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Lets settle this. Which car is faster? Post articles to prove your point. Lets keep this a friendly debate please. I think an LS1 car would win from a dig and roll. Your turn.
1998-2002 M6 Camaro SS or Trans Am WS6
310-325rwh Roughly 350 Flywheel
1/4 12.8-13.1
89 TTA
250wrh 300 Flywheel
1/4 13.4-13.7 Best I could find.
Lets settle this. Which car is faster? Post articles to prove your point. Lets keep this a friendly debate please. I think an LS1 car would win from a dig and roll. Your turn.
1998-2002 M6 Camaro SS or Trans Am WS6
310-325rwh Roughly 350 Flywheel
1/4 12.7-13.1
89 TTA
250wrh 300 Flywheel
1/4 13.4-13.7 Best I could find.
when did anyone get a stock (and i mean 100% bone stock) LS1 fbody to eclipse the 12.89 run done by evan smith in a 99' Z? i see you have a 12.7 listed in your estimation
edit: ahhh, i see. the mag did mention evans run, and mused that their 01' test car MIGHT have gone 12.7s in better air. but it didnt, and this test is only about what DID happen, not what COULDVE. keep it factual please
regardless, i doubt any TTA ever hit 12s 100% bone stock. might want to check www.turbobuick.com for more info on the TTAs
Last edited by tpivette89; 05-02-2009 at 04:14 PM.
There was supposedly a "stock" TTA that ran 12.9 back in '90. But they are so easy to make fast, its anybody's guess how stock it really was. Mine ran 13.0 with just a t-stat and Thrasher92 chip. Had all of $30 in mods
The only time I had mine dynoed, it made 318/455 to the wheels. That was with the Thrasher92 chip, t-stat, 8" K&N, adjustable wastegate, cat pipe, and Nittos. Ran 12.1 that weekend also.
The TTA is decieving because it makes big block torque with low hp numbers.
As far as the question, it's a toss up from a dig or roll. The TTA is consistent, run after run, as any car I've ever owned.
i would think to keep things fair and equal, apples to apples if you will, it should be an auto LS1 tested against a TTA. after all, the TTAs couldnt be had with a manual trans
on stock cars, a well driven manual trans is always going to be quicker than its automatic counterpart... thats an advantage the TTA doesnt have
i would think to keep things fair and equal, apples to apples if you will, it should be an auto LS1 tested against a TTA. after all, the TTAs couldnt be had with a manual trans
on stock cars, a well driven manual trans is always going to be quicker than its automatic counterpart... thats an advantage the TTA doesnt have
whats the best bone stock auto LS1 fbody time?
I think a m6 would be fair since it would mean both top performers would match up. The TTA does have a power adder, which is an advantage the ws6 does not have. Best auto ws6 I have seen ran 13.1 at 106.
Last edited by 89IrocZ350TPI; 05-02-2009 at 08:01 PM.
Well, if your talking right off of the showroom floor, untouched, than the LS1 will win. But if you allow both cars to run drag radials, any stall, trans brake, and allow for the LC2 to up it's boost, the LC2 will annihilate the LS1. My buddy Scott (Murpshter on TurboBuicks.com), just went in the high 11's with a stock LC2 @ 22-psi in his Grand National, in fact, there are a lot of guys running even better than that w/their stock turbo buicks on those boards. But again though, if your talking right off the showroom floor, gotta go with the LS1....
Well, if your talking right off of the showroom floor, untouched, than the LS1 will win. But if you allow both cars to run drag radials, any stall, trans brake, and allow for the LC2 to up it's boost, the LC2 will annihilate the LS1. My buddy Scott (Murpshter on TurboBuicks.com), just went in the high 11's with a stock LC2 @ 22-psi in his Grand National, in fact, there are a lot of guys running even better than that w/their stock turbo buicks on those boards. But again though, if your talking right off the showroom floor, gotta go with the LS1....
