TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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right now im building an all new 350, as of now im putting in a GM forged crank, PM rods, forged ppistons, hydraulic roller cam and lifters, AFR 90cc heads with heat riser, and a big mouth TPI base, big runners, and ported or ligenfilter plenum, with stock fuel rails and a little bigger injectors than stock, im not sure about that because i havent gotten that far yet.
my question is does anyone know of a good turbo setup for an engine like this or if it would be a good idea to put a turbo on this engine? i was originally going to go with a vortech supercharger but after looking at turbos and comparing, i think i would rather go turbo. any input on my engine combination or turbo setup would be appreciated. thanks
Russ
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__________________ 1987 white on blue trans-am, 305 TPI mostly stock, accel HO coil, BoschHeavy duty cap and rotor, Borg Warner wires, high flow stock fit muffler, Homemade fan switches, 180 degree stat. currently building a 350 FI engine from a new GM block, hopefully to be finished by next summer.
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__________________ Ian Moore
1985 Camaro Sport Coupe - TPI
Five Liter TBI Eater -=ICON MOTORSPORTS=- - Motorsports for ignorant people. Need a Custom PROM?
we'll see who laughs when a 20 year old college kid has a car that can smoke something you put your whole lives into. i just asked a question, no need to be a wise-a$$
Originally posted by 87TA 305TPI we'll see who laughs when a 20 year old college kid has a car that can smoke something you put your whole lives into. i just asked a question, no need to be a wise-a$$
Whos being the wise-a$$ now???? I'd like to see this... If it wan't that big of a deal to do, there would be more than just a handfull in the WHOLE WORLD that have done this. The reason its such a pipe dream, is because people who do this kind of stuff have unlimited resources and money to burn. I work at a dealer and I know it can devistate a "20 year old college student" to tell them they need new tires, let alone a totally custom twin turbo setup Give me a break...
__________________ When I die, I want to go peacfully and in my sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.
Originally posted by 87TA 305TPI we'll see who laughs when a 20 year old college kid has a car that can smoke something you put your whole lives into. i just asked a question, no need to be a wise-a$$
Not even built yet, and he's already talking trash...sounds like a r1ce boyz.
Sounds just like the Civic guys after a good thrashing at the strip..."wait till I get my turbo/NOS/whatever I'll smoke you!!" And then it never happens, next time it's the same "I'll be fast some day" trash talk. And the time after that...and after that...and after that...
You guys are incredible, all the kid asked for was the probability of a turbo setup for our cars. He asked nicely, and he asked out of curiousity. Yea, he should've posted this on the "power adders" section of the board, but considering that he was building his 350 with a TPI in mind, he probably thought that this MIGHT have been a good place to ask.
Besides, so what if he isn't "built" yet? At least he's thinking of building his engine with the means of supporting some sort of forced induction. He isn't coming on here saying, "I want to add a turbo, and 'NAWSSS' to my stock 305 so that I can smoke all of you". Yea, it'll cost him bucks, and even more green for a turbo setup, but he was merely ASKING if there was a turbo setup.
There are users here that maybe should do a search before asking, and maybe should re-think which board to post their messages on. BUT, there are also users who shouldn't post anything if they don't have anything good to add.
Have you guys forgotten when you were still learning about cars, and what worked, and what didn't?
I've been cruising thirdgen.org before the message boards were even this organized/"advanced". Back when it was a COMPLETELY OPEN forum.. when most of the members were nice.
I remember asking back then about the possibility of a T56 in my car (this was at least 4+ years ago), and instead of getting a "DREAM ON, KIDDO" response, I got a nice, thorough response as to why a T56 wouldn't be so feasible (back then).
He's a fellow 3rd genner.. why not help him? Instead of this "he's not even built, yet".
Yeah, it can be done. There is a guy named Derek who hails from Central Pennslyvania in the Huntingdon area. He races at Beaver Springs Dragway. He put a 5.7 LT1 with a turbo in a Buick Regal Grand National body. Its fairly quick too. He runs a few different turbo cars, and does all of his own work. Maybe some other readers here can tell us more about the car??
Dont get discouraged because someone bashes your idea. Do some research, save your cash, and go for it. The rest of you guys.... hey, give the kid a break.
thanks for the support guys, i did go through all of the boards for turbo info but there are so many posts that i could not read them all, i know that if i go through with it the project is going to be expensive but im in no hurry to finish, as far as im concerned it could take a year or 2 before im done. as for the turbo im not even done with the engine yet, i just started, before i can put any kind of power adder on ill have to finish the engine itself and hope that it runs. but im sure this website will still be around in a few years from now and when i really get the project going or finish it ill let everyone know so if those guys who were talkin trash still want a shot they can have it. maybe ill win maybe i wont but unlike some people im in it for the fun of it. thanks again guys, take care
formula 8: what kind of headers did you use to hook those turbos up? custom or aftermarket ones flipped? and do you have a closer pic of the engine compartment? id like to see how you got all of that to fit. and why is it running 13.56? i might be wrong but isnt that only about a second off of stock? running low psi because of a stock engine or just having problems hooking the rubber? thanks for the pic though, at least now i know it has been done.
because i have a job and goto school, and i have many other things that i do every day which prevent me from reading hundreds if not thousands of posts about turbos, and there are lots of other things on the website that i like to read about, and since the turbo wouldent be untill the engine itself is done id rather spend more time reading about other engine components. sorry if i was wrong to post something on here, i thought that was what it was for.
