online170

Just wanted to get some input about cats in ontario. Ive heard horror stories, but ive ONLY ever owned muslce/classic cars (im only 20yrs old), and ive never gotten in trouble for not having cats. Ive had an 85 camaro, a 71 buick, and a 78 camaro (all without cats).

No thirdgen ive ever seen in Ontario has had a catalytic converter in it, my firebird was the first one. I took it out and replaced it with a cutout.

My car is not obnoxiously loud or anything, it sounds about the same as a truck with a dual exhaust. Definately louder than most cars at a stop light, but once you get moving you cant notice. Im just debating if i want to go through the trouble of putting a hollowed out cat in there. I drive by police head quarters every morning (in the summer) to get to work (RCMP, and City), and only been pulled over for front tags so far.

The only reason im considering it, is because at certain angles, its VERY obvious i have a big black object under my car. Ive now painted my exhaust pipe black but its still visible. Unlike my other cars and my bros 83 camaro. The rest of the car's appearance doesnt help, like the faded scratched paint, and the hole in the hood, but i will be fixing that this spring.

I know its against the rules to not have a cat on there, but im not looking for a lecture, i just want to know if youve been pulled over and ticketed for not having one?

__________________
A. K.
Ottawa Ontario

Cruz'N Bruz'R

I have always kept a CAT or at least an empty shell of a CAT on the car. I won't have any this season beacuase of ground clearance issues. I hear it around $1000 fine for removing a piece of emmission equipment. But I also no longer have EGR or an smog pump either. It's kind of a risk you take I guess. Generally I don't think the police would nit pick over your car like that unless
1) they're doing a blitz specifically for that in which we would most likely be targeted being modified vehicles, or
2) you did something really wrong(excessive speeding, dangerous driving, etc.) and they decided to really rake you over the coals.

Fyrstorm

From what I am reading,

Inspection Rules

It looks like you can do whatever you want if the vehicle is 20 years or older, because they are no longer looking for those parts. On the safe side though, I've asked that site for my own interests for my own car. I'm not planning on taking the cat off, but it'd be nice to know what can and can't be removed - if anything.

That site didn't have anything on keeping emissions parts ON after the 20 years - it did before. But it's never safe to assume something hehe, especially in Canada. I'm sure they will change the rules in the future - because that's what Canadian Gov't does

(For example, not carrying Howard Stern on Sirius for Canadians forcing me to get an American feed. 3 months later, they allow it.)

Fyrstorm

Oddly enough, i got a response pretty quick.

But it doesn't say anywhere about older than 20 year vehicles. So just in case, here's the Regulation they point to:

EPAR 361/98

online170

Thats the same one i was looking at. If you scroll down, theres a little blip about "hotrods, rebuilt cars, and kit cars".

Heres the one that got my attention.

(3) If a motor or motor vehicle is manufactured with a catalytic converter, no person shall alter or cause or permit the alteration of the motor or motor vehicle in a manner that permits exhaust emissions to bypass the catalytic converter. O. Reg. 86/99, s. 4.

Basically, if the car came with cats, its gotta stay with cats. SO i dont know. I was ok all last season, but when i get pulled over, i wanna have that confident edge where i KNOW my car is legal and the cop is just being picky, rather than the nervous look hoping he doesnt catch the missing cats.

Problem is, i will have to get 3" cats that are fairly small, because my y-pipe is huge. I guess im gonna start looking for some.

I've heard the cop has a right to conduct a "visual" inspection of the cats, but ive never confirmed that, and ive only heard stories from people who talk alot. Not sure who to beleive.

Fyrstorm

Yeah i'm not sure if police do the inspection or the environmental wagon I've seen around. Just a van with the Drive Clean on it, parked near/on on ramps onto the 400 series highways. Haven't seen it too much though. Either way, I just don't want the hassle hehe!

Also got a response from asking if 20+ year cars were also included in their answer and the answer was "Yes".

SteelTownMadDog

Anything that was available on the car when it left the factory must be on it whether it's 20 y/o or 30 y/o. By the way, the fines approx. $300+ for EACH missing piece. So if you're missing the cats, EGR, charcoal can, then your fine will be in the $900s.

online170

yea but i bet theres very few cops that know what to look for for EGR, in that many makes of vehicle.

