Black88Z

I know 3rd gen formys and IROCs came with pretty advanced suspension for their day, but how would they stand up to the other cars used nowadays? I know little miatas and s2000s are popular because they're so light, but I would be more interested in using my iroc. I can build the suspension for it, I guess what I am asking is are the a good/decent car for it or would I be better off buying another car to do auto-x? Is the TPI motor a good platform for it?

plum92_camaro

I haven't been on a large road racing course but the autoX group i run with races on an old go-kart track (not through cones in a parking lot), but from my experience i would say YES! these are excellent cars for corner carving racing! Keep in mind that driver makes a HUGE difference in times in autoX/road racing.

http://nqsperformance.com/Pages/Auto...ults.aspx.html

here is a link to the results of the last event i was in. I'm the only 92 camaro. This was with my stock, worn out, suspension with 180k on it and a 305tbi. Haven't been able to make an event this year yet but July 13 i get to try out my new upgraded suspension! That 2010 SS in there is a good example. Everytime he gets close to my times he spins out. thats why he ran 7 seconds slower. I also run faster than my buddy's 08 bullitt mustang gt. I'm 2 seconds slower than my other buddy's s2000 but thats not stock suspension. Like i said this is all on my old stock worn out stuff. i'm real anxious to try out all the new toys. sure feels like a new car on the streets!

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/auto...-up-dance.html

this link was posted today, BADNBLK was giving the new ZL1s a run for there money. His car was Car of the Month a while back if you want to see his mod list.

Copperhead

The IROC is a great platform if you have race tires to kill the tail-happiness. A stock TPI motor will be gutless on the straights compared to any newer V8 stuff but easy to drive cause it can be driven flat-out most of the time. My Z28 was stock except for Konis and 180 treadwear tires and it was a blast!

paul_huryk

Third gens have always given good performances at both the autocross and road race events - even against newer cars with "advanced" suspensions.

I have a few CMC cars running CTW Motorsports wheels and they all run against 4th gens and the Fox body Fords. The Stangs can't compete against the f-bodies, especially with the rules that must be complied by. But the 3rd gens can easily keep up with the 4th gens on the same sized tires - a few of my CMC guys have gained several seconds a lap by moving up to a wider tire (255-50-16 to 275-40-17) that the 4th gens all use. These cars have strict power limits, so the playing field is rule equalized (to a point).

Power is easy to add, good handling is not - just ask the Fox guys how they can barely keep up with the f-bodies even with a fully done suspension on a demanding road course...

kmcn47

motor trend did rate a thirdgen as "the best handling car in the world" granted that was in 84 lol

Copperhead

You will find, however that tight autocross courses are not F-body friendly. It's a wide, nose-heavy car that can be a little hard to place accurately through the cones compared to, say, a Miata or VW GTI. Hell, just our doors are twice as thick...

We're much more at home on a roadcourse or open autocross.

Black88Z

Thanks for all the responses guys, its very helpful.

Plum92- that is very impressive, especially on a "shot" suspension. Must be the driver huh? Haha

But I love the car, its fairly stock for now. My goal is to make it fun to drive on the street, run a respectable 1/4 (low 12s at least) but handle excellently. I will only go to the strip and the road course occasionally but I want it to handle well and be fun to drive while I'm not racing it too. I'm not sure if I'm gonna stay tpi or not, I like the low end grunt of it. I'm thinking of a motor that will make power from 2-5k, maybe shifting at abt 5500.. I can have my 700r4 built up, I have a shift kit for it and a corvette servo for it. I think I'm going to stay away from a stall convertor, just driveablity(and mpgs haha). I'm hoping for no less than 350hp crank, shooting more for 400.. i have also been considering swapping to carbed, which would be better for roadcourse racing?

kmcn47

that depends alot on variables, the carb will be alot more work to keep running right if your road course racing the car, or auto x-ing while 350-400 hp with a tpi has been done before

kmcn47

also hell yes these are good road race cars, has noone heard of the players challenge series before?

