cIaRmOaCrZo

i have an 86' 305tpi iroc, and my buddy had a 90' 5.0 lx and my car would walk circles around it. and they were both stock. he had a 5spd and mine was auto. but we ran them in a straight line and i pulled 2 or 3 total leangths on him up to about 110mph when i let off. And his wasnt the only one either, id be crusing down the road and have random fox bodies wanting to run em, and ill just nail it kickin down a gear and just pull on them. idk whats wrong with the majority of these peoples 3rd gens, but mine hasnt lost to a fox body.... y are theres??

89IrocZ350TPI

Bad drivers, or just poorly running cars would be my guess. A 5.0 shouldnt have any trouble with a stock 305. Espacially a peanut camed 305.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

I'm definitely not going to say you're lying but there's no reason that the LX should lose other than a bad driver. A win is a win for you but tell your buddy to get some driving skill lol.

danziger

Not trying to be a d*ck, but the Mustangs you raced:

a) Were V6 cars
b) Had terrible drivers
c) Were not racing you
d) Were broken

I've owned multiple examples of 5.0/5.7 3rdGens and 5.0 Foxes and am being impartial.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Im rolling in my buddies 5.0 right now. I have had it for about a month, and just the other night, he was driving and we pulled away from an 87-92 Iroc.

Fionnla

Hey Guys, I read a lot of talk and have commented about the 305 Camaro verus 302 Mustang on this form. I can remember the 1980's since I'm an senior citizen and retired. I worked at Caterpillar here in the Aurora-Fox Valley area of Illinois I can remember the Camaro 305 H.O. (L69) being the talk of the town from 1983-1985. It came with a modest 190 HP, 5 speed with 3.73 gears. A couple of machanics knew how to tune the stock engine and it would kick the stock Mustang Gt 302's butt. I had a couple of buddies that had them and I can say they ran pretty darn good for a stock car of the day.
As for as the 305 TPI (LB9), the 1989-1992 (was known as the H.O. verson to us), had 230 HP with 3.45 gears, and with a little trick tuning, would out run some of the stock 350 (L98) because of the gears, (2.73). They would also out run the stock Mustangs.
So, it's what setup you got off the show room floor. If you compare that time to now it's a different world. I know personal about the 89-LB9, my son had one of them and it ran pretty good. So to say a 305 is a dog, is not factual. They were ok during their time.
Just one man's blabbing...

89IrocZ350TPI

Well in reality stock lb9 cars, and l98's are dogs compared to the newer cars. Its just technology. lg4-lb9-l98-lt1-ls1-ls2-ls3-ls7-ls9 who knows whats next.

danziger

I'll buy that a well-tuned L69 could take a 1983-85 5.0 Fox. I may even agree that it would give the 1985-86 5.0 Foxes a good run. However, I also lived at Atco Dragway (literally lived 5 miles away) during the 1980s and 90s and have seen just about every combination of Mustang vs F-body race you can imagine (not to mention the illegal racing at Front Street in Philly) and have owned multiple examples of each and just don't see 305s beating the 1987-93 5.0s very often.
As I mentioned in my original post, a L98 Formula/IROC with 3.23/3.27s would give the 5.0s all they could handle and even the LB9s/M5s put up a decent fight, but a lightweight 5.0/M5 LX with 3.08s was at the top of the pecking order.
And for the record, I agree that the 305 isn't a dog.

89IrocZ350TPI

A new civic would take down an old school 305. How is that not a dog? lol

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Words in bold, please read them out loud, lol.

He was saying "back in the day" they weren't dog...which is even debatable.

NY3RDGEN

89IrocZ350TPI Dude. If you really hate Thirdgens why do you post so often. I beleive theres a forum called LSX.com. Go there and hate on our cars please.
Im not trying to be rude, but it seems that anytime anyone says anything remotely positive about our cars. You immediatly respond negatively. What gives ?

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

LS1 God complex, it happens a lot, lol.

89IrocZ350TPI

I have two thirdgens... lol All I said was the 305 is a dog. I know I have one. umadbrah?

danziger

I should have said "wasn't" a dog. The LB9s were pretty respectable back in the day. Twenty years later, not so much...

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

My vote is with Danziger... the 87 and up Fox bodies were fast and light...
My friend had one in highschool... 5 speed and another an auto...
I have a 91 5.0 TPI 5 speed Formula and it was one of the fastest 3rd gens I've ridden in, but not as fast as that 87 Mustang...