I have my charcoal can, theres no EGR, but the engine is a 69, so i can just say that engine never had it, not that a cop would know what hes looking for anyway. The only thing "missing" is the cats. and probably a smog pump, since my car is an 87.... But thats underhood, my car isnt smelly or loud enough to open the hood. Im just worried about someone peeking from down below.

player 88

the cats that are available today flow MUCH better than the old catylist beds of the 80's. you can get a 2-3 inch cat installed for under $200 and be legal.

Steve

Fyrstorm

Thats the route I'm going hopefully.

SteelTownMadDog

It's not just the cops you have to worry about. The "smog police" know exactly what they're looking for. I don't know about your area, but around here in the Niagara Region, ALOT of people get pulled over for inspections. they even use infrared temp guns to see if your cat is not hollowed out (would show a lower temperature than a functional cat). I haven't been pulled over (knock on wood), but I know people that have.

online170

Thats a little excessive. Ive never even heard of the smog police. What do they look like?

I can understand in a place like niagra where smog warnings are becoming very common, but i dont think they do that in ottawa. Theres plenty of ways around the smog thing, if they decide to stick me for missing emissions stuff.

I am exempt from emissions, so it could be blamed on outdated equipment, or even ignorance.... "i bought the car like that".....

Im very opinionated when the environmentalists start cracking down on cars, and public motorists for that matter. I can understand if you create smoke clouds everywhere you go, but honestly, these cars ran around like this for a long time, and the world started getting a lil hotter in the last decade so everyone starts looking for a finger to point.

Most classics produce less emissions on a yearly basis than any car being used daily mostly because they arent driven very often.

The latest thing to tick me off is the 10% ethanol theyve added to gasoline. Aparently its gonna grow some bunnies and green if we use this stuff, but if you start reading up on the adverse effects and the lack of power on an engine (any engine, not just classics), you see its not as heavenly as they want you to think. A buddy of mine wrote a pretty angry letter to the ministry basically telling them, are YOU gonna cover the costs when my engine blows up????

And their response was, there are a "few" pumps that still sell ethanol free gas, and its OUR responsibility to know what we put in our vehicles. So they basically wont be happy until motor vehicles, and probably combustion doesnt exist anymore.....


But im just preaching to the choir right? Anyways......

Any emissions stuff under my hood is still attached, , and i can cover the pipe that i will place the hollow cat over, with some left over exhaust wrap i have. That should get it pretty hot.

The Project

As Steve stated you can get aftermarket cats that flow very well for a good price.

The police and ministry are really starting to crack down on emissions and missing equipment (the ministry is teaching the police what to look for). The police can impuond your car on the spot and then take it for a test or have you wait until the ministry come by.

You are not losing very much HP by having all the equipment on there.

KYLE87

Im kinda in the same spot as you. cant decide if I should atleast put a hollow one on it or just let it be.

Fyrstorm

why even take the risk? for the fine for a missing/malfunctioning cat you can buy the high flow cat almost twice.

Law 101 - Ignorance is no excuse for the law. I know what you are saying, but laws are laws. I thought about all the things you guys are talking about, but why bother? Like others have said - you don't loose THAT much HP. If you want a go car with no restrictions we should be on a track/strip somewhere and not on the roads that Granma drives on.

I had an offroad vehicle, but I followed the rules except for one thing. My tires weren't completely covered by the wheel fenders. And I was never bothered by anyone for it. I bet I could have been though.

So if you are worried about it, then you shouldn't do it - cause you won't enjoy your ride while out and about like you should be. Always looking over your shoulder. If you don't care, you wouldn't be here asking that question hehe!

I'm worried about it, so I'm not dodging it and doing my best to comply.

__________________

-----------------------86 Trans Am-----------------------
Installed:Fast Burn 385, Edge Torque Converter, Hedman 68479 Headers, MagnaFlow 93441 Cat & MagnaFlow 15684 3" Cat Back, Suspension (KYB GR-2 shocks/struts, Wonderbar, Front Sway Bar, Complete Moog bushings/links/joints replacement, Spohn Rear Lower Control Arms (box), Spohn 1 5/16" Front Sway Bar)

online170

Yea thats exactly it. However im trying to do some research on it before i spend the $$$ to buy a cat.

