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Just want an idea of what to expect. The LS1 is a close friend of mine and we just like to mess around sometimes at the track. I just got done putting a new 350 in my car and wanted an idea of what my times might be (I haven't been to the track yet).
98 LS1 Z28 specs:
Automatic
104,000 miles
Street tires w/ big traction issues
Home-ported TB
Hacked air box
Headers with borla catback
Mild tune, also homemade Times: 1/8: Best of 8.8 @ 83mph 1/4: Best of 13.3 @ 106mph
Flywheel power ratings: 380hp @ 5500rpm, 425tq @ 4000rpm
Figured I'd give you the complete rundown on my car. I'm not looking for suggestions on what to change about my car, or if you disagree with my choice of cam. All I'd like is an estimate of what an 1/8th and 1/4 mile race would result in between the two of us.
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Last edited by plasmeh; 07-16-2009 at 12:00 PM.
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Your car has a great foundation. Both the bottom end of the motor and the driveline is super solid. However, you will get beat. Your heads, cam and induction are limiting you.
yup, your car probably isnt making much power with those heads and cam. ill go with the LS1 car on this one. unless you put some drag radials on your car then you might have a race.
If you are making 380hp at the fly and your car is right You will win, IF you don't get too greedy out the hole or mess up the shifts, Trust me. When she spins at the line and you don't she's going to get nervous and over power the tires even more while you row down the gears. Bolt on ls1s are good but it's the driver that most of the time wins or lose a race when street tires are a factor. I've seen cars with 100+ more hp get beat because of the driver. It's a different story when you are racing someone vs a clock!
Just don't spin out the hole!
1. automatic, this would be a close race if hte launches were equal, and a 3.73 stick car needs some help in the tire department.
2. theoretically your car makes 380 hp at the flywheel, so if you roughly calculate 20% drivetrain loss your right at 300 wheel. Most Stock ls1 cars dyno anywhere from 280-310 (some a few more as mine dynoed 330) at the wheels.
3. someone mentioned flow as far as the heads go, and ls1 cars come alive on the big end. I really think its gonna come down to the launch and if you dont outlaunch it, i dont forsee you catching it before the big end.
Why does the LS1 have traction issues? Anyone that can drive, at least a little, will have no trouble launching an LS1. Unless the tires are bald, or the 10 bolt breaks! Also, hacked airbox? Why didn't they get a lid? Sounds ghetto. 13.3 with those mods isn't good. I have seen stock LS1's do better. Driver is questionable.
Why does the LS1 have traction issues? Anyone that can drive, at least a little, will have no trouble launching an LS1. Unless the tires are bald, or the 10 bolt breaks! Also, hacked airbox? Why didn't they get a lid? Sounds ghetto. 13.3 with those mods isn't good. I have seen stock LS1's do better. Driver is questionable.
13.3@106 is pretty much right down a ls1 on street tires alley.... yeah you see some freaks get into the 12's, but they are just that.... factory freaks
Why does the LS1 have traction issues? Anyone that can drive, at least a little, will have no trouble launching an LS1. Unless the tires are bald, or the 10 bolt breaks! Also, hacked airbox? Why didn't they get a lid? Sounds ghetto. 13.3 with those mods isn't good. I have seen stock LS1's do better. Driver is questionable.
Dont bald tires get better traction? More rubber on the track? Kinda like slicks?
1/8 mile track u will win. 1/4 mile track it will be pretty close. anything after the 1/4 mile u'll lose
I hear this all the time and it absolutely makes no sense. Yes the LS1 pulls great on the top end but it'll get to the 1/8 pretty quick also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by randy87iroc
13.3@106 is pretty much right down a ls1 on street tires alley.... yeah you see some freaks get into the 12's, but they are just that.... factory freaks
Actually, that is pretty slow for those mods.
I was running that when the goat was bone stock and everybody knows how slow those are....
I have almost the same motor combo, a few differences, my cam is stock, cast iron angle plug head, thats been ported, 1.5 roller rockers, Edlebrock Performer RPM intake, a Performer RPM 600 vac sec.(the way I aquired the motor) I dont have true duals, but the hooker shorty's into O.R.Y, and 3" from there back, 3.42 posi, a built 700r4, and S&W subframe connectors.
A chassis dyno will tell you alot, I put down 211rwhp/262 rwtrq,
I'll tell you the car runs out of steam running the 1/4, ran a 14.9, but the 1/8th isnt too bad, my best using Nitto DR's has been 9.10
Once I finish the body and get it painted I'm gonna try this cam to see the results Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 262/272, Lift .420/.442, lobe seperation of 112, duration at 050 lift 204int/214exh.
