tigwelder128

bad news this a partial cut and paste from todays toronto star The Ontario government is fixing its highly criticized Drive Clean program to give owners of newer cars a break, crack down on fraud and concentrate on older vehicles that are more likely to poison the air.

The changes, most of which take effect Jan. 1, mean that owners of cars, light trucks and SUVs will no longer be required to get $35 Drive Clean exhaust tests when their vehicles reach three years of age, Environment Minister Laurel Broten said yesterday.

The tests every two years will instead begin when a car is five years old, easing concerns that the program started by the previous Progressive Conservative government was a cash grab, since more than 99 per cent of newer cars pass thanks to improved emission controls.

"After five years you start to see an increased failure rate," Broten said, acknowledging "there was always room for improvement" with Drive Clean.

That move alone, which begins with tests next year for 2001 models, means 350,000 fewer vehicles will be checked every year, ministry officials said.

In another change, vehicles 20 years and older — now exempt from testing — will face tests every two years starting in 2007. Officials estimate 10,000 vehicles will be eligible and note that half of 19-year-old vehicles now fail Drive Clean tests.

"These changes make sense," Broten said as she announced details in the auto shop at a downtown high school.

"We're shifting the focus from vehicles that are least likely to pollute to vehicles that are most likely to pollute."

The reforms follow a government review of the program last year, as well as complaints from motorists, auto dealers and the provincial auditor, who found widespread fraud involving fake pass certificates for Drive Clean in his 2004 report.

Under the Environmental Protection Act, it will be an offence to forge, distribute or use a fake passage certificate, with fines up to $50,000 for motorists and up to $250,000 for garages that do Drive Clean tests.

Cruz'N Bruz'R

Thats horse****, they can't a rule, and then say, "oh well, we changed our mind, now we're gonna screw you too"

The only thing thats gonna get them is more people driving without the sticker, i know I may come down to that.
I'm sick of this Can. Gov't.

mikesz1984

News Release
For immediate release
November 18, 2005



CHANGES TO DRIVE CLEAN WILL END UNNECESSARY TESTING AND PROTECT THE AIR WE BREATHE
Program Being Reformed To Save Ontarians Time And Money
TORONTO – The McGuinty government is protecting the environment and saving Ontarians time and money by improving the Drive Clean program with exemptions for newer, cleaner vehicles and a focus on older vehicles most likely to pollute, Environment Minister Laurel Broten announced today.

“Newer vehicles were passing Drive Clean more than 99 per cent of the time,” said Broten. “By focusing testing on vehicles most likely to pollute, we are protecting the air we breathe and improving the program’s efficiency and effectiveness.”

Drive Clean is Ontario's testing and repair program, designed to cut smog-causing emissions from cars, trucks and buses. Currently, the program requires light-duty vehicles that are at least three years old to be tested every two years to renew their licence plates. Light-duty vehicles that are 20 years old or more are exempt from testing. A recent science-based review recommended that the program be improved by exempting newer vehicles and focusing more strongly on older vehicles that are most likely to pollute.

Effective January 1, 2006, the program is being revised to focus on vehicles most likely to pollute by:

Starting emissions tests to renew licence plates when vehicles are five years old, instead of three, because newer vehicles have much better emissions controls and three-year-old cars pass Drive Clean over 99 per cent of the time. Heavy-duty trucks and buses will also require tests beginning when they are five years old, instead of three
Strengthening consumer protection and fraud prevention by making it an offence under the Environmental Protection Act to create, distribute or use false Drive Clean passes and making it easier to decertify emissions inspectors who create, distribute or use false Drive Clean passes
As well, 20-year-old light-duty vehicles, which have a high risk of being serious polluters, will now require testing, with 1988 and newer model year vehicles staying in the program.

Further changes to the Drive Clean program are also proposed:

Requiring annual testing for vehicles 12 years old and older
Increasing the amount vehicles owners must spend on repairs should their vehicle fail its Drive Clean test from $450 to $600
No longer requiring a Drive Clean test for an ownership transfer between family members, or when a vehicle lease is bought out by the lessee
Using the vehicle’s own on-board computers for testing 1998 and newer vehicles
“We are looking forward to what the public has to say about Drive Clean and how it can be improved because we believe that a licence to own a vehicle is not a licence to pollute,” said Broten.

