Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

I want my iroc to be competitive and even have the upper edge on modern cars. For example, 5th gens (426hp) , srt8's (470hp), new boss mustang (444hp), etc.

If I had a LQ9/T56 with 3.73's or 4.10's and 295-305 rear tires; what horsepower at the wheels am I looking at to reach my goal in street scenarios.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

400 plus to the wheels would be a good match for most modern cars

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is exactly what the AV Boys' Mustang is doing all over youtube, he's keeping it old school, and is taking down some pretty high tech cars. You only need enough horsepower to support how fast you want to trap at the end of the quarter mile, then from there, focus on vehicle weight and launch. Can't get any more old school than that, and it works...

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Wow, that stang is no joke.

So I'm thinking 410 rwhp will put me at my goal. Thats with the T56, 4.10 gears out back, sticky tires and the suspenison needed to hook.

paul_huryk

I'm going to agree with Phil on this...

Keep in mind that a new 2010+ SS Camaro weighs 4100lbs, where a heavy 3rd gen comes in at 3600 - a 500lb advantage. 426hp in a 4100lb car is a theoretical 110.5mph in the quarter, while a 3600lb car only needs 375hp to match that speed - 50hp less...

It's all about the power to weight ratio plus a good 60's time. Every domestic V8 car now is a fat cow, exception being the Corvette. Challenger, Mustang, Camaro - all weigh hundreds of lbs more than us even with all aluminum motors. Weight slows you down!

I like to think about it this way, if you were to swap an LS3 (same motor as the Camaro SS), plus headers and exhaust necessary, you would have about 460hp in a 3540lb packge (at the high end of weight). That 460hp can run well into the 11's at close to 120mph - ZL1 territory. Say you pump up your LS3 to 550hp (really easy), it would add another 7 to 9mph and possibly break into the 10's in street trim.

DeltaElite121

Even most stroked 351's don't make anywhere near what he's doing. If that really is all NA power, he's really maximized the living hell out of that whole car. Pretty impressive, really. Awesome little motor, heh.

1BADDAM

I made 411 rwhp 450 rwtq with time below in sig. I would handedly feed the aforementioned cars their lunch.

jaybdaboat

I was thinking of making a thread exactly like this. I barely beat an intrepid with my old lo5, i went an got an lt1. So I been over at ls1lt1.com and they were telling me to forget about hp and focus more on power to weight. Them (stock 5th gens) being close to 4k pounds and us being closer to 3k we only need about 300rwhp to keep them at bay, for stock 5th gens. Once they start modding its a different story. But to answer your question high 11s low 12s?

paul_huryk

I wouldn't worry about those cars moded as the weight still holds them back. I was talking to LG motorsports about the 5th gens the other day - they mentioned that a cam-heads fully tuned LS3 with a nitrous kit would break into the 10's. That same motor power level would push a 3rd gen into the low 10's if not high 9's...

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I can tell you this, my 89 RS with a cam and carbed 6.0 lq4, t56 with 4.30s...didn't find much that could beat it. And on a 150 shot, MURDER. Was destroying nearly anything that was in my path. Wish I didn't wreck it. But, same engine setup is in my 80 coupe, and it is 400 pounds lighter.

If you can cut weight it helps too. My 89 was 3150 lbs with a 12 bolt rear and subframe connectors.

plum92_camaro

Why keep up with modern tech when you can beat it? Like a lot of other people said, these new cars are HEAVY. Just match their horsepower, make it hook and the weight will take care of the rest.

Dakota W.

DEAR GOD, I'VE NEVER SEEN A WHEELIE ON THE STREET BEFORE! HOLY SH**!

86White_T/A305

5th gens havent not been an issue for me so far since I seem to run into stock ss''s around here but they are heavy cars.At my low power level and handfull of issues my car has i can still hang in with the crowd nicely..4thgens,stangs,chagers/challengers,mild c5's have made for some good fun.

Id say 370whp+ is enough to knock on doors and have newer cars dropping jaw over your 3rdgen.Get the car to hook well..take out some weight and put some guys in place.Im actually thinking of going with a stealth cam to quiet my car down..get longtube headers for a more sleeper effect and make more power.

Blade09

That car must be perfected for street racing. You rarely see under 500 hp stand a car up on the track, but to hook hard enough to almost tap *** on the street is incredible. I've piloted a 500 hp mustang down the track a couple times and even on slicks and vp 110 off a 2500 brake launch it still barely pulls the front end...