Black88Z

Thanks for the response. I honestly haven't heard of it, but the video says 1987 I believe? I will admit I am a complete novice when it comes to autox/road course racing. Id be more interested in road course racing. I have been into drag racing and am familiar with it but this is a completely different ballpark.

Is 350hp enough for a roadcourse car? Is 400 enough/better? Is 5/5500rpm high enough? 6k?

Any and all info/advice is needed and appreciated haha

Black88Z

Also, how are lt1s for roadcourse racing? Ls1s? I've heards tpis are better than ls's because the powerband is lower, but I've heard mixed things about lt1s.

kmcn47

you should ask this guy, he swapped an lt1 and currently runs cmc in his 3rd gen, imo your too concerned about power in road course racing, and a slight disadvantage you have is an automatic, it can not want to shift when you want it to sometimes on track, really unless you want to t-5 or t-56 swap the car then focus more on your suspension and how the car handles, take you pick as to whats a better strut koni yellows or bilstien because you wont find a clear answer on the forumns i like bilstien because of the very heavy construction and the fact that the "performance package" gm cars usually get them, when was the last time alot of steering and susp parts where changed? ball joints, tie rods, bushings? energy suspension sells a complete front end bushing kit, a wonderbar, maybe an stb and you should be all set, the cars in the players challenge series started with l69 305s but later they moved to special lb9 tpi 305s (factory sealed, hot cam) because you couldnt get a 5spd with a 350 that engine made something like 270-ish hp and the cars had rollcages fitted along with special brembo calipers, how are your brakes? because the stock stuff with duralast pads just aint gonna cut it, find someone who sells a good cross vane rotor (if your car isn't 4 wheel disc look for a disc rear it will help, the 1le setup is better then stock, but then the ls1 brake setup is even better and costs vary, the most important thing for being quick around a road course though is you, doesnt matter how fast you make the car if you're out there overshooting the apex of a corner and killing your brakes it wont matter, the best thing for that is seat time, find a course that hold sopen trackdays and practice practice practice, maybe do a few autocrosses just to really push yourself and get a better feel for how the car will act and react at speed and while hard cornering DO NOT PRACTICE ON THE STREET OR A BACKROAD, the last thing we need is another guy wrecking his camaro and possibly killing himself or someone else because he wanted to play speed racer. some people might laugh at this but get a wheel and pedals and try out iracing or gran turismo just to get a better understanding of the fundamentals of road course racing

kmcn47

here is the guy i mentioned https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memb...road-race.html

T/Aperformance

If your just starting out in road racing or auto cross, Don't worry about more power, or having the best suspension parts, Just have good tire and shocks and start doing it, Its best to start off and really get to know your car and learn to drive the car, Most people think they are a good driver when they start this kind of racing, there is a big learning curve, every track is different so walking the track is very important. Finding the right line on the track, Listen during the racers meeting,
You might think your car is not as fast as others, and wont be as exciting, but you will learn the third gen platform is right for this, Later after you have learned how your car performs and how to run the coarse, then you can upgrade your suspension and move up in class, then work on power. Even adding sub frame connectors will move you to an upper class.

plum92_camaro

Go try some events the way your car is now. The drive mod (seat time and experience) is the #1 mod for road racing. Besides, then you'll know where you really should start modifying your car. Read the suspension boards, there are tons of questions about getting into AutoX/RR. If I remember the mod list in order is. ...

1. Driver
2. Wide wheels and tires (275)
3. Struts and socks
4. Springs

There is more but i can't remember it all. I would stick with the TPI over carb. It's not difficult to get a custom chip. Don't try to win it all first time out, road racing is bigger tracks and higher speeds, you don't want your rookie mistake to be your car piled up on the wall. AutoX is lower speeds due to the smaller tighter courses but still a VERY thrilling experience. Another way to say it is, autoX is road racing but without the long straightaway. This fact is what has made my little 305tbi so competitive, I don't have to drag race these 300 to 500hp cars down the straightways. I'd lose for sure! Straight lines are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers. Besides AutoX is like $25 dollars for a day and Road race/track days/HPDE's are like $275 and up.

paul_huryk

Depends on the rules and the course - CMC limits power to a certain level and other series have higher limits - if any.