My 1/4 time was against a stock GTO LS1, I tree'd the guy, had him beat at the 1000ft mark by 1/2 car, but then he drove around me from that point.
13.3@106 is pretty much right down a ls1 on street tires alley.... yeah you see some freaks get into the 12's, but they are just that.... factory freaks
This car isn't factory. Headers and exhaust with an intake should be doing better than a factory car.
That LS1 might or might not run that 13.3 when he race it, that's my point. When you line up against another car you don't always make your best pass things tend to happen. As far as the cam goes it is small and makes for a torque motor but he has six gears to help him stay in the right rpm band. IF he can drive it and the car is right he should win. Had two cars that came to my shop that I built for the owners who were frnds, one full ported heads/cam and full bolt on ls1 the other heads/small cam full bolt on 355 sbc. Both on tires when they raced the eighth, sbc won by fender. LS1 dynoed 90hp more than sbc but still lost. At the track et wins races not mph or more hp.
id have to see a dyno sheet to believe that head and tiny cam combo make that good of power...LS1....
__________________ 355,stealth ram,dart platinum heads 200cc, gm hot cam..lunati pro mod 5.7 rods, je pistons,total seal gapless 2nd rings..sh*&^y 700r4 tranny...getting things together for t56 swap and 9" really lookin into a single turbo...
That LS1 might or might not run that 13.3 when he race it, that's my point. When you line up against another car you don't always make your best pass things tend to happen. As far as the cam goes it is small and makes for a torque motor but he has six gears to help him stay in the right rpm band. IF he can drive it and the car is right he should win. Had two cars that came to my shop that I built for the owners who were frnds, one full ported heads/cam and full bolt on ls1 the other heads/small cam full bolt on 355 sbc. Both on tires when they raced the eighth, sbc won by fender. LS1 dynoed 90hp more than sbc but still lost. At the track et wins races not mph or more hp.
If they ran a 1/4 the LS1 probably would've easily pulled away.
__________________ ***89 GTA*** L98, P1-SC procharger, 24# SVO's, wideband O2, Edelbrock TES headers and catback, SFC's, Wonderbar and some other goodies...
id have to see a dyno sheet to believe that head and tiny cam combo make that good of power...LS1....
Well here's that combo.
Roller cam .030 over 350/10:1 cr.
FULLY ported (high swirl) Sportsman II heads with 2.02/1.6 and beehive springs.
Comp Cams Hyd rller 212*/218* .487/.495 @110 retarded 6*for more rpms.
1.6 roller rockers.
2 barrel tb single plane muiltiport convertion intake manifold,ported.
holley 52mm tbi, fully ported no injectors.
32lb per hr injectors running 45psi with 89% max duty cycle.
EBL tuned by me.
255lph fuel pump with -8 lines all the way.
Underdrive pully.
1 3/4 long tubes headers.
dual 3" into 1 single 4" over the axle back into dual 2.5" with two 2.5" magnaflow round mufflers built by me.
built 700r4 trans with 3000 stall tc.
10 bolt with disc brakes, moser 28 spline axles, welded tubes, trutrack diff, 3.42 gears and girdle.
3" driveshaft, bmr torque arm. lca brackets, lca, drag bags, V6 springs all the way, drag struts/shocks, 275/45-17 tires and some other stuff.
Race weight 3550lbs.
Car has ac, heat, full int, AND smog pump that still works. Pulls 14 inches of vacum. Dynoed 350hp @ 6150rpm and 351lbs @ 4650 rpm and runs the quarter with 255/50-16 bfg dr mid to low 12s at 107-110 mph on 1.7 60 ft. Car is on youtube killing a mustang gt that he gave some cars on street tires and has mad low to mid range torque that makes it jet off the line at 3/4 thottle.
If they ran a 1/4 the LS1 probably would've easily pulled away.
Might, might not. LS1 is a 2000 Z28 drop top fully loaded and heavy as hell, dynoed 440hp/400trq. I built both cars, tuned both cars, and driven both cars with DRs. LS1 makes more hp yes and has 3.73 gears but the car is heavy and can't hook like the 3rd gen. On the track and both with DRs the 3rd gen will put 2-3 cars on the LS1 before it starts to come back. In the 1/8 with DRs the 3rd gen kills it, in the quarter the LS1 should win on paper IF he doesn't get too far behind at the start. Drivers race with street tires.
We raced one pass at the local 1/8th mile last night, wasn't a good race for either of us. The track was slick, I managed to get more traction, but still have a lot left in the car, probably 8.9 or so E/T.