If that truly is a sub 500 hp pump gas car, all I can say is... damn.

Z28FAST1

Lol, this is a local car from the streets of LA. It is far from a N/A 331, its closer to 2600 lbs making 800+rwhp and built to run in Outlaw 8.5. These guys are dedicated street racers and are all about "hustling" for $$$$.

Just for comparison, a few years back there was a beat up "305" 89 RS that was claimed to be all motor. Turns out it was a stroked SBC making 550rwhp with an extra 250hp shot

67camarorsss

And THAT'S how you street race...

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

that stang is all huste. dont pay attention to what it claimd. any seasoned street racer can see the bs.
back on topic. 400rw with suspension and good tires. will raise the eyebrows of new car owners.
a younger guy at my work, just got a 5th gen. was alredy bolt ons and tune. i would say its prolly round 400+rw. typical bolt ons,lt,tune car. the guy is new to ls motors.
i ran him one day after work. it was pretty bad. i treed him every time and had a few cars on him every time. he was not too happy. hes looking into upgrading more now.
at first, he was coming off like my car didnt have nothing on him. but lesson learned. he keeps an eye out now for 4th gen camaros now.

paul_huryk

I think that is a normal thought process for people whoo get something "fast" that know nothing about cars. Could be a newbie with a Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, WRX, 911, EVO... Instantly think it must be the best because they were awesome enough to get one. Although it does keep the aftermarket companies busy when the owners decide to upgrade once they get whooped a few times.

Of course you are right about the street racer. Maybe he has 400rwhp at 5500rpm, but the motor makes peak power at 7k. If it sounds too good to be true...

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

^
i guess i can relate. i bought my car brand new. and at times i felt like i was "whats hott on the streets right now" dished out a fair amount of whoopings, but prolly got just as many back. me losing drove me to build the 500rw n/a motor i had, with all the supporting parts.12bolt,built t56,etc. im putting my ss back to dd resto mod bling status.
and building my rs same reason op is asking. to really put a beatdown on just about anything on the street and track. same deal as the stang guy. 4th gens have a rep for being respectable on the track/street. but 3rd gens never got a chance to prove themselves like a 4th gen imo. we have to agree that 3rd gens are looked down upon by most non chevy car guys, most dont expect much from it. i know um using that belief to bait unsuspecting fools and part them with there $.
no different than that above stang posted

jaybdaboat

Yea we are looked down upon nobody on the street will race me, think I'm a slow waste of time. Lol little do they know, most of the thirdgens here are sleepers.

Guest

350 rwhp. I've seen most 5th gen Camaros running right around 13.5 in the quarter. No one here will argue that 350 to the wheels in these cars is a solid mid 12 second car.

M1tch

My 2000 z28 t56 ls1 ran 12.85 at 111 with just intake exhaust stock clutch street tires and dynod 342 whp. Third gens weigh 300-400 pounds less than 4th gens. You should be around 3300-3350 lbs. Build that 6.0 with a good Texas Speed cam 24x-24x .62x lift and get a solid set of 799 heads add a 200 shot of nitrous and your making 670whp. People run stock internals on that setup all day long

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

A bolt on 5th gen can be an 11 sec car. My friends made 424 whp with headers exhaust intake and tune. 5.0 coyotes are tad lighter and also make 400's whp with bolt ons that most owners do. Also 11 sec cars

400whp in typical 3450-3550 lb thirdgen is a starting point. Na motors can do that. I would do that with a 100-150 shot to hang with most new cars or beat them. The vettes, gt500's and zl1's with factory blowers will be easy to mod and 10 second cars without too much effort.

Z06's and nissan gtr's are about 10's with good tire and driver. 550-600 whp from a 150 shot 400-450 whp motor will compete

paul_huryk

Agreed about the 5th gen and Coyote cars running really good with bolt ons. The thing is that with a 3400lb car, you only need 350 rwhp or so to break into the 11's, where you need that 424hp in a portly 5th gen to run about the same times. Weight is the killer.

As you mentioned, a good NA motor with some nitrous can give good times. I happen to have a 400hp 350 in my 84 Camaro and it runs 12.5 at 113mph on street tires; 11.4 at 127mph on a 150hp nitrous hit on the same street tires. Considering the car only has 550 engine hp and is not set up for drag racing, it will easily match or outrun every new car except for a very select few. Adding another 75hp and taking out 150lbs would make it even more fun.

jaybdaboat

350 rwhp vs these new cars and STILL winning will hurt some feelings. Lol.