Even better, I have the video. I also have a video of another's Grand National running 10.98 w/just a T49 turbo (one step up from the stock turbo). I didn't download Scott's turbo buick on streetfire yet, I still need to rip them from the disc, but I do have some video's of TTA-850's ride hauling *** down over at e-town since we're talking Trans Am's....
.... here's my buddy Paul's Grand National running with a stock engine, all factory cast. His runs are first and last, has over 400 PASSES with just cast parts;
Why bring up Grand Nationals? The TTA got different parts (like the heads), so the Grand National (nor GNX) is even a valid stand in for a TTA.
BTW, the TTA may have been RATED by GM at 250hp (the official GM degree was "Nothing we make, makes more horsepower than the Corvette"), but independent dyno tests, right off the showroom floor, showed they commonly put out 301hp at the rear wheels.
Well, if your talking right off of the showroom floor, untouched, than the LS1 will win. But if you allow both cars to run drag radials, any stall, trans brake, and allow for the LC2 to up it's boost, the LC2 will annihilate the LS1. My buddy Scott (Murpshter on TurboBuicks.com), just went in the high 11's with a stock LC2 @ 22-psi in his Grand National, in fact, there are a lot of guys running even better than that w/their stock turbo buicks on those boards. But again though, if your talking right off the showroom floor, gotta go with the LS1....
I can believe a hi 11 on a stock LC2. Mine went 12.1 with 18psi. That was stock everything, even the converter. Still managed a 1.69 on Nittos. The injectors were at 110% DC also. After that is when I put on the mods. A converter really helps the launch. I was literally coming out of the seat trying to hold the stock converter.
Why bring up Grand Nationals? The TTA got different parts (like the heads), so the Grand National (nor GNX) is even a valid stand in for a TTA.
BTW, the TTA may have been RATED by GM at 250hp (the official GM degree was "Nothing we make, makes more horsepower than the Corvette"), but independent dyno tests, right off the showroom floor, showed they commonly put out 301hp at the rear wheels.
Well, the GN was the basis of the TTA. Granted it got the front wheel drive heads, that flowed better and the GNX intercooler. It still had less gearing than a GN: 3.42 vs 3.27
The "official" rating had nothing to do with the 'Vette as it was rated at 255HP that year(I think). It was to warranty the 200 4R. Hydromatic wouldn't warranty it if it was rated higher.
.... why not? The TTA was faster than the Grand National stock, so using the more common (and heavier) Grand National to embellish an engine that they both happened to share is more than feasible, and it's to the TTA's favor. Not too many stock TTA's at the track lately, and when I use the term 'track', I'm referring to a track in which I happened to be by that day or night so I can verify if it's modded or not. A stock Grand National averages mid 14's bone stock, and guys have taken them deep into the elevens wthout touching the engine or stock turbo. To think that it can't be done with a TTA, which embodies the same exact (albeit a better version) engine is insane. That's why I'm using the GN. Wouldn't it be okay for the opposition to use, say, a '98 Corvette to embellish the LS1's potential in this argument?
I can believe a hi 11 on a stock LC2. Mine went 12.1 with 18psi. That was stock everything, even the converter. Still managed a 1.69 on Nittos. The injectors were at 110% DC also. After that is when I put on the mods. A converter really helps the launch. I was literally coming out of the seat trying to hold the stock converter.
Fun times....
That 12.1 is awesome! Times have definitely changed though, as Eric over at Turbo Tweak is putting out some incredible tunes, in which when used in conjunction with the power-logger and scanmaster, can really dial these suckers in. Don't forget the alky injection. There is no doubt in my mind you would have been DEEP into the elevens w/your TTA, w/bone stock engine....