Both Drive Clean’s new and proposed changes have been posted on the Environmental Bill of Rights Registry to provide interested parties with the opportunity to review the changes as a whole and provide comments. The posting can be viewed for 60 days at http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envregistry/026516ep.htm

–30 –

Contacts:
Anne O’Hagan
Minister’s Office
(416) 325-5809 Charles Ross
Communications Branch
(416) 314-6643


this is your chance to complain, and let them know how you feel. they probably wont listen, but they will know that there are alot of people not happy.

85z28guy

Thats bs and I'm definetly NOT e testing my car ever again. I have poured money into it and made it so I seriously doubt it will pass emissions. If anything this is more of a cash grab.

Acceld Z

Lol, nice. They aren't even trying to be cute about it. They're blatantly going after the cars that bring in more drive clean revenue.

LT1FUN

I agree completely.

I should have gone for my emissions test back in late October when it was time to get new stickers for the plate. I never got around to it so I've been driving around with expired stickers.

My car would never pass an emission's test and with the money I'd have to spend to get it to pass, it just wouldn't be worth it.

Honestly though, if you know the right people, you can get your car to pass regardless

The fact that they're now testing 20+ year old cars won't effect me much anyway

85z28guy

Yea it looks like their cracking down on the "helpers" It must have been a miracle that mine passed with no emmissions equipment what so ever

Cruz'N Bruz'R

They still mention 20yrs as a cap. Then mention nothing about a vehicle over 20 yrs old, so say a 21 yr old 1985 car, may still be exempt from testing.

Acceld Z

"This package of new and proposed changes can be summarized as follows:

Focusing on vehicles most likely to pollute:
• Two additional newer model years for light duty and heavy duty vehicles exempted (effective January 1, 2006);
• 20 year old rolling exemption of light duty vehicles eliminated. Testing of model years 1988 and newer (effective January 1, 2006; will be implemented January 1, 2009);
• Annual testing for vehicles 12 years old and older (i.e., starting in 2007, 1995 and older vehicles (back to 1988) would require annual testing)."

Exxccccellent

I'm still in the same predicament with my Camaro though

iroc2nv

well,

I think its time for us as a whole to tell them to go **** themselves.

Seriously, weve sat here and taken it up the azz for gas prices, for lack of jobs, the first wave of emissions..now this..

common...

whats next. having to get a safety every year?
oops i better not write that it may give them a good idea.

horseshiite i say

iroc2nv

I know ill be trailoring my iroc now more then ever

D's89IROCZ

Boy does it ever suck to have an 1989 ROC



If I am reading that right .... there is no 20 year exempt rule now ..... and my 1985 Monte needs to be tested ?

85z28guy

My question is for how long though. Hopefully by the time they push it back, which they probably will again, I can get hot rod status.

HalfInchWrench

Two words. F**k them!!! If I have to I'll regester my cars out of province. Was looking foreward to the 85 hitting the 20 year mark and it did. The 87 was next. I wasn't happy about the first load of tests on my 98 either. It still only has 17K on it. Never had a problem passing emissions in any car but it is very inconvenent. Not to mention the emissions I end up producing just to heat the freakin' car up.

Those ****tards want to clean up the air then go after heavy industry. Not likely cause thats what runs the gov. anyway. Lobbying and special interest groups run them and pay for their election campains. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Once again F**k em'!

Acceld Z

Guys, the 20 year curtain no longer applies.....but, you're exempted if your car is an '87 and older. The 20 year curtain ends with the 1988 model year now.

From what I understand, you still may have to go through another test even if you own an '86 or '87. I was told that when I registered my Buick and I believe Cruz'N Bruz'R was told the same thing when he bought his stickers this spring. That isn't a new thing though. I've heard it referred to as "the exit test".

HalfInchWrench

From what I understood, this is purposed legistation. It hasn't passed yet. I'm just po'd that some clown even brought it up. Who ever the bone head is needs to looooze his seat. We need names and posistons and email addy's. I feel a half dozen letters coming on from me alone. I'd do the research myself but am kind of busy right now repairing 3rd gen floors. Get me some contact info and I will write a firm but polite letter or a dozen. We should flood them with emails. Not just saying "you suck" but the reason why.

85z28guy

Yes this is true. My unle had a camaro project that he completed just as his 20 years came up. He thought awesome, but when he went to get his sticker, he had to e test anyways. The only option is too not transfer the title until the 20 years has fully passed, which obviously you cannot do. But for now, warm e test are plentiful

player 88

iTrader: (2)

In a nutshell:
It appears that any thing OLDER then 1988 i.e 1987 and earlier- are EXEMPT. NO test!!!!
If it is 1988 and NEWER then it must be tested every 2 years.