FRMULA88

The new 5th gen is heavier, but they are about same size as the 1st gen.

The extra "fat" does not come from the size of the car itself, but all the high tech creature comforts the typical consumer just can't live without in a modern car. (nav. power seats, power this, power that,)

Plus the safety features (air bags, abs,)

My '88 has none of this. I only have power windows.

But if you start shedding all that dead weight on a 5th gen, like the COPO cars, you are on par with the 3rd gens as far as "race weight" is concerned.

COPO CAMARO GENERAL INFORMATION:

NHRA shipping weights:
•327/4.0L – 3175 lbs
•327/2.9L – 3250 lbs
•427/N/A – 3195 lbs

http://www.lsxtv.com/features/car-fe...heet-released/

Kevin Lee 487

4th gens weigh maybe 100lbs more than a 3rd gen. Right around 3400-3500.

Gotta remember that the LS1 being aluminum dropped 100lbs from the LT1 and even more from the L98. The quarter panels were also switched to plastic and I believe the hoods are MUCH lighter too. ( I know the hood on my 88 GTA was at least 90lbs. That bitch was heavy. When me and a buddy took the hood off of his 98 TA, it felt like it weighed, AT BEST, 60lbs )

Also, the weight varies from model to model. A Firebird Formula was the lightest available and that was still just over 3400lbs. A GTA being the heaviest was closer to 3600.

A 4th gen WS6 ( again, the TAs weigh more than their Camaro counterparts ) is right around 3500IIRC. A LT1 Z28 is almost dead on 3400.

paul_huryk

If you have seen a 5th gen next to a stock 1st gen, you will see how much larger those cars are - they are at least 6" taller at the roof and maybe even more at the hood and deck. Not sure about the wheelbase or length, but it is a much larger car.

Some of the extra weight is the car, some is from the comfort features, some is from safety, some is from the IRS. 500 to 700lbs more than a 3rd gen...

Pretty interesting how Chevy brought down the weight so much on the COPO cars - good program they are running. Although an LS3 3rd gen with some extra lightweight parts could come in around 3200lbs with driver in street trim (full interior and most comforts), while the COPO is race only.

jaybdaboat

I just looked that up. That's impressive.

Anyone on got videos of our cars taking down these new cars?
Anyone about to make some in the near future ?

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for all the info guys!

Haha I am in the planning stage. I'm going to run a 6.0 LQ9, fast intake, large cam, headers, and good heads. Backed by a T56. Trust me, I will get some good footage when its all said and done.

89-camaro-l98

hmmmm time to gut the camaro lol for real

mpb74

I have a proving 400 horsepower in my third gen. I've done some suspension work to help it get some traction and it will still spin the tires at 10 mph roll. I posted a thread on here where I ran a 5th gen LS3 auto and we ran door to door. (twice)
however, I purchased a 2010 1SS with the 6 speed. it has 3" American thunder series and a k&n cold air intake.
So, having both cars the only logical thing to do was run them, right?
Well we rolled out about 15mph,( i'm in the 5th gen) at the third honk, I double clutched my SS and it jumped out on my 3rd gen by 1.5 cars or so. the 3rd gen could never regain any ground. I built the 3rd gen and I drive it best, so not sure what the results would be if I were driving the 3rd gen.

cuisinartvette

Mustang was impressive bet it was a 408 sure sounded like it
No way a 331s making that kind of power thats street racing though

They race somewhere in AV these days ? might wanna ck it out.

Granny

It doesn't take a lot of power if the car is lite.

Here's my formula for keeping up with modern muscle cars. A lite car, a simple 357sbc, a little spray, add a little chassis work to make it all come together. Here's a pic from a no-prep test session a month or so ago...



At around 3lbs/hp, a 3500lb car would need over 1000hp to the ground to keep up. Keep in mind that a lite car is a lot easier to hook up than the 4000lb car.

The numbers below all reflect the same 3lbs/hp...
2300lbs/767hp
2500lbs/833hp
2800lbs/933hp
3000lbs/1000hp
3300lbs/1100hp
3500lbs/1167hp
3800lbs/1267hp
4000lbs/1334hp

A 220hp 575lb Hayabusa with a 140lb rider even comes up short @ 3.25lbs/hp.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

My 2001 6.0 is in a 80 mustang for the same reason. 6.9s all motor in the 1/8th with a 3.73 gear and tight nitrous converter. Trans brake, ported heads and 4.10s coming soon.

