say you have your average run of the mill SBC and a LS1 sitting next to each other and you have X amount of money to spend to mod them, I'd take the LS1 any day of the week. There's no need for aftermarket heads to make huge power. Hell some guys will go with 6.0 or 5.3 heads.
However, if you're talking overall cost where you have to buy the motor SBC is the way to go since they're a dime a dozen with a ton of aftermarket parts support.
__________________ ***89 GTA*** L98, P1-SC procharger, 24# SVO's, Cobalt boost/fuel pressure gauges, AEM wideband O2, ported plenum, Edelbrock TES headers and catback, SFC's, Wonderbar and some other goodies...
"Cam only" LS1 cars can hit 400rwhp provided they have the right bolt on mods too. They're great motors that can make damn good power and be totally streetable.
Like someone else said though you're not comparing apples to apples. You have a thirdgen that you're building a motor for it's of course going to be cheaper than buying a building a LS1. Now, let's say you have your average run of the mill SBC and a LS1 sitting next to each other and you have X amount of money to spend to mod them, I'd take the LS1 any day of the week. There's no need for aftermarket heads to make huge power. Hell some guys will go with 6.0 or 5.3 heads.
However, if you're talking overall cost where you have to buy the motor SBC is the way to go since they're a dime a dozen with a ton of aftermarket parts support.
I agree with him I would take a LS1 any day of the week over a 1 Gen sbc but that cost factor is big! Unless you can get a LS1 cheap I still would go with the 1 Gen block.
i agree im so pleased with my ls1 its not even funny.. put it this way... full bolt ons, + the cam i just put in should get me 400rwhp. CAM ONLY. stock heads.
lilbowilson- dont mean to start ****.. but if u put 3500$ into an ls1 i see an *** whipping to the SBC.
you can build any engine to make power... sbc is probably the cheepest but reliablity would be an issue once you start getting crazy... same with an LS1 though... a real big thing is FI or carb ive seen carbed 355 engines pushing over 600hp N/A they are crazy as hell and not great on the street but still try to find a LS1 that can do that with stock fuel injection setup... in the long run a SBC is cheeper and can produce the same numbers... really your looking at reliability and tunning as a factor eaither motor in the end is fine just depends what you wanna do... rip it up at the track on the weekends... go with a SBC built up... daily driver thats still a little crazy but you dont want to leave you stranded go LS1
An LS1 is a very well put together package, but in the end whoever has more money is going to have the faster motor. It's still a 347 cid motor, and displacement determines potential. If I was building a hotrod I'd go with an old school SBC 7 days out of the week. The LS1 has potential as a daily driver to me, but otherwise it's too expensive and just doesn't have the same feel of an older block. Plus they sound god awful.
Once you get around the 500-550 rwhp mark, you'll wish you went SBC if you're on a budget. At that point you're hitting the limit of stock LS1 internals, as well as the 4L60E for an A4. The 10 bolt's limit was already hit when stock , especially for the M6 cars. Mine has held up to 1.6x 60s so far, but on 555Rs.
They're good for a "jack of all trades" type car: daily driver, decent fuel economy, quick, etc.
PHAT, consider the Bassani stainless true duals. I've been very pleased with this system since I installed it, as it sounds incredible even with the stock manifolds. Long tubes, and a catted-Y (cut, of course) will eventually be adapted, and with the recent installation of my LSK lobed cam, it should sound freaking awesome...
Once you get around the 500-550 rwhp mark, you'll wish you went SBC if you're on a budget. At that point you're hitting the limit of stock LS1 internals...
I'm not laughing at what you are saying, I'm just laughing at how far we've come. I mean, to throw the concept of 550 RWHP around so loosely, while being the LS1's factory limitation... is, well, insane. I mean, one would have to be a freaking maniac to think that that isn't sufficient power for the street.
I'm not laughing at what you are saying, I'm just laughing at how far we've come. I mean, to throw the concept of 550 RWHP around so loosely, while being the LS1's factory limitation... is, well, insane. I mean, one would have to be a freaking maniac to think that that isn't sufficient power for the street.
PHAT, consider the Bassani stainless true duals. I've been very pleased with this system since I installed it, as it sounds incredible even with the stock manifolds. Long tubes, and a catted-Y (cut, of course) will eventually be adapted, and with the recent installation of my LSK lobed cam, it should sound freaking awesome...