LS1 (she messed up BIG time, nerves/bad track prep):
-Reaction: .9259 (.500 is perfect)
-60 ft.: 2.6041
-330ft: 8.1092
-1/8 ET: 12.4861
-1/8 MPH: 58.89
I later found out she ended up almost going sideways from putting her foot down too hard at the line. She took it easy the rest of the run.
IROC (shift to second resulted in a slide/tires broke free, let off)
-Reaction: .6679
-60 ft.: 2.1409
-330ft: 6.2846
-1/8 ET: 9.5559
-1/8 MPH: 76.91
I'm not one for excuses but this race was just plain bad. Combination of poor driving on both our parts and a slick track made for a bad pass. I'll post new results when we get in a more respectable run. I'm predicting a pretty damn close race with her inching me out at the end.
Well a race is a race, good win. Like i said before, different story when you line up next to someone, rookies tend to get the shakey legs .LOL.... Told you if she can't drive and you can you'll win. For the next race get some 15" drag radials and let her have it!!!!!!
LOL, rookie driver. Before the next run he should get more seat time with some DRs and hope she doesn't, cause if she does then...... game over for the 3rd gen.
LOL, rookie driver. Before the next run he should get more seat time with some DRs and hope she doesn't, cause if she does then...... game over for the 3rd gen.
9.1-9.2 for the iroc, 8.40-8.50's for the LS1 car.
If I were you I wouldn't race her again until you get some drag radials. Traction is number one in drag racing. That 9.01 in the eight would be a low 14 in the quarter and if she match you on the 60ft she will pull on you after the 330ft mark. If she learns how to drive that ls1 and you pull a 2.1+ 60 ft you are done. Drag Radials to get that 60 down. Don't make me say I told you so.
I have every intention of proving you wrong She made up absolutely no ground on me the 2 runs I raced her, and again on a pull to 100 on the highway. Don't worry, il have videos of the quarter to back up my claims.
Well if she still can't drive then you got her again. I'm one your side, remember I was the one who said you would when the first race. lol Do you know if she's been out getting some seat time or added some parts?
She goes almost every Friday to the track but just doesn't get it off the line that well. Only parts that are on the car are headers, borla, and a tune basically. She will be adding an LS6 intake soon, we'll see how that does.
I know you are on my side, I just want to show the LS1 fanboys that the good ol' small block can keep up just fine.
Oh yeah, not only can the sbc keep up but we often put boot to ***. I've built both 3rd gens and 4th gens and I'm not impressed with what you can do with them cause it cost too much if you ask me. I know guys that are making 450+whp on motor but are running high to mid 12s. The sbc is a good and easy motor to work on and mod. I have yet to loose to a mudstain or LSanything and if I don't think I can take one then I'll just flip that switch and turn her loose!
I like the car but you need some tires.Also,im no drag race/car expert but I`ve run an 8.7 at 80 or 81 in the 1/8th,1.96 60`(have to dig up the slips on the et).With my engine but that was with a stock stall,trans,2.73,Flowtech headers/Y-pipe and street tires.I`m not makeing 380 fwhp or 300 whp.I just dont see it even with your spinning and 2.2 60`.I figure I might be making 300 fwhp but I doubt it.Prolly more like 275 If I`m lucky.
__________________
5.7,Stock TPI,LT4 production cam w/1.6 R.R.
ZZ4 heads,Hooker 2460 headers w/full 3" exhaust
2500 stall,3.42 gear,suspension mods.Full list of mods in VB garage.
Oh yeah, not only can the sbc keep up but we often put boot to ***. I've built both 3rd gens and 4th gens and I'm not impressed with what you can do with them cause it cost too much if you ask me. I know guys that are making 450+whp on motor but are running high to mid 12s. The sbc is a good and easy motor to work on and mod. I have yet to loose to a mudstain or LSanything and if I don't think I can take one then I'll just flip that switch and turn her loose!
Time for the LSx fanboy to speak up. From my experiance, I spent over $3k on my old 355. Trick flow aluminum heads, big comp roller cam, air gap manifold and holley 750 carb as well as headers, full exhaust, etc. That was a good combo and good for about 425 flywheel hp.
Now I hate carbs and I just bought a 5.3 out of a 2005 tahoe. I don't know about you, but for 900$ with just 35k on it, 26 mpg on the highway, and 340 flywheel horse STOCK, it seems like a win win win in every category to me. Add a T56 and a cam for the engine and I now have an entire bulletproof drivetrain making 400 ish flywheel hp all for less than it cost me to build just my 355. Oh and it still gets 25 mpg on the highway with 4.10 rear gears!
The old SBC engines are great but they are no match for new technology.