11ellswray

iTrader: (1)

All this talk makes a guy want to buy another thirdgen to build race only.

89rs454

275-325 would keep up with new cars all day long, you wouldn't be king of the road but that's all you need in these light weight bullets.

Kevin Lee 487

Thats not going to get you anywhere near a 5.0, SRT or 5th gen. ~375-400bhp will get where the OP wants. Right around 350whp is when a F-Body will running alongside with stock 5.0s, SRTs and 5th gens. Get 400 wheel, and you'll begin to walk them. New muscle cars are heavy and in the case of the 5.0 and Camaro, only make 420-440hp.

5th gen Camaro SS weighs in at 3800-3900lbs - 426bhp
Mustang is right around 3700 - 412?bhp
Charger/Challenger is a little over 4000 - SRT is 470bhp. R/T is 375bhp
04-06 GTO is over 3700 - 400bhp
Terminator Cobra is over 3900 - ~450bhp
2v 4.6 Mustang GTs are between 3200 and 3400. - 260bhp
3v 4.6 Mustang GTs are the same as F-Bodies IIRC. -315bhp

3rd & 4th gen F-Bodies are 3400-3600. LT1-290bhp. LS1- ~350bhp

Theres also older Cobras and Mach 1 Mustangs too. Original 4.6L Cobras made right around 300bhp IIRC. Mach 1s were rated at 305, but I've heard thats down by a few ponies. General consensus is that they're a hair slower than stock LS1 cars. Personal experience supports this.

89rs454

You have to take into consideration i'm still living in the 90s where the LT1s are king of the road.

pancherj

The problem with the 5th gen camaros is they make huge power effortlessly. My 3rd gen put down 400RWHP with ported heads, big roller cam, headers, etc. My 5th gen with a Paxton, headers, cam, meth and tune put down 850RWHP...stock shortblock and heads. The LS3's are pretty impressive. But, it is a 6 speed manual and can't get out of its own way on the street! My third gen would walk all over it. LOL

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm having trouble swallowing the math on that one.

Let's assume 3400lbs car and a 140lbs girl driving it. It would need around 570whp to trap 127mph. 127 should be about a 10.70 ET on slicks, so the 11.40 makes sense. I guess for street tires.

-- Joe

t-top89

iTrader: (3)

I run 30'' 12.5 ET streets for better traction on the street now. I would destroy the 26'' MT DR's in 1-2 gears. Control arms and removing weight from the front helps the weight transfer tho. This spring I will adjust the VE tables and increase boost another 10psi and then see where Im at. I am guessing im at around 475 RWHP in this vid with torque being even more. but heres a vid of an 1/8 mile test hit.

paul_huryk

There is going to be some confusion with the drag tires to street tires conversion - keep in mind that in my case, the nitrous is off until I hit 2nd gear (about 45mph) and then it just takes off. Now the calculator I use is more conservative on the HP - the 127 is about 550hp in a car of that weight. I have a buddy with a Cartek C5 LS1 that dynoed 535 engine hp and runs 10.8 at 128 on drag radials - it is 100lbs less than my car. He's all launch and gears so I bury him from a roll at any speed - he runs 12.1 on street tires.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

570 whp thru a locked auto will go more like 134 in a 3500 lb raceweight. My car has to be north of 3600 lbs and went 137 on 621 whp but granted thats unlocked th400. More like 700whp thru 700r4
My friends 3400 lb ta went 132 mph on 521 whp t56

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That's interesting. I could never get more than 120mph out of 560 (crank) hp T5..

I'd like to trap 130+ with the new combo, but I'm afraid of breaking the 400 block.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Block should be fine if it sonic checked right and machine work was done right. Trap speeds will vary on location air conditions

3450 lb i went 119 on 400 whp locked 700r4

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It was checked. It's a 2 bolt 400.

I'm at 90ft. 3700lbs with me in it.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah thats heavy. My buddy went 9.8's-10.0's at 136-143i think it was depending on the shot size. Ran that on stock 400 block for few years before cracking lifter valley in 2

Mrbanados

Your tranny didn't break with all that power?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Nope. In hundreds of passes, I've never broke a T5 at the track.

-- Joe