Raf

89IrocZ350TPI

I will agree with that. lg4/lo3, not so much. Those are only good for boat anchors.

cIaRmOaCrZo

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!! nobody realy believes a lb9 CAN legitimatly beat 5.0 mustang. (yeah its not easily achieved) but even my "old tymer" dad has told me the same thing you just did, im too young to know how it was when all of this came out. he said when the tpi iroc's were HOT cars when they came out. and i DO beat fox body 5.0's!!! and i deff do now with the slight mods i got.

cIaRmOaCrZo

beside the fact that iv proved to myself an lb9 can beat a stock 5.0 (most will say im full of ****), this thread was originaly asking if a 350!!!!! could beat a 5.0..... and if we are talkin L98??? the hell yeah it better!!! now i cant say that about the non tpi 350's only becuase lack of knowlege about them.

cIaRmOaCrZo

AND NO IT WAS NOT v6 stangs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those cars are an embarrassment to society

danziger

I guess that I am an "old tymer" like your father because I actually lived through these car's heyday...

Nevermind that I bought a brand-new 1989 Formula 5.0 WS6 from Prestige Pontiac in NJ and raced it as often as possible.
Nevermind that I lived less than 5 miles from Atco Dragway throughout the whole period when 3rdGens, Turbo Buicks and 5.0 Stangs were the top dogs.
Nevermind that I currently own a 1991 L98 Formula and have also owned two (1989 and 1992) 5.0 Mustang GTs.

The crux of the matter is power-curve, weight and gearing.

I love the 3rdGens, but have to call 'em the way I see 'em...

danziger

There were no non-TPI 5.7 3rdGens from the factory.

The light-weight L98 F-bodys (low-option Formulas, 1LEs, and stripper IROCs) would give the 5.0 Stangs all they could handle. Especially because it is a little more difficult to launch a Fox-body on street tires. The L98s would often trap the same, or even a little higher despite being saddled with the 700R4. This race could very well come down to the drivers...
Further causing grief for 3rdGens, the 5.0 Foxes responded very well to cheap and simple modifications and finding a bone-stock one was a rarity...even in the 1990s.

danziger

Well I am certainly not calling you a liar. However, your results certainly don't reflect the norm...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

"Twenty years later, not so much" lol.....?

The 305 is plagued with an anemic bore, and there isn't much you can do about it because of the water jacket issue. Guys here at E-Town and Atco were constantly throwing parts that would exclusively work for the L98 onto the LB9, hoping it would make a difference, when it only hindered its performance. Then they tried stroking the 305's even more, which just choked it even more upstairs. One of the greatest mistakes is not building the engine based on it's bore in relation to it's 3.48" stroke. This is why fella's of the 80's and 90's weren't getting them to run right, they were trying to make 350's out of them. In fact, I would have to respectfully disagree with what I quoted you saying, as on the contrary, it would be more fitting to say, and I'm paraphrasing; "twenty years later, and they finally got it right". The tuned port injection system flows more than enough air to feed a 305, hell, it flows more than enough air to feed a 383, this has been proven already, as the 255 g/sec resolution limitation factor is simply for transitional load, not WOT. I posted an article on the second page w/the Engine Masters 305 build, and they threw down some impressive numbers because they gave the engine what it wants (RIP Grumpy). Let's not forget the boost factor, as there is a guy here running an '87 Monte SS w/stock 305, but with Tuned Port Injection, and a T67 Turbo, well into the tens without breaking a sweat. That was unheard of in the 80's, and they were only scratching the surface in the 90's....

danziger

I'm failing to see your point of your as the discussion is about pretty much stock vehicles. Once modded, all bets are off. Even in that regard, the Ford 5.0 responds very well to mods.
However, I will agree that a stockish TPI will feed a 383 as I did just that on my 1990 Corvette.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The point is, is that it is an entirely new ball game today, not to mention technology advancing beyond the normal standard of yesterday. Yes, back in the 80's, enthusiasts were laughing at the LB9 engine, but we live in a time today where both 4 and 6-cyl engine's, mind you, engines that were used as boat anchors back then, are now running in the 6's. From a racing standpoint, ten seconds is ten seconds, and it doesn't matter how you get there, nor does it matter what the curve looks like, all that matters is trap and ET. Preston Smith has run mid tens with his Vortech inspired LB9 before he switched to a 4" bore, and he did this at a full race weight of 3800 pounds w/driver, and this was back in the early 90's (see "Kinetic Engineering"). Today, more and more people are turbo charging 305's over the 350's because they are less prone to detonation....

That was the point of the , it was not an attack on you personally, it is just that people are proving those words wrong every night at the track. Yes, LB9's have their limitations, stock, but once you start running sub ten second times with them with a turbo charger, who cares what the 5.0 Mustang does on the dyno. The 305'sl have their place now more than ever, and they are more than capable of a solid foundation, thanks to today. The days of the 80's and 90's "Camaro vs Mustang" are over, as now, and I'm reiterating, it is an entirely new ball game. Again, this response has nothing to do with LB9 vs 5.0, and everything to do with the comment of the LB9's not being respectable twenty years later, today....