I was reading up on it today, and it seems that the smog police has been around since 1998. They say they can pull over anyone in ontario, at anytime to do an inspection, however, ive never seen or even heard of them till just now around ottawa. I also did some reading up on the ministry's site, and some news articles, and it seems they only pull you over if you have a really bad smell comin out of the tail pipe, or you are a visually evident polluter. They later confirm with a road side inspection to issue the ticket.

In any case, i was trying to see how they would treat a emissions exempt vehicle, and i couldnt find anything. Only how they determined 1987 was the last year for the 20 year old exemption.

I actually didnt want to get rid of my factory cat, but i had to have that cutout. And theres limited space. So ill see what i can do about getting another one on there.

Im not promoting breaking the law here, so please dont take it that way, and i wont stand up for myself if im breaking the rules. Unfortunately, its not always about whats right or wrong, its usually about money. And i dont think its right that the political front wont rest until classic cars are extinct. Just my opinion, doesnt have to be yours.

fastcars

I seen this post and thought I must reply as I'm a victim of the so called "smog police".
Here in Cambridge, Ontario a few times through out the summer the police along with help from the MTO conduct roadside inspections. They target an area car show and just wait for you to leave, pull you over, escort you to a parking lot. MTO officers inspect your vehicle and you leave with a $410 fine for removing an emission component the vehicle was originally equiped with. In my case it was a $3 PCV valve. I was driving my '81 GMC pick-up with a dressed up small block and I had those small vent filters in the valve covers. They were fair at the time, it probably could have been worst. I watched some people leave without their rides in the hour we were there. The officer explained to me that removing, altering, or modifying any emission component was illegal. They also inspected my steering and suspension, but the truck was real clean and they were more concerned with the emission components.
So I've learned that I have to make all the emission components appear as they are all in place and working.
It's a gamble, you decide what you want to do.

Fastcars

online170

More info please. How did they inspect you? Was it all visual, or did they run tests on your car too? Did you try to tell them ur exempt for e-test or anything like that?

What else did they tell you was wrong with the car? I dont know what im gonna do about EGR, but im working on getting a cat. Found a 3" high flow for $50.

online170

Boy the good news just keeps comin doesnt it??? Im gettin rid of my third gen, this is f**ing ridiculous.

I found an article, where they give you an idea of what the smog police are looking for. Here is just a short list;

Looking under the hood of your vehicle, the officers check that your vehicle has the emissions control system it was originally equipped with–or replaced with approved after-market parts–and that all of the components are in place and connected. Generally, Smog Patrol officers look at the following components: catalytic converters, evaporative emission system (fuel tank cap and vapour canister), fuel inlet restrictor, positive crankcase ventilation system, thermostatic air intake system, air injection reaction system, exhaust gas recirculation system, oxygen sensor and computer control system.

http://www6.autonet.ca/Maintenance/S...24/511306.html

Basically it has to have what the vehicle was originally equipped with. THE VEHICLE, NOT THE ENGINE.

So, i got all my fuel evaporative, and catalytic converter stuff goin on, maybe i can remove my open breathers and replace them with PCV valves, but theres much much more im missing. EGR, and all the computer controlled stuff they are talking about. Im never gonna be able to get it back on there. SO, i was thinking, maybe i should get it branded as a HOTROD. However, this person's lil blurb shows thats not gonna be possible either, because they are extremely picky.

Question about the Hot Rod clause in the Act. I swapped a 1991 MPI block into my 1990 TBI YJ. Something was different between the two engines to the point that it now idles high. I bolted on the TBI manifold and swapped over the engine components like the flywheel, distributor and harmonic balancer. The 91 MPI engine has physical differences and is identified as such by Chrysler by having a separate identifier in the VIN. Therefore it comes under the "engine that was not available as an option in the model year of the vehicle clause. I documented this extensively with block codes then took it into the dealership to try to get it passed as a Hot Rod. Initially they said they'd test it as a Hot Rod but when I got there I got to speak to the Drive Clean manager. He explained that the vehicle can't be tested as a Hot Rod because the engine swap occurred after 1999. I would have to extensively prove that the swap occurred before 1999 to get the test. He wished me luck on that. By luck, they tested the vehicle while I was jabbering and it passed...man was I surprised. Going home I reread the Act and it seemed to be true what the tech said, that Hot Rod only applies to swaps done prior to 1999, not prior 1999 model year vehicles that have had engines swapped on them. It's subtle wording but makes a big difference.:

"A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3."