Originally posted by 87TA 305TPI formula 8: what kind of headers did you use to hook those turbos up? custom or aftermarket ones flipped? and do you have a closer pic of the engine compartment? id like to see how you got all of that to fit. and why is it running 13.56? i might be wrong but isnt that only about a second off of stock? running low psi because of a stock engine or just having problems hooking the rubber? thanks for the pic though, at least now i know it has been done.
I WISH that was my car!! It belongs to GM as one of their project cars. It features the twin turbos, Corvette rear suspension, and ZF 6spd from the Vette.
because i have a job and goto school, and i have many other things that i do every day which prevent me from reading hundreds if not thousands of posts about turbos, and there are lots of other things on the website that i like to read about, and since the turbo wouldent be untill the engine itself is done id rather spend more time reading about other engine components. sorry if i was wrong to post something on here, i thought that was what it was for.
Well the rest of us have Jobs, and some of us even go to school, too.
Wich means why should we waste time answering a question that has been asked thousands and thousands of times already, and the answer is readily avaliable ?
Your Lazyness is not an excuse... You don't want to take the time to read the results of your search, thats fine.
But Don't expect us to take the time to spell it out for you.
__________________ Ian Moore
1985 Camaro Sport Coupe - TPI
Five Liter TBI Eater -=ICON MOTORSPORTS=- - Motorsports for ignorant people. Need a Custom PROM?
Age, the reason the kid caught flak is because he immediately spouted off about how fast his entirely theoretical engine is going to be just because he got told to check the right forum, and got a playful poke from bort. If you're been around for a while, you should be familiar with the fact that 99 out of 100 dreamers won't even come close to executing on their plan, and the 1 out of 100 that will execute do not have big attitude problems and no knowledge of the subject matter. And thats just generically. When it comes to the 'I want turbos on my thirdgen question" the statistic is probably more like 999 out of 1000 that ask it will never even touch a turbo or see one in person, let alone fab it up.
Back to the original poster, you need to grounds yourself in reality. You are not going to build a turbo set-up for your car while your in college. OK, i guess Andris did, but he used it as part of a design project for his ME degree, and IIRC he didn't start out by saying, hey guys, whats a good turbo set-up for my car.
Notice how i brought that back to the noob question. Basically, it seems to me that simply ASKING that question tells a lot about you. It says that you have no idea what the aftermarket is for thirdgen power adders, and you have no idea what is involved with turbos in general except they make you go faster. There are no turbo kits for our cars, and fabbing a turbo set-up for yourself requires huge amounts of fabrication and time, and if you want to do it right, it's going to cost a decent chunk of money too. A quick search on these boards should at the least tell you that much. And it should also show you the level of derision you will be subjected too as all the vets pick on yet another know it all, that we know is going to dissappear in 2 weeks when they realize they can't even afford 4 name brand tires for their 16" wheels let alone a 450+ hp blown engine and the drivetrain to take it.
Nothing personal meant, but as the resident ******* vet, i figured i'd clue some of you in as to what's up with the harsh treatment. The people you see dishing it out here are just wise old cynics who see right through this guy's pie in the sky post for what it is, dreaming. I mean, if he was really building an engine with AFR heads, don't you think he could get the (1)90 part right, and the only type of person who would include 'with heat riser' is catalog dreaming for sure as well. Guys who run turbos also wouldn't even consider buying a plenum from ligenfelter as well since the first thing they did when modifying their car was port the plenum themself and they know paying for such a service would be ludicrous.
Really tho, ATM there isn't one turbo kit available for a thirdgen, yes there are several members that have single and twin turbos on their thirdgens, they all home built their respective setups from scratch. Which also means they did a ton of research, alot of dammit, why won't that fit?, as well as scrape up the parts and pieces to built their systems. Then, I suggest you ask one of these guys, the time and money spent to "complete" their cars. More than they would care to admit...at least to thier wives..
Once you have the turbo system built.. how are you going to control the fuel issues?? Again, more time, cash and research to find what works best. <hint> search for 749 ECM.
Cheers and Merry Christmas, Bob
__________________ 84 SVO 9W HE351 Holset, B234F, custom intake, header, FMIC, MSII, Map Daddy
- my toy 86 Olds 442 403, 200R4, 8.5" 3.73 posi, T-Tops - mmm.. torque
-her toy
alright, i admit, i dont know much at all about turbos, just the basic concepts on setups and how they work, my friend has 2 gn's and theyre damn fast