The "rolling" 20 year exemption is gone, it is now fixed at 1988 vehicles.
they would have been due their last tst in 2007. See the Drive clean web site for more info and testinf years, evens in ODD years and ODD in even. Years- only a governmet can F(&& this up this badly.

these will take effect 1 JAN 06.

Addtioanlly, Proposed legislation- NOT passed yet.-
Cars that are 1988 and newer AND 12 years and older, to test these cars EVERY year. More $$ and to force us to buy newer casrs.

Bleeding hart LIbEral government!!

6speedIROC

iTrader: (3)

Guess this means start collecting older VIN's tags..and putting them on the newer cars. I almost did that a few years back.

I'm also a little afraid of the exit test, I got my last test last year on my 86 a week after my birthday just in case. (test is valid for 1 year) If they say I need it for the 21st year its already done.

Hylton

Ya but Neil, you're laughing!

FrankenCamaro

Well yet another reason to love my 86. I just went through my exit test during the summer and even with a brand new engine and hot rod standards the guy at the garage had to detune the crap out of it just to get it to pass. I think a satisfactory idea would be to label cars as daily driver or recreational. Have a cap on KMs of say 5 to 8 thousand per year and if you are within that no e-tests. the only thing you would have to look for is the diconnection of the speedo cable. I mean come on, if this is the best the government can do to curb emissions will all be sucking on tailpipes to get clean air.

player 88

iTrader: (2)

Frankencamaro good post. FYI for all- You can get Historic plates which are for "limited use". Not sure what year the car has to be. The Historics are exempt from the Drive Celan program. This will apply more inteh future.

6speedIROC

iTrader: (3)

Ya Hylton, but I feel for the guys with newer rides!

I think the historic plates are 30+ yrs old....
I also looked in to the kitcar status which I believe is exempt as well...

johnyIROC

This is terrible... I wonder how long until they ban internal combustion all together and force us to drive smart cars.

If I am reading everything right... as of January 1, 2006 an '87 is exempt and shouldn't require an exit test as it is not covered by the 'new' program... that would be great for me personally... but I'm sure there is still some kind of an exit test.

If they do pass the mandatory testing for all vehicles 12 yrs and older every 2 years that is really going to be a problem.

player 88

iTrader: (2)

the car still has to be a 1988 or newer model AND be 12 years or older- all that would do is make them test EVERY year vs. every 2 years.
1987 willhave to be done in 2006( last year it looks like) and 1988 in 2007- last year.

Hylton

Are you saying that 88 will be the last year to be exempted?

91wtROH17's

I need some 85-86 tags, anyone have an 85-86 they want to get rid of. This is bull****, an E-test every year, **** that! I just won't buy a sticker, simple as that. Let see one of those **** box cop cruisers catch a procharged Z.......hahahahaha

Zedsled

please have somebody by with a videocamera when this happens..you'll make millions selling the video on the internet.

I like how they just go for the southern/more populated parts of ontario..yet the rest of the province doesnt have to worry about the emissions test at all.

darakus

iTrader: (4)

I just bought a Holley Stealth Ram, and it doesnt have a egr valve. I have new headers with no air, and just wondering if a three way converter would take care of the emissions problem.

Or are they just going to look at my engine and say ................no your f#$$ed!! No egr valve No air on headers .

Let me know what you guys think

Cruz'N Bruz'R

There's no more visual inspections, other than checking for a cat.

I've got a double pumper, big cam, no egr or pcv, but i do have cats, and it should pass if it has too, if i detune it for the test.

darakus

iTrader: (4)

Yea I just finished reading www.driveclean.com

Answered all the questions I was asking and more. Almost had a tear in my eye when I read 88 is not exempt from emission testing. If only I had a 87 or older.

Eric2ndGen

This is not a piece of legislation- it is a policy/procedure document- meaning there's no voting on it or having it defeated- the Legislation is the original change the Conservatives made when they started the program in 1999. These are just alterations to the details of the specific program.

You can still send feedback to the bureaucrats about this. While they may not care- giving them too easy a ride of it might encourage them to get even more silly when they feel like changing something in the future.