Or is it? Does "designed to meet" imply "must be tested as" or does it mean "should be same standard as the original but tested as a 1980". Can anyone confirm that that is the way the regs are

http://jeepkings.ca/forums/showthrea...t=41131&page=3

Anybody know what the 1987 firebird formulas came with as for engines???

Fyrstorm

I agree with you there, not saying you are wrong - just trying to help decide what you'd want to do. Classic enthusiasts are getting a bit of a rough ride, but I don't think they are THAT functional to be everywhere, anywhere.

Be aware though, that if you have smoke out the pipes (blue/white/black whatever) people can rat on you. There's a phone number to call if you see it.

That's what I said


That is just plain crappy It's too bad it has to come to this, it's really ruining the fun. Keep in mind though that even the police have cars like ours or hot rods or the like, so not all are out to get you and are also on our side. Theres a speed shop near me that, I've been told, has about 4 or 5 cops with the same troubles as we have.

Bad thing on my new motor is there is no EGR, so that's a problem. But hopefully I'll never run into these checks, I've yet to see one since that one I saw near the MTO off ramp on the 401 over 10 years ago.

online170

Exactly, and i appreciate the help. Nice to know certain cops face the same issue....

BUT, i will die arguing that my vehicle is incredibly reliable, i can drive with it anywhere at anytime, and not have to think twice about it. On top of that, it makes a nice noise, gets peoples attention (probably not for looks right now, but that will change), and goes like hell if i want it to.

Its just getting frustrating now, that i HAVE agreed to comply. But the rules are so rough, where does it stop???

They have basically made it impossible to modify a car, and given us the "guilty till proven innocent" verdict.

But anyways, lets move forward. Im a little worried, because im almost 100% sure the 1987 firebirds came with a 305 only, fuel injected, or TBI at best. Fast forward 20 some odd years, and mine somehow ended up with a 1975 block/ 1969 headed 355 with little emission provisions in mind.... So im ACTUALLY considering getting rid of the car for an older one. In the mean time all i can do is, hook up my existing emissions stuff, put a cat on there, and take the risk....

KYLE87

Personally i would be more scared about the cat than the engine. Yours is way more visible it isnt there than mine is. As for the engine. You say you are exempt from testing then there is no reason they should peak under your hood unless there is reason ( they see the cat, Smell). If you are that worried about the engine being seen make it appear to be a 305 carbed car and add the things the 305's came with. My 87 Camaro came with a carbed 305 from the factory and if the block happened to be a 350 it would be difficult to tell without actually having proof thats what it is or finding the casting nos. and pretty invisible to what it is from the top.


I personally am debating having my cat put back on so I can try and pass inspection so I dont haft to find another way. My only other worry Is ive gotten headers since last having it inspected and I have air tubes and functioning, but I run an open element which is fine i can switch the stock for testing, but I no longer have the therm. heat hose connection and I dunno if they will call me out on that or not.

fastcars

All they did was a visual inspection of the truck. They did not have any diagnostic equipement, just jacks and stands. As I said it could have been worst, they made a comment about the fact I did not have an EGR valve. But the truck was totally modified and my manifold had no provision for it. Apparently some trucks may not have been equipped with an EGR back then depending on the model and it would be too hard to prove. So they diddn't push it.
I did watch them give this kid their at the same time what looked to me like the entire ticket book. He was driving an import and was yelling at the MTO officer. Long story short, I think he left crying without his ride. It may depend on how you handle the whole situation as well.

But not all is bad, my current car is a '92 RS with a 454 big block. It is fuel injected and I passed the emission test back in 2003 as a "hot rod".From what I understood that meant it was tested at 1980 standards. At that time the car would run high 12's in the quarter. Since then I've rebuilt the motor with I hope twice as much horsepower and sort of, kind of, had to re-register the vehicle as an older model if you know what I mean to get exempt from the E-test. I upgraded the fuel injection and kept all the emission equipement "visually" in place and connected.
If their as smart as they were last time I'll walk right through that inspection.
I'm more afraid of this years predicted gas prices than the emission police.

Good luck!
Fastcars