89IrocZ350TPI

Of course lb9s can be fast if you mod them, just like anything else. I just dont see the point in working with a weak motor. The new ls3 cars are putting down 365-370wrh right out of the box. Why not work with a newer design over an outdated one? Bigger motor, with more power, and it will also respond better to the most basic mods. It would also be more expensive to get a 305 into the tens. All the ls3 needs is h/c/e Maybe its just a matter of opinion I guess.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

In all honesty, an engine is an engine, and if it works, then go out and have fun. Yes, the LSX engines are that more advanced, but then you have to ask, why are they advanced? An engine is an engine, it's a giant air pump. The TPI's came with crummy heads and cam, the LSX's came with GOOD heads and cam, the TPI's came with 8-bit processor's, the LSX's came with 16-bit processor's. Out of the boxy, sure, the LSX dominates. But mod for mod? An engine is still an engine. I own an LS1, in fact, I gave it to the wife awhile back to use as an everyday driver. But I hang out with an LC2 crowd (Grand Nationals, TTA's), and the average LSX couldn't hold a candle to their 80's technology at the track (and ifyou thought that the LB9's came with horrible heads, just wait until you see a stock LC2's lol)....

tpivette89

heres a reason. it costs a minimum of $30k for a person to get a vehicle equipped with a LS3 today (G8). LS3 Vettes are still above 30k used. For someone like me who just had to sell his LT4 Corvette due to the birth of his firstborn child, i cant go out and spend that kind of $$ for a car with the "best technology" motor. however, a 305 or even a 350 fbody will only cost me around $3000 for a really good example. even considering the cost it would require to get one into the tens, its still well under what it would cost for me to buy the LS3 equipped vehicle and then buy the mods it would need to run 10s

sure everyone would like the "better" cars from the factory, but not everyone can afford them as a starting point

89IrocZ350TPI

I wasnt talking about the car itself. I was talking about strickly the engine. An LSX swap isnt very expensive. Why not start with a better building block? Maybe I am just biase because I have built l98's in the past and didnt get the performance I was looking for.

89IrocZ350TPI

Well the lc2's are not exactly all motor. lol. All you have to do is jack up the boost to beat "stock" ls1 cars. Find me a boosted ls1 car then we will talk.

tpivette89

its more expensive than you think. all the little things will nickel and dime you to death. and a LS1 isnt a LS3. big difference

you went the bolton route and got little performance. spent alot of $$ too im willing to bet. had you gone straight for 10s instead, you couldve gotten alot further with your money

either way, it be easier and cheaper to build what you already had, instead of spending extra $$ to replace the motor with a much more expensive one, and then start building

StevenB L98/LS1

For a quick example WHY!!!! Some people cant go out and get those damn ls1 motors, okay let me start with a story here. Guy that was the 2nd owner of my TA that i now own didnt like the numbers that were put on the dyno of the very little mods he wanted to do on the l98. He wasnt any richer than me, but he wanted another ls1 car, so i bought his car that wasnt in very good running shape because of what the mods were done, i had go to complete square one on the l98 to get it running extremely good, that meant getting the car back to stock formation, which took me about a year to do, im not a rich person at all. And let me tell you now the guy that sold me the car had to take out 3 loans and up in debt to his *** because he had to have the badass little ls1 ss camaro that was in crappy shape, he only paided 7k for the car, the engine was crap, my l98 could walk all over his car when he first bought it, and then shortly the tranny out of his ss went out, and look what happened. THE CAR HASNT SEEN THE ROAD IN 1 YEAR NOW! So as far as modding a car, he justed wanted to do the simple bolt ons just to go the easy way out to get horsepower. Now he cant do that because he will be in debt for a few years, but i stayed clear out of debt, and can start modding out the l98 before he can even start touching his ss again.

It all depends on peoples money situation, people can say o why dont you just go the easy way out and buy a ls1 motor, sorry.... but sometimes we arent rich. the only people i know of that ls1 cars modded up with rich and spoiled, sorry im not racist, im just telling it how i see it.

What im just trying to point out is, we dont always have the money to mod out the ls1 motor, there expensive. Build up a OLD SCHOOL motor is a lot cheaper, and you can build up some good respectable numbers in torque and horsepower to run against ls1 modded cars. If you build a l98 for nitrous the right way, the ls1s arent gonna be putting up a close fight, ive seen stock l98s with bolt ons with nitrous, nuthing major at all, pretty much still stock with bolt ons, you can race against ls1s that way and have good chances of winning. Now im not willing to just put nitrous on my stock motor unless i got another small block laying around which i dont.

cIaRmOaCrZo

i hear ya lol.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Okay, find me any boosted LSX car (including corvettes), any one, that can top this daily driven, factory offered, boosted TPI car that was built twenty years ago, then we can talk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8dI-47Z2hI

89IrocZ350TPI

I had a feeling you would post this haha. Yeah its pretty evil. How much did it cost back in the day? I know it had a high top speed but I am not sure of the 0-60, and 1/4 specs. Only boosted lsx motors I can think of are the 2010 hennessey camaro and the ZR1..