The really stupid part to this whole thing, and the report which was used to rationalize it ("scientifically based" whatever the hell that means) is that while they're trying to blame 20+ year old vehicles for pollution- how many 20+ year old vehicles are still on the road? Virtually all are owned by hobbyists and senior citizens who bought them new and will die with them sitting in their garage. If you read the report- it doesn't actually provide any evidence that 20+ year old vehicles are a problem, or that there is any significant number of them on the road- just that they "must" be more of a problem than newer vehicles because they're not being tested.

Basically- this whole thing is kiss-*** to conservation/green politics. Their own report notes that DriveClean, across the Province has eliminated about 40,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions since 1999 when it was started to the end of 2004 (5 years). Sounds nice until you look at the Federal Government and their "One Tonne" challenge where they believe everyone in the country can reduce their share of Greenhouse gas emissions by 1 tonne. Still not getting this? There are 13 million registered vehicles on Ontario roads- in 5 years 13 million vehicles under Driveclean reduced pollution by .00377 tonnes each (about 1/3 of one percent of one tonne, actually 1/325th of a tonne to be exact)- or 1/1625th of one tonne per year, or 1.38 pounds.

Sooo- if the Feds think everyone can save a full tonne (2240 pounds) but your average vehicle only saves 1.38 pounds a year (you still need to find 2238.62 pounds to eliminate for every man, woman and child)- where's the pollution really coming from? Apparently not from excessively polluting cars (maybe from cars in part- but only eliminating them outright will solve this)- and certainly not from the few 20+ year old cars left on the road. Also notice all these changes are to "Light Duty" vehicles- i.e. not heavy trucks- which if not tuned properly can spew 1000 times what an average car can spew into the environment.

This whole program has been a farce- and for about 2 minutes back in March of 2004 (see here: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ght=etest+gone )

it looked like the new Premier of Ontario didn't have his head up his own ***- but apparently this was just lofty dreaming on the driving public's part.

Eric2ndGen

Oh- and other than screaming at your local MPP and the Premier's office- the only place change might be initiated is through here:

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envregistry/026516ep.htm


Be prepare to mail or fax your issue- emails not accepted (guess that cuts down on the number of people they might be forced to address, huh?).

6speedIROC

iTrader: (3)

This explains the rationale behind the changes..

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/en.../PA05E0019.pdf

..but don't think I agree with them.

1997 and newer cars with OBDII will not even go on the dyno, just get plugged in to check for codes.

I'm pissed with the testing every year...just more hassle.

My 94 Sonoma failed badly one year, twice, finally just got it pass. Next test 2 years later with no changes (only plugs that were replaced for the first failed test) it barely registered any pollutants. WTF?

Hylton

I am getting so P'd off with all levels of government getting into our daily lives. LEAVE US THE HELL ALONE!

Hylton

At least my '89 will be exempt in the year 2019 if I put a Historic plate on it.

85z28guy

The truth about it is its just a mone grab, plain and simple. There are a lot bigger factors in pollution then the cars putting out higher emmissions. Maybe they should have start to be more strict towards factories, but it will never happen. Basically, its just a bunch of over paid needle dicks trying to justify why they are paid 6 figures a year. Its like no matter what we do, they wanna get rid of the hobby of hot rods. We get all these stupid regulations, harassed by the pigs, and discriminated by our insurance companies. Maybe I'd be better of finding a new hobby that will give me less greive, maybe a drug dealer

2 dope

umm, they think its vehicles that are causing all the smog in southern ontario? Doesn't take a genius to see that southern ontario is full of smoke stack spewing out nasty smoke every single day, no wait, maybe it does take a genius and there certainly aren't any in office.

Its rather redundant to stick vehicles with this testing coz its not really benefitting us, I still saw many ozone alert days here in windsor this past summer. I am all for a cleaner environment but forcing people to basicaly buy newer cars is moraly wrong. Thats what its going to come down to. The person who can't spend the money to get their car to pass will be forced to go without a car. I suggest everyone write their MPP, write to someone and let them know that we wont take it, not if they aren't going to go after the big business as well.

D's89IROCZ

Alot is blowing up from the states aswell ....due to way the wind blows around here ....like a nasty spiral

They WILL NEVER go after the big corps . Period . If they do ...they relocate to contry's like China , Mexico or whatever. Countries bend over backwards t okeep big companies here. At our expence ...litterally.