BTW, the TTA may have been RATED by GM at 250hp (the official GM degree was "Nothing we make, makes more horsepower than the Corvette"), but independent dyno tests, right off the showroom floor, showed they commonly put out 301hp at the rear wheels.
geez, this myth again. here we go...
in 1986, the Corvette was rated at a MAX of 235hp (aluminum headed late model year cars). when the 86' first appeared in showrooms, though, it was only rated at 230hp. Buick played some advertising games with chevy and made the 86' GN 5hp more than the Corvette, making the Buick's rating 235
then for 1987, the Corvette upped its rating to 240 due to the addition of roller rockers. again, Buick played games and rated its GN 5 more hp for a total of 245
finally, in 1989, the Corvette was rated at 245hp when the optional gear ratios were installed. This time it was Pontiac playing the games, and advertised the TTAs at 250hp... again, 5 more than the best Vette offering
so you see, the whole "nothing shall eclipse the Vettes power" myth was shattered every year the intercooled Buick mill was offered. i have to remind you guys of that everytime a thread like this is brought up. lets try and remember it this time
I think a m6 would be fair since it would mean both top performers would match up. The TTA does have a power adder, which is an advantage the ws6 does not have. Best auto ws6 I have seen ran 13.1 at 106.
the Buick has 2 less cylinders. and is running with over a decade older technology. and has a cylinder head design that dated back to the 70s, while the LS1 was designed using the latest computer simulation models. and you think the LC2 has an advantage?
you dont need to give the LS1 an advantage like a manual trans over the little 6 cylinder do you? stock vs stock. stock tires, stock boost. auto to auto (which would also put the rear gear ratios near identical as well) i believe would be the most accurate to say which ENGINE is faster
Last edited by tpivette89; 05-03-2009 at 01:31 AM.
Really? Not ONCE have I read a post by you saying that, nor once have you corrected me in posting that.....Not once in 11+ years, here on TGO.
ive posted it one this site quite a few times. it would take FOREVER to go thru all my posts and find them all though. i may never have corrected YOU personally, but i know 100% ive typed those words on here many times
the Buick has 2 less cylinders. and is running with over a decade older technology. and has a cylinder head design that dated back to the 70s, while the LS1 was designed using the latest computer simulation models. and you think the LC2 has an advantage?
you dont need to give the LS1 an advantage like a manual trans over the little 6 cylinder do you? stock vs stock. stock tires, stock boost. auto to auto i believe would be the most accurate to say which ENGINE is faster
So.....In 20 years of "advancement" over the LC2, the LS1 is basically equal to a V6 with 70s technology........
Imagine if the TTA V6 was redesigned with 21st century technology from the ground up.
Everything being equal I think the LS1 car should win but not by much at all and in some cases wont. Back in 2005 I was in GMHTP shootout of stock cars and while I had a fuel pump issue that slowed my car down to a 13.71 @ 97mph, it has gone 13.37 @ 104mph in similar conditions on the same track after replacing the failing fuel pump BTW . There were three LS1 cars there, a 2002 CE Trans Am that went 13.44 @ 106, a 1998 Trans Am WS6 that went 13.54 @ 106, and a 2001 10th Anniversary Firehawk that went 13.83 @ 103. So even with a failing fuel pump I beat one LS1 car and was very close to the other two, and should have gone quicker than them if the fuel pump had not gone away. This is in the December 2005 issue of GMHTP, my TTA is on the cover next to a GNX and the rest of the shootout cars
So with that said I think it would be very close, and I think in ideal conditions a TTA can get close to a 12.99 run bone stock, and has the power to do so, but stock tires will probrobly limit the car to very low 13's. Now give me $1000 worth of mods, including gas and tires, and I'll get you high 11's at 112-113mph. My old car (#861) went 11.99 @ 112.26 on a 1.63 60ft with a failing transmission and converter (wouldnt lock up and would slip on WOT shifts), mods were K&N Filter and steel inlet pipe, test pipe with dump, adjustable wastegate actuator set to 22psi, Thrasher 108 chip, 112 octane race gas, and M/T ET Street 26x11.5x16 tires on stock GTA wheels
__________________ 1998 Trans Am - 1 of 98 Bright Green Metallic
1989 GTA - 10 Second V6 - Featured in GMHTP 5/07
1989 TTA's #124 (cloth/t-top), 850 (leather/t-top), & 884 (cloth/hardtop)
1996 Impala SS - blk/grey
2000 E55 AMG - blk/blk
2005 ML500 Special Edition luxury tow vehicle
Great race for sure in stock form! I've never seen a 100% stock TTA at the track, but did see a stock to the factory air-filter 2001 TA run a 12.9@106 at GL Dragaway back in 2003. Throw $500 in mods at both cars and the TTA is a clear winner...