__________________ 1986 Trans Am, 2005 5.3 LM7 engine, LS6 intake manifold, cam, LS6 clutch assembly, T56 transmission w/ Hurst pro billet shifter, 95 TA 4.10 posi rear with heavy duty cover.
-Coming soon....dyno sheets!
That's cause you didn't know what you were doing with that sbc. Now back to topic please.
No.....thats because old technology is far insuperior to new flash tuning, sequential fuel injection, and head designs. I had built 4 SBC engines before that one and all ran fine with aftermarket cams and other parts, so maybe I got a bad motor or a bad part or who knows. I wish I still had it so I could have given it to you and watched you scratch your head over it. I had it at 2 performace shops and they couldn't figure out why it wouldn't run either, and they dug pretty deep into it!
I do know that the clearances are much worse on older engines, and the fact that LSx engines use re-useable o-ring gaskets is awesome. Simple fact is, you could never duplicate what the new engines have in an older SBC for ANYWHERE near the price of an LSx.
And as far as the topic, a bolt on LS1 car I would think would outperform your 360 in the quarter mile, especially with the pretty small cam your using. You need some top end to get the motors full potential against an LS1 and with a cam that size, theres room for improvement.
__________________ 1986 Trans Am, 2005 5.3 LM7 engine, LS6 intake manifold, cam, LS6 clutch assembly, T56 transmission w/ Hurst pro billet shifter, 95 TA 4.10 posi rear with heavy duty cover.
-Coming soon....dyno sheets!
I know guys that are making 450+whp on motor but are running high to mid 12s. The sbc is a good and easy motor to work on and mod. I have yet to loose to a mudstain or LSanything and if I don't think I can take one then I'll just flip that switch and turn her loose!
These guys you speak of cannot drive to save thier lives then. I know guys making 75 RWHP less in LS1's running high 11's. Not trying to knock you but If you have never lost to anything with an LSx, are you racing trucks? Anything that runs high 12's with a few bolt on's is a hard competitor.
What do you have for an engine?
__________________ 1986 Trans Am, 2005 5.3 LM7 engine, LS6 intake manifold, cam, LS6 clutch assembly, T56 transmission w/ Hurst pro billet shifter, 95 TA 4.10 posi rear with heavy duty cover.
-Coming soon....dyno sheets!
Thats what I`m saying.I know I`m not making 300hp.That guys 1/8th times slower than mine and hes claiming 380 hp.I dont think so.My typical times were low 9`s.Some as high as low tens due to poor launch.I`m staring at one time slip i could find now that says
60` 1.968
78.24 mph
et 8.887
Dont see why my car is hard to believe as a high 13 second car with a race weight of 3500-3550 depending on how much fuel and couple other things.With an online calculater it was giving 270ish hp for those times with a calculated approx. 13.7 1/4.
These particular runs in the 8`s were good track prep I guess car hooked,no spin and went.Trying to upload a pic of this slip up from my blackberry.Moving due to divorce cant find all my stuff.
If some third gen 350 tpi`s touched high 13`s I dont see why better flowing heads,cam,1.6 rr,exhaust,less weight,and a tune couldnt do the same.I`ve seen bone stock 350 tpi hit 12`s on 125 shot.I dont think my car needs spray to hit high 13`s.
Last edited by Shadygrady; 08-18-2009 at 04:17 PM.
These guys you speak of cannot drive to save thier lives then. I know guys making 75 RWHP less in LS1's running high 11's. Not trying to knock you but If you have never lost to anything with an LSx, are you racing trucks? Anything that runs high 12's with a few bolt on's is a hard competitor.
What do you have for an engine?
Wellllll. I didn't want to get into this but.... While the LS motors are great engines they can cost $$$$ to build once you try going past a certain performance level. (I've built them too) And you r right, you can make any car run good with less hp if you set the car up better for drag racing. But most people that have these cars don't do that. They think because they have the LS1 or LS2 with bolt ons or heads/cam deal they should be ok, Not true. You could do a 500hp+ sbc that will look and drive like a dream if you match the parts right. I've done it. Hell even the software to tune with is cheap compared to the LS stuff. (I do that too) I've built sbc, bbc, olds, ford and pontiac motors over the years and any motor can be built to run with the right combo of parts. I had a 350 olds rocket in a 79' regal that was killing bolt on stangs, vettes and GNs back in the early 90s.