The problem is putting that power to the road - 300hp may work well, but 400hp might cause major issues coming out of a corner under high G loading.

Handling > braking > power

lunati397

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/3840792871.html

for sale right now wish I could get it

T/Aperformance

Yes that's a nice car, I saw it in the other thread you made about it. Are you making money on the car if you sell it. Just kidding here. It is a nice car for a good low price when you consider what it would cost to build or have it built.
But for someone just starting off in this sport, Your basic thirdgen is better to learn how race, Most people who have cars like this have a lot of experience and are very competitive,
For the OP. just keep your car stock, See if where you are going to race have any classes, Read the rule book, And get track time before adding upgrades. It's best to learn how to drive and better your lap times, once your driving is smooth and your lap times are consistent and you are competitive in your class, then start upgrades, Each class has rules to what you can upgrade in that class, and that includes shocks , springs sub frame, connectors lower control arms,
There is things you can do to make your car more competitive like getting your tire pressure just right for performance. But the best thing is going to be seat time. there is a lot to learn and keep a written log of just about every thing you do to your car and your lap times, See what has made you and your car do better lap times, Put a video cam in your car so you can review it, this will tell you where you may need to improve, how and where you enter a turn to find the apex, where to improve your braking into a turn, and to excel out of the turn,

lunati397

not making any money but its just a well built car

Black88Z

Thanks everyone, good advice. I'm not sure where the nearest RR or AX events are held, or their rules. I'm still looking into that. My 350tpi runs well, but I have an overheating issue I'm chasing down. Other than that it runs flawlessly, trans shifts well, and it has 4 wheel disk with 3.23 gears. Oddly enough, as of now it does have duralast pads haha.

I do have drilled/slotted rotors for the front, just haven't put them on yet. I plan to buy them for the rear as well. I need to do some other brake mods, but I'm not sure what would be best, I'm kinda thinking I may put ls1 brakes up front and between drilled/slotted rotors, high performance pads and braided lines I think (hope) the stock calipers in the rear will be good enough. I can have my trans and rear end done for free (besides cost of parts) because my dad owns a transmission shop. I'm planning a good solid shift kit (already have a transgo kit for it, not installed yet) and corvette servo, with probably 3.43 gears. How's that sound?

I don't plan to do this every weekend, and most likely not once a month. It may turn into that, but for now I'm thinking ~5x a yr. I also plan to drag race it occasionally though, so I want it to be a fairly well rounded car. I don't necissarily care if I'm the best there or not, I just want to go and have fun, and maybe make some new racing buddies haha.

plum92_camaro

Do some reading on the brake board. I would do the braided lines but I've read some mixed reviews in whether drilled or slotted rotors help. LS1 brakes would be a nice mod. IMHO you WILL have fun with an IROC. IROCs were designed for racing hence the reason IROCs got the wanderbar, 16x8 wheels, and 245 tires. I've had a blast with my 92 RS with a 305tbi and rear drums!

Horus

3RD Gens had amazing handling in their day. The very top tier of todays import/tuner cars have a slight, and I mean really slight edge over the 3RD Gen platform in stock form. If you want a cheap alternative that has better handling than even the top tier of todays import/tuner cars...look at the 3RD GENs big brother, the C4 Vette is dirt cheap right now, and the handling numbers are better than a GTR, which needs a really good day and a few try's to maybe hit 1G cornering.