the Buick has 2 less cylinders. and is running with over a decade older technology. and has a cylinder head design that dated back to the 70s, while the LS1 was designed using the latest computer simulation models. and you think the LC2 has an advantage?
you dont need to give the LS1 an advantage like a manual trans over the little 6 cylinder do you? stock vs stock. stock tires, stock boost. auto to auto (which would also put the rear gear ratios near identical as well) i believe would be the most accurate to say which ENGINE is faster
How is a power adder not an advantage? Just sayin both cars have their advantages.
How is a power adder not an advantage? Just sayin both cars have their advantages.
the LC2 motor came with a turbo from the factory... no one added one to it, so its power adder is not an advantage. it came that way. 100% bone stock. if the boost were increased, then THAT would be an advantage, but were talking about 100% factory stock motors, and the fact of the matter is, the LC2 HAD a turbo. you couldnt order a TTA without the turbo, its power adder wasnt an option (like a manual trans WAS on a LS1 car)
to find out which engine (LC2 vs LS1) is faster itd be best to determine the outcome with everything being as equal as possible. apples to apples
Last edited by tpivette89; 05-03-2009 at 10:50 PM.
How is a power adder not an advantage? Just sayin both cars have their advantages.
Alright, let's put this into perspective. The two main things that separate the LS1 engine from the LC2 are the cylinder heads, as stock for stock the LC2 just can't compare, and the factory computer processor. However, clean up the stock 3.8 cylinder heads, and throw an XFI processor into the mix, up the boost, and it's a completely different ball game. I don't think anybody here is saying that the LSX engine is a poor design, as it's obviously anything but, but it's not necessarily better than the LC2. This is why it's tough to argue factory, because after you visually seen a set of LC2 heads, bare, you'd be like "jeez, what the hell was GM thinking" (I kid you not). They are horrid, and the factory fuel lines are very restrictive. This is why it isn't fair to say that the LS1 is a better design, because when you tear into the LC2, it immediately becomes apparent that GM held back on it's potential, and despite that, it's still on the same level as the LS1....
LS1/manual vs TTA: LS1 wins in both E/T and mph numbers
like ive been trying to point out, the ENGINES will perform the same stock vs stock at the track. the determining factor will be the LS1s ability to utilize the manual trans. So neither ENGINE is "better" or "faster" stock for stock
...after you visually seen a set of LC2 heads, bare, you'd be like "jeez, what the hell was GM thinking" (I kid you not). They are horrid...
i know what you mean. i remember the first time i tore off my 85' GNs heads (same 8445 casting) i couldnt believe ANY air flows through them, let alone enough to push those heavy cars into the 10s and quicker
same enlightenment came over me when i pulled off a Crossfire intake manifold. its like the engineer was on crack when he made the intake ports HALF the size of the head ports
there certainly was something wrong with the talent over at GM during the late 70s/early 80s. well... they DID slap a turbo and intercooler on a 3.8 during those years, so maybe a few werent so bad
the LC2 motor came with a turbo from the factory... no one added one to it, so its power adder is not an advantage. it came that way. 100% bone stock. if the boost were increased, then THAT would be an advantage, but were talking about 100% factory stock motors, and the fact of the matter is, the LC2 HAD a turbo. you couldnt order a TTA without the turbo, its power adder wasnt an option (like a manual trans WAS on a LS1 car)
to find out which engine (LC2 vs LS1) is faster itd be best to determine the outcome with everything being as equal as possible. apples to apples
Came with a turbo or not it still has a power added. If the ws6 came with a power adder we wouldnt even be discussing this. Thats why I like the LS1. Its all motor.
Came with a turbo or not it still has a power added. If the ws6 came with a power adder we wouldnt even be discussing this. Thats why I like the LS1. Its all motor.