Ya i heard that system and it sounds awesome, but the cops in my area are anal. couple of times i had cops rolling down their windows and listening to my exaust system (it was stock at the time). Since im going with a stroked heads/cam ls2 in my car I like the car to be as quiet as possible. So in conclusion, im keeping my stock exaust system with my electric cutout (for track use)
i think my exhaust setup is perfect. i run long tubes, a texas speed catted y pipe, then a hooker cat back. the hooker has a nice throaty sound at low rpms and doesnt get crazy till WOT. but once u hit the higher rpms like around 6000 she starts SCREAMING like a little biznitch
i agree im so pleased with my ls1 its not even funny.. put it this way... full bolt ons, + the cam i just put in should get me 400rwhp. CAM ONLY. stock heads.
lilbowilson- dont mean to start ****.. but if u put 3500$ into an ls1 i see an *** whipping to the SBC.
Your forgetting that he dosen't have either right now so if he puts that much into a LS1 he would have a used stock LS1 engine with X amount of miles on it. A new one cost $4500 or more. An if your talking about him buying a LS1 camaro/firebird then you know he will be broke or have a car payment. Then he also has to pay more on insurance too.
Or he can get a 383/400 shortblock and get some AFR/TFS heads then throw on a Carb or HSR intake on. That would be a real torque monster!
Buttttt! He lives in NJ I don't know what kind of laws they have so the LS1 engine just might be best!
I don't know guys. Personally I don't care much for the LS1. Impressive? Maybe. But to improve power, you still have to do the same things you did in the past with any engine. Just with the LS1, the baseline is higher.
....stock heads,bolt ons & cam i put down 395rwhp/366ftlbs
In comparison, my '03 Cobra has only a cat-back and a CAI. Big whoop, right? I put down 420 rwhp and 400 ft/lbs. Stock block, heads, cams, intake, blower, etc....and it is not pullied nor does it have nitrous. And for those who don't know, this is a 281 cubic inch engine!
I know of guys at SVTPerformance and at Modular Fords that run 580+ hp on a daily-driven Cobra and amazingly, that's with stock heads and cams. To me, it's very impressive to make that kind of power with true bolt-ons -- nothing internal. So in a way, I really like the modular Ford design.
And if that's not enough, the 2007 Shelby, rated at 500 hp / 480 ft/lbs, can easily be modded with true bolt-ons. First, it's a 330 cubic inch block with Ford GT heads (32-valves) and an Eaton blower making 8-psig boost. Rear wheel numbers put it around 440 hp. Then there are companies already tinkering with pullies, etc. How about 563 rwhp>>
Even though I've owned both small and big blocks, I prefer smaller displacement engines. Years before I bought my Cobra, my IROC-Z was supercharged with a 305. Frankly I like boost. Then I picked up the Cobra and the more I studied it, the more I liked Ford's way of doing things. Comparing the specs of my now twin turboed 305 to either the 281 (4.6L) or new 330 (5.4L) in the Shelby, it's amazing how similar they are. If someone saw the specs of my 305, they'd swear I "copied" Ford. Let it be known that I built my 305 years before I knew anything about blown Fords. So do I have the blown Ford bug? Yeah, but I also have the blown Chevy bug too....more now than ever since I just got my IROC-Z on the road after a 2-1/2 year hiatus...
Oh who knows. When the fifth gen Camaro comes out, maybe it will have some blown small block..... not that I would get one because I love the new Shelby.... reminds me of my first two cars I owned... yes, I'm a baby boomer with a '69 Mach I and a '70 Boss 302.... it's our way of reliving our youth. Sorry, wrong audience. Most of you guys here are still living your youth!!
The LS1 has alot of advantages over the traditional chevy small-block.Its all aluminum and has 6 bolt mains which means adding a blower or a turbo is not a problem like it is with a 2 bolt main sbc.They also keep making the motor bigger they went from the 5.7 to the 6.0 and then they made the 427 and I've read in GM HighTech that they're going to go even bigger and within the next few years the LS9 will come out and supposedly its going to be the LS7(427 c.i.d.) with a blower.
i heard the ls9 is going to be a 6.3L supercharged engine. Anyways the ls1 is a good engine but with anything it can be improved and since it's newer it's not as cheap to do.