There are many little things that people forget about when it comes to the complete package. Some have the know how but not the resources and vice versa. Me and my guys race for money so we are very anal when it comes to detail. I've seen sooo many guys beat themselves buy foregetting the little things, (it's happened to me also) that's why I'm so greedy. That 350hp Camaro did beat a heads/cam full bolt on LS1 Z28 conver. And doing it with a 52mm tbi edelbrock mpi conversion with heat, ac, smog pump, full interior and 1-5/8 shorty headers at the time. On the dyno he was at 300whp by 4600 rpm. Both guys are customers of mine and frnds. The LS1 laid down 440whp on a mustang dyno. It was close but the 92' Camaro had a better 60' was lighter and had the more balanced package which made up for the hp dif. They both had Cams, fully ported heads, shocks, struts, dual exhaust, v6 springs, sbfc, lca+brkts, etc. He also killed a modded ws6 and a 07' vette on the e-way so anybody can be beat. LS guys tend not to hack thr cars up to make them go fast (many want to brag about dyno numbers, trap mph and rims). And they get big headed cause they beat a mustang or charger.lol
I haven't lost to a LS because I race for money and we set our races up right, if it's a race car then we do what we have to do to win. Oh and I've raced LS trucks too, with my 98' Tahoe that has some things done to it. lol
^ Too much to quote! Anyways, Sorry to be a little harsh but I can't stand when people tell me I don't know what I'm doing, as I have been working on engines and cars since I was 15. I love third gens, obviously, and thats why I own one. I also owned a 2000 firehawk, and absolutely loved the drivetrain in it. I figured why not combine the two since I like the style of a third gen and the drivetrain of a 4th gen. I'll be honest with ya. I HATE tuning. Always have, and always will. I can drive the hell out of a car and can shift with the best of them but tuning is my weak point. Thats why I chose a flash tunable set up which is the "craze" these days, and it's very easy to come by a shop that does it. Chip burning on the other hand is basically limited to people that buy the stuff and teach themselves, and I didn't want that.
Everyone has a preference and everyone can make a car fast as you said. I wasn't expecting everyone to agree with me anyways....it was just my preference and 2 cents. I also find it hard to believe that that 300 whp camaro took an 07 vette on the highway??? Racing from a roll is basically the car with more HP wins, as opposed to drag racing where technique and 60ft play a big role. I guess anything is possible though if the driver is not very good.
Anyways, were all car guys here, and I have respect for any decent third or 4th gen.
__________________ 1986 Trans Am, 2005 5.3 LM7 engine, LS6 intake manifold, cam, LS6 clutch assembly, T56 transmission w/ Hurst pro billet shifter, 95 TA 4.10 posi rear with heavy duty cover.
-Coming soon....dyno sheets!
It was at 300whp by 4600 rpms and the peak hp was 352 back then. That car was also setup with cold air induction from the cowl hood. I was driving the car that day from the dyno with the owner doing some data loggin (I love tunning cars). We started at about 65mph the vette pulled a car and before we shut down at about 140mph we had 3-4 cars on the vette. The owner was shocked after that but I told him " If he makes a move I'm going to get him so hold on". Those vettes headlights look mean from the rear mirror. lol That car is faster now and should run 11s next time at the track.
Went back to the track last night after doing some rear suspension work. My old springs were completely shot, so I replaced them with moog's and some stiffer bilstein's. Also added LCARB's. Brought my time/trap down to 8.89 @ 82.70mph, 2.09 60' and really worn out street tires. The 98 LS1 ran a new best of 8.74 @ 84mph (don't know 60') on Mickey Thompson Street E/T's. We're heading to a 1/4 mile on Sunday and will hopefully get a run in with eachother, weather permitting.
You better go get/borrow some Drag radials. With your trap mph it seems like you have the power to get into the 12s but traction is your problem. If she leaves with you or less than two cars behind you she might run you down buy the end of the quarter. With a good 60' she has the power to run high to mid 12s. Get some tires
I can't throw drags on this rear, I'm sure it will break (already ripped apart a pinion at the track). I'll have to wait until I get something stronger in there, in the meantime, I'll just try to hang with her.
I hear ya. Well you need to add more power or loose some weight. A good 10-15 more hp is all you need. Have you tried a carb spacer or underdrive pulley. What about some type of CAI to get more top end hp.
355,stealth ram,dart platinum heads 200cc, gm hot cam..lunati pro mod 5.7 rods, je pistons,total seal gapless 2nd rings..sh*&^y 700r4 tranny...getting things together for t56 swap and 9" really lookin into a single turbo... 
1986 Trans Am, 2005 5.3 LM7 engine, LS6 intake manifold, cam, LS6 clutch assembly, T56 transmission w/ Hurst pro billet shifter, 95 TA 4.10 posi rear with heavy duty cover. 
I had it at 2 performace shops and they couldn't figure out why it wouldn't run either, and they dug pretty deep into it! 
lol That car is faster now and should run 11s next time at the track. 