Black88Z

Very cool, thanks guys. You have definetly talked my into it! Lol I don't know if I will do it stock or not, I would prefer to but I don't know if I trust the car (mostly motor). Its got 112k on it, I beat on it some but I'm not sure how it would do under the constant beating. I plan to rebuild it, but I'm not rebuilding it to stock. So when I rebuild it will most likely put me in a higher class. I suppose that's ok, because I plan to install sfc and stb for sure, and I have some 4th gen zl1 rims 17x9s that I can put some rubber on. It will also give me more time to get used to the car and perfect the suspension. I will probably shot for 350hp, and stay TPI. 350 is plenty to have fun in, keeps the car street-able, should be fairly easy to hit, and still will be fun/respectable at the strip. I have plans of buying another car to build soley for drag racing anyways, so 350hp with the right gears and possiblya manual trans swap even should make me happy. I'm very glad to know 3rd gens are great candidates for autox and road course racing. Hopefully if any of you guys are in the greater charlotte NC area I will see some of you there in the future!

T/Aperformance

I believe you are thinking right with your build plans, but even stock should get you a good start on really learning how to drive, Now be warned this type of racing like any type of racing is very addictive,
For a track near you Don't you live near a big track, I would check with them. Also check with SCCA and see what tracks are near you. I'm kind of lucky that my local drag tip also has a road coarse and an oval that nascar used to use.

T/Aperformance

I was just kidding about you making money off the car, And I agree its a well built car and for what they are asking for it I think its a good deal. If I had the money and a place to keep it I would buy it.

paul_huryk

Agreed about the handling of the 3rd gen back in the day...

Advocating a C4 Vette is not a good idea - they are money pits (like when the digital dash craps out), and parts are much more expensive. Plus setup the same, they are not better handlers than the 3rd gens, only on bumpy roads do they handle better.

All you need in an IROC or WS6 TA to pull 1G is a set of summer 275-40-17 tires along with a stock suspension (all new OEM parts) and a set of Koni Yellows properly set. It isn't too hard to have a 1.1g street 3rd gen with the right parts and setup.

Beater79TA

Solve your overheating issue before you take it to a track. You will find that during track events there are only 2 throttle positions you use, off and all the way on. Even 60 or 70 seconds at WOT can cause a lot of heat on a longer autox course. Several minutes on a road course can cause even more issues under sustained WOT.

As far as events, if you're in NC, take a look at www.americanstreetcarseries.com for some events within a few hours drive that combine autox, road course, and speed stop challenges into a single event. Go as a spectator if you don't want to drive at it. I haven't met anyone at one of their events yet that wasn't open to chatting about technique and giving ride alongs to people who want to learn. Also look up the local SCCA groups and check out their events. Spectators are usually free for SCCA autox days.

As for the TPI 3rd gen being a good platform, that depends on the course. I've won Super Chevy Show autox events with a bone stock all original 1990 IROC vert before. That course had very short straights that favored motors making low end torque vs top end HP. Currently the GTA we race is running a TPIS Miniram that seems to give us good top and bottom end. Suspension has never really been an issue as much as overall vehicle weight and balance though. The closer we get it to 50/50 balance side to side and front to rear, the better the car behaves in all the events.

Horus

Most of the people I know that road race C4s don't keep the dash o doom. It is funny when the little import car owners try to defend their cars with the "It handles better than those big American cars", then you pull up the lateral acceleration rating and show that American cars 20+years ago pulled better numbers than their little fart can rides.

kmcn47

that and the "dirt cheap" c4s are usually cfi cars, and while i rather like the cfi engines and dont have a problem with them, everyone seems to hate them

Horus

I was talking stock numbers, anything you can do to an F-body for handling you can do to a Y-body, and get better numbers.
I absolutely love my IROC, I am not however going to ignore the truth, when I drive my older Vette (91), there is a noticeable difference in feel and control vs the IROC (88), the Vette pulls better numbers on paper and feels better in real life. Around a corner at a high rate of speed the IROC will have more body roll and it will come on much sooner than the Vette. Both of those models are 20+ years old tho, for a treat try out a C6, I got one last year and it is ridiculous on corners.
If your doing any kind of racing that requires stock parts, the C4 comes from the factory with dual exhaust, manual trans, and a 350. I don't even think 3rd gen F-bodies were offered with a 350 manual, I know I was looking for 1 for a while and had to settle for a 350 automatic.
As far as a money pit .. I've had to put less in the old Vette than the IROC, but I drive the IROC a lot more.