This should not be viewed by which motor is better, but which car. The LS1 car was designed to be all motor, the TTA was designed to utilize the turbo, that's what that motor was made for. So giving the edge to the LS1 just because it was designed all motor doesn't make it a clear winner. That's just the same excuses used by many, "if my v8 had a turbo"...or "if i had 2/4 more cylinders or bigger displacment" . It doesn't matter IF you had it, what matters is that's how it came from the factory.
This should not be viewed by which motor is better, but which car. The LS1 car was designed to be all motor, the TTA was designed to utilize the turbo, that's what that motor was made for. So giving the edge to the LS1 just because it was designed all motor doesn't make it a clear winner. That's just the same excuses used by many, "if my v8 had a turbo"...or "if i had 2/4 more cylinders or bigger displacment" . It doesn't matter IF you had it, what matters is that's how it came from the factory.
An LS1 is an LS1. Only a 5 hp difference between the cars. The fastest one was actually a 1999 Z28 that ran 12.85....
Yes but that LS1 was setup to run that 12.85 ET. To go all out with a stock as a rock TTA, all you'd have to do is up the boost, because GM obviously detuned them from the factory so nobody would kill themselves on their way from the dealer. Stock for stock, w/the stock rims and tires, allow the LS1 to be dyno tuned, and allow the TTA to run upwards of 20+psi, and the TTA will eat the LS1 alive....
Yes but that LS1 was setup to run that 12.85 ET. To go all out with a stock as a rock TTA, all you'd have to do is up the boost, because GM obviously detuned them from the factory so nobody would kill themselves on their way from the dealer. Stock for stock, w/the stock rims and tires, allow the LS1 to be dyno tuned, and allow the TTA to run upwards of 20+psi, and the TTA will eat the LS1 alive....
I dont understand what you mean by setup. I believe it was the same car they used in the mustang article I provided.
I dont understand what you mean by setup. I believe it was the same car they used in the mustang article I provided.
I don't go by articles in magazines. If I'm not there, I simply won't believe it based on hearsay, and this goes for "Ranger's" infamous 10 second run with a stock Z06. I own a '98 Trans Am w/LS1, and never broke 12's with it, stock. I came awfully close with just a set of drag radials and a tune (set up), but still no cigar. Once the stall speed converter went in, as well as the SLP lid, I broke 12's no problem....
I don't go by articles in magazines. If I'm not there, I simply won't believe it based on hearsay, and this goes for "Ranger's" infamous 10 second run with a stock Z06. I own a '98 Trans Am w/LS1, and never broke 12's with it, stock. I came awfully close with just a set of drag radials and a tune (set up), but still no cigar. Once the stall speed converter went in, as well as the SLP lid, I broke 12's no problem....
I never heard of an auto ls1 getting 12's so I am not surprised. I plan on running my M6 w/cat back and K&N's some day but right now with 22,000 miles I dont want to race it just yet. I want a high 12 as is, then full bolt ons would be fun.
I never heard of an auto ls1 getting 12's so I am not surprised. I plan on running my M6 w/cat back and K&N's some day but right now with 22,000 miles I dont want to race it just yet. I want a high 12 as is, then full bolt ons would be fun....
You'll get there. Sticks are very fun, but I would never take one over a stalled automatic w/transbrake under boost. I was just like you once upon a time, didn't buy into all of that turbo V6 crap, until I got freaking smoked by one at the track. Got so hooked on them that I gave the LS1 to my wife, here was the last day it was officially mine, just before leaving for the track (now she won't let me even breath on it, let alone drive it lol)....;
You'll get there. Sticks are very fun, but I would never take one over a stalled automatic w/transbrake under boost. I was just like you once upon a time, didn't buy into all of that turbo V6 crap, until I got freaking smoked by one at the track. Got so hooked on them that I gave the LS1 to my wife, here was the last day it was officially mine, just before leaving for the track (now she won't let me even breath on it, let alone drive it lol)....;
Yeah. Right now I am more into looks. I just love the ram air hoods, and the body style of the cars. What about a supercharged LS1? That would be bad ***. Maybe I will go that route some day.