Also. Why are people saying ls1's are expensive? They are over ten years old!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm sure someone will get an LSX to outrun it, it's only a matter of time. 0-60 was 3.9 seconds, and 1/4 mile was 10.6 @ 127, weight was 3503-lbs, straight from Calloway. My only point was that TPI has been in the sevens in the 1/4 mile (no, not street legal lol), has been 254-mph through Calloway Corvettes, and can be tuned to get excellent gas mileage. Kind of like, been there, done that, so why even argue. Nowadays, guys are adapting all different methods of engine control to these engines, and we're getting them to run much more efficient than the factory ever did. An engine is an engine, give it what it wants, and it'll give you what you want. Speaking of which, I'm actually gunning for Gary Donovan's Reliant w/my Camaro 2.8 turbo next year (and if you thought TPI's were tough to work with lol)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ETwlfWpens

StevenB L98/LS1

It doesnt matter if there 10 years old, new modern technology means a lot more money, all motorsports shops charge out *** for work on ls1 cars compared to lt1 cars which im starting to see. Plus there a 347 block, you cant change the motor so easily like you can with just a 350 from tpi converting to carb etc....

My buddies 88 iroc build 406 sbc kills ls1 cars every day out of the week, and his cost on that 406 engine was no near what his ls1 cost when he was doing the build on one. OLD SCHOOL ROCKS!

89IrocZ350TPI

haha that thing is sick.

NY3RDGEN

Sheeple,,... I mean people, like LS1 cars because. Most of our little "car guys" talk about them in there high school parking lots like there rocket ships. and they can take out anything thats not an LS1. Even those shitty little prostreet cars with the old crappy SBC's. Myt point is any motor can run if done properly, 305, 350, 346, 383 406, ect.. I have taken down quit a few LS1's in my little old outdated TPI equipped 305. Stock heads and all. 1 more point i want to make, LS1's run great at the 1/4 track. Thats were they make there power, on the top end. If its on the street (like the board were on right now) a 14 or 13 sec TPI can, and will take 12 second LS1's all day up to the 1/8th, or stoplight to stoplight. I know, I do it all the time. And 12 sec TPI cars eat 12sec LSX cars light to light. With proper suspension, and knowing how to hook all that TQ to the pavement.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

jut throwing this out there. My 1992 Z28 350 G92 auto car. With my Big *** sterio(2 12's in box and amps in the hatch) and 200 pound pass. and my 200 pound butt went 14.4 at 96 MPH with nothing but a cat back.

89IrocZ350TPI

You beat ls1 cars in your 305? hehehe. Is it supercharged?

On another note my full bolt on l98 would run side by side my stock ls1 until about 75 mph. After that it was game over. From a roll it wouldnt even be close. tpi has one place and thats at low rpms.

89IrocZ350TPI

With a 96 mph trap speed you might have a 13.9 pass in there. My old L98 hit 13.8 at 96 with the old 2.77 rear.

StevenB L98/LS1

I fail to see the logic in why the ls1 was ever brought up. This thread was suppost to talk about the 302 stang and the 350 chevy small block. Not 347 ls1's.

89IrocZ350TPI

346.

I think it started cuz I said my 305 is a dog. Then people with 305's got mad. lol.

302 vs 350 = drivers race. I think I said that a few times already ahahaha

StevenB L98/LS1

True, Blah you know i dont read up on ls1s.

But it doesnt mean its totally a drivers race if both cars are modded, with some good gears to back it up. And i will admit, ive driven 305 tpi, i say there okay get up and go cars, but trust me, with people i know that build up 305s they can be nasty little small blocks, such as building up the 305 tbi cars, ive seen em dynoed at 325 at the rear wheels. Its not always about the parts you put into the motor, its knowing on how to building it right. But then again some people are just happy enough with a 305, some people just appreciate what they have and that maybe why they got pissed.

89IrocZ350TPI

Stock for stock I actually like the 302 over the 350. Mod for mod your really cant beat displacement.

danziger

Holy going off-topic, Batman! :rofl:

danziger

Yes. LS1 owners are "sheeple" and "little 'car guys'" in "high-school parking lots". You, however, are obviously a worldly, broad-horizoned individual that is accepting and inclusive in nature. Your tolerance and support of fellow enthusiasts is to be lauded and documented.

berlin305

iTrader: (2)

okay since were on about info about 305s and 350s. what would you all have to say 350 block with 305 heads? hmmm any opinions?

danziger

"Racist"? Did I miss something in there?

I'm also stereotyped as "rich and spoiled"...hilarious!