Howie

I'm over in Harrisburg and will be done with my freshly built 85 Trans AM for NASA American Iron. Car was completely gutted and built from the ground up for road racing. If you want to see it first hand, Pm me and I'll shoot you my contact info.

paul_huryk

Stock numbers, while meaningful for comparison sake, were pretty darn close for both cars - considering the similar size in tires, weight, and other items, you can't fault either car.

I've personally never heard of Y-bodies handling better than similarly equipped f-bodies on the same tires, unless the road is really bumpy. Then again, except for the LT1 cars, Vettes are pretty much 5th and 6th generation centric now.

That is one of the good things about the C4 - better feel in the steering and on the road compared to the F-bodies, but that is subjective at best.

I believe you are incorrect about the Corvette exhaust system - it is a 2 into 1 (at the cat) and back out to 2, similar to the F-body exhaust, just with different routing and 2 separate mufflers. My 85 C4 had that exhaust setup.

You are correct, GM did not offer a manual with the L98 F-bodies due to the T5 only having enough TQ capacity for the LB9. Keep in mind the pre ZF Vettes had that horrible 4+3 manual that no one wanted, plus the ZF was not a bolt in for the F-bodies (SLP had to cut the tunnel for the firehawks to fit that trans). I know a few people who swapped out their autos for T5s on their L98 F-bodies and never had a problem (when the cars were new) and would outrun the Vettes of the same year.

Horus

I'm just saying from my experience they cost about the same for parts, but cars are dirt cheap to buy, and to me it feels like the Vette grips the road slightly better. Both cars are low mileage and 100% stock.

plum92_camaro

Sunday I did my first parking lot/cone course autoX event. I've always run on an old go kart track. I beat the C4 vette by 1-2 seconds. Granted it could be driver. He was not smooth but did look fast. Only other vette I've run with is a C6 and he kills me.

Horus

Congratz on the win.

plum92_camaro

Thanx, it feels good to best the camaro's big brother (the corvette). I'm not trying to brag, autoX has been a very fun, exciting, and rewarding experience for me and I'm trying to use my experiences to encourage and inspire the OP or anyone else who may read this.

I also beat the 5.0 Fox by 2-3 seconds! Ok, that part was bragging.

paul_huryk

You know if you didn't, you would catch some ribbing - they don't do all that well on autocross...

Horus

Beating a Corvette is something to brag about their handling characteristics, and engines give their drivers a slight edge...so you plainly outclassed his driving.

This is nothing to brag about since Mustangs corner like grandma's mobility scooter, they get embarrassed in any contest where there's anything that remotely resembles a turn.

plum92_camaro

As much as i agree that the f-body is superior to the fox, look at the first link in my first post (#2). Look at the first/fastest car. The NQS team also has a 93 Cobra that runs 1:20's. I run 1:27. Those 2 foxes have complete aftermarket suspension and race tires. I was stock. I don't have any times on that track this year with my new suspension but should have some next saturday!!

If you browse the site a lil you will find the event from june 2013. look at that one. i was out of state during that but i was real glad to see a stock camaro (even if it is a 5thgen) running in the top. I've been the fastest camaro on that track for the 3 years i've been running with them. That 93 cobra was at that event, it's time is at the bottom with the NQS team. I was also glad to see a fellow thirdgener on there with his 91 bird.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

"This is nothing to brag about since Mustangs corner like grandma's mobility scooter, they get embarrassed in any contest where there's anything that remotely resembles a turn."

BEST. QUOTE. EVER!!!! hahahahahaha!!