The one thing I am worried about when I build my 355 for 400hp is those LS1's I keep reading how they are so fast and running high 13's out of the factory. But what I am wondering is where does that leave them as far as reasonable average budget upgrades? Can you build up on an LS1 like you can to make more power on a SBC?
Ohh heck yeah!
Good example:
Bone stock LS1 ram air ta 13.1 with good driver and even high 12's
Just an exhaust and Air cleaner lid high 12s
add gears and slicks mid lower 12s
Have 2 friends with cams running deep into 11's
Just finished friends AFR heads and 236/240 cam expect that car to run
high 10s after converter and some weight reduction..
18* Heads are far superior to ours, their stock heads flow what my competition ported AFRs do
uhhh willie.... the LS1 and the terminator motors are different beasts. Your numbers dont suprise me when your motor is blown and adding an intake/catback makes ur motor breathe THAT much better. your also comparing a motor that has forged internals and can handle more boost from the factory etc..cobra motors are impressive seeing that ported stock blower, and the "works" can get u 500 to the rear. i dont know too much about modular motors, but i dont think a N/A 4.6 with bolt ons and cams will make 400 to the wheels. plz correct me if im wrong. just dont compare apples to oranges.
I mean, one would have to be a freaking maniac to think that that isn't sufficient power for the street.
well throw a straight jacket on me and carry me off the mental hospital. lol, in this day and age of 800-1000whp street cars, i dont think 550 is enough. i wont stop till i'm atleast 600whp to match those pesky KB cobras
and yeah, factory boosted motors are ALWAYS built more tough than natural aspirated motors. boosted motors need the stronger stuff. so it doesnt impress me as much when comparing the two motor types together. i expect the boosted motor to make sick power reguardless of cubes. look at the 3.0 supra motors...they can handle 700-800hp on stock stuff. 4g63t motors can take 350-400whp, and thats a smaller 4 cyl. what the Lsx motors do...by the power they make and the streetability/gas mileage, i'm impressed. now its interesting to see how far we can push that. as the germans been engineering small displacement high output motors for awhile that make the lsx's and n/a ford modulars look bad
well throw a straight jacket on me and carry me off the mental hospital. lol, in this day and age of 800-1000whp street cars, i dont think 550 is enough. i wont stop till i'm atleast 600whp to match those pesky KB cobras
LOL, look at the Gen III/IV guys. There's plenty of them putting down numbers that high. You just might not notice the trend on a third-gen board...
LOL, look at the Gen III/IV guys. There's plenty of them putting down numbers that high. You just might not notice the trend on a third-gen board...
that seems to be the average LSx now...cam/full exhaust and a 150 shot...hello 500-550whp. some guys doing 200shots and doin 600whp. thats on stock heads! its sick and those motors are lasting ALONG time.
Hey thanks. Your car would kill mine though, what all do you have? Right now I have to use it as a DD for the time being so I'm trying to save the stall for a while, but that would be nice to hit a 12 one of these days! I bet you run into the eleven's...
havent taken it to the track yet! i have pacesetter long tubes, tsp catted y pipe(3"), hooker cat back, march underdrive pulley, a short stick, tubular panhard/lower control arms/ Sub frames, nitto DRs, 918 springs, tsp hardeneed pushrods, 232/234 .595"/.598" 112 cam, and mine came with the ls6 intake. i DD mine. until the rough winters comes here in seattle
__________________
2001 Camaro SS, Hurst M6,H/C/I old #s: 395rwhp/366ftlbs
one thing i must say is that a 400hp TPI motor (given traction) will beat a 400hp gen III. remember on the track, torque means just as much as hp.
the average 400hp TPI will make 450-500ftlbs of torque! while a gen III will NORMALY make only 350-400ftlbs. and on the track that means lower ETs for the tpi . but i must say if i had the chance i would take a lsx over a sbc any day. i just like the TPI because its always the under-dog.
, if your building a 400 hp car race cars around your power range.
, especially for the M6 cars. Mine has held up to 1.6x 60s so far, but on 555Rs.
Which isn't a bad thing... 