Eric2ndGen

Just so no one goes off with totally the wrong idea: Cars are a HUGE source of environmental pollution. BUT- the MOE's own study proved that DriveClean eliminates almost nothing in the big picture. It's not a small percentage of heavier polluting vehicles (whether this be by poor maintenance or age) that are a/the "problem"- it's all 13 million of them on Ontario's roads that are a problem. So what's the solution? Ban automobiles period- but no one would ever go for that.

However- as is always the case- politicians and bureaucrats will always go for the easiest grab that will gain them the most recognition- so they come up with and "improve" stupid programs like DriveClean to keep a few, but vocal, people happy and collect a nice tidy profit from the activity.

We can all see the "big" pollution sources are industrial (and this includes the government itself with its coal-burning power plants)- but the government hates to pee off its contributors and it can never make a "profit" to enforce any laws they place on cleaning up these things unless they impose HUGE penalties if someone is in violation- but at a good expense to themself in court time. What do you think if the government told a larger company with one of those gigantic smokestacks that they have to keep their emissions at "x" and the government will test these emissions every year and charge them a "fee" for doing it? These companies would pick-up and move somewhere else- the only reason the government has gotten away with this at different times in the past (i.e. Sudbury- Inco and Falconbridge 25 years ago) was because they were mining companies and they absolutely had to stay where they were to get the product out of the ground. Consumers rarely, if ever, can or have the option to do this.

George

If anyone at the prime minister's office reads what you just said about the government you will be in deep schit with the RCMP..lol

F-BIRD'88

A voulentary smog test on 20+ model year old vehicles that allowed you the owner to test emmisions as needed and do the repairs in the interest of lower emmisions as well as fuel efficientcy would go a lot further to reducing total emisions of this small group of the total vehicle population.

These older vehicles even if a larger percentage of them would fail a emmisions test are such a small insignificant part of the total emmisions picture that even with 100% emmisions compliance the total pic would be unchanged.

The test should also include Airfuel ratio and engine misfire detection count and catylitic converter temp as a volentary tuning repair aid. This is done in New Zelland. In new Zelland it is all done on road side tests and the results are supplyed to the owner so he can get his car in tune on a volentary basis. It has been very effective and well recieved with a $$$ budget much less than a government run manditory system.

Trouble is the majority of voters drive newer cars and don't care a rats *** about old cars, performance or the real facts on pollution.
A government's first priority is to get re-elected.

Road side testing is the answer. Manditory yearly or bi yearly testing is just bull.

HalfInchWrench

When they broke the story on global news they must of made up some of it, I saw it with my own eyes. They stated the McSquinty gov. was gonna pass the bill.

Sounded ok to me.....

What a f'n train wreck of a thread!

HalfInchWrench

Lawn mowers and Snow Blowers polute much more than your most polluting of vehicles. Two stroke engines polute bad, like about 800mi of driving for the same time as it would take average lawn mower to spew out in 15 minutes. Strange but true.

roughskinjrz

so if your car is an 87 or older you dont have to have an emissions test done? i just moved to toronto from new brunswick and we have nothing like this. has anyone gone to take a test lately since they changed this? i just put a new motor in the car and i want to take it for a drive, my car is insured, and registered from newbrunswick but the inspection ran out a couple months ago, so i have to do it here.

i want to know if they will just give me the sticker and not go through a test because all the smog stuff is out of the car, and exhaust with no converter.

85z28guy

Right now you need an etest. I beleive the article says 1987 because it will come into effect NEXT year, meaning the 20 year cut off is a 1987 car. You can get a certification ie safety no problem. You probably will not pass the etest with no cat. But until thiey crack down, you can buy yourself an etest right now pretty easily. I would try that since this is your last year anyways. Another thing you could do is just wait to transfer it all over until jan 1st, and then I don't think you need to get one at all, period. Just got to the Motor vehicles office, and ask em.

roughskinjrz

well i dont plan on getting a sticker until jan 1st which would make my vehicle 20 years, its less then a month. i was just wondering if my vehicle would not need any kind of test, just get a sticker.

ill give them a call

George

I let the sticker expire on mine when it was 19 years old because it wouldn't have passed and I didn't feel like paying the second conditional which was $450 I think.

I didn't have to get it tested to renew the sticker after it was 20 years old.

Call them anyway.

Hylton

Isn't the fine for driving without a valid sticker less than the new $650.00 conditional anyways?

George

I don't know but I got away with it so it's all good..lol

85z28guy

The fine is $90. I know a lot of people that drove like that for months I guess al ot of the time, cops don;t wanna bother doing all that paper work.