When you get into boost, it is an entirely different story. Throw a turbo on an LSX, and you better hold onto your hat. Here is an 8 second Trans Am, running on a 17" drag radial, that drove to and fro the track. Now this is unreal, and I don't see any turbo buick (including the TTA) coming close....;
When you get into boost, it is an entirely different story. Throw a turbo on an LSX, and you better hold onto your hat. Here is an 8 second Trans Am, running on a 17" drag radial, that drove to and fro the track. Now this is unreal, and I don't see any turbo buick (including the TTA) coming close....;
You'll get there. Sticks are very fun, but I would never take one over a stalled automatic w/transbrake under boost. I was just like you once upon a time, didn't buy into all of that turbo V6 crap, until I got freaking smoked by one at the track. Got so hooked on them that I gave the LS1 to my wife, here was the last day it was officially mine, just before leaving for the track (now she won't let me even breath on it, let alone drive it lol)....;
I drove a bone stock 98 WS6 to a 13.3 missing 4th gear. Buddy of mine had a '01 WS6, gave him my drag radials off my WS6, and he ran a 12.9. Completely bone stock save for the tires.
After I sold the WS6 and had just the TTA, I got lots of weird looks from people at the track. Even guys from EFA kind of snickered at it. Then they saw it run and some really got behind the little V6 TA. It's amazing how many people have no clue what a TTA is.
Lots of fun that car was. Low 11's at over 121mph...leave the track with the A/C on and still get 28mpg You just can't beat that.
Why does everyone think EVERY f'in LS1 runs 12's? They DON'T...FAR from it. A "few" have managed to pull it off but is NO means the norm.
More typical LS1 ego BULLSHIT. Sorry but a '99 Z28 isn't going to consistently run a 12.8x...isn't happening....they're all mid-low 13 second cars with some factory freaks/ridiculous drivers.
...and for the record I've owned 2 LS1 cars...neither were 12 second cars in stock form.
__________________ ***89 GTA*** L98, P1-SC procharger, 24# SVO's, wideband O2, Edelbrock TES headers and catback, SFC's, Wonderbar and some other goodies...
Why does everyone think EVERY f'in LS1 runs 12's? They DON'T...FAR from it. A "few" have managed to pull it off but is NO means the norm.
More typical LS1 ego BULLSHIT. Sorry but a '99 Z28 isn't going to consistently run a 12.8x...isn't happening....they're all mid-low 13 second cars with some factory freaks/ridiculous drivers.
...and for the record I've owned 2 LS1 cars...neither were 12 second cars in stock form.
That is what everyone has been saying is it not? We all know the average ls1 runs mid 13's but this thread is about trying to find the very best runs.
I see this thread going overboard already but here is my opinion and this was supposed to be comparing "apples to apples" not the best of the best run that had the best drivers etc.
To make this a 100% fair poll you have to take a ls1 car thats fully optioned..full tank and auto up against a fully optioned full tank of gas 89tta stock for stock.This way no one argues about what trim the cars are in for weight advantages etc.This race would be extremely close from a dig and possibly from a roll.Should be a drivers race.
And to all the guy that praise the ls1 so highly I ask this question.Why are we having this poll if the TTA wasnt still a potent engine in stock form or modded.It might be older technology but it still works great to this day.My vote is drivers race...neither is better than the other just prefference in type of car you like.Both are fast either way..both can be made faster for cheap and parts are readily available.Pick your poision and rip up other cars and show gm pride.
When you get into boost, it is an entirely different story. Throw a turbo on an LSX, and you better hold onto your hat. Here is an 8 second Trans Am, running on a 17" drag radial, that drove to and fro the track. Now this is unreal, and I don't see any turbo buick (including the TTA) coming close....;
88 Firebird Formula 350- 85,XXX miles *G92* *Ws6*
. It doesn't matter IF you had it, what matters is that's how it came from the factory. 
You just can't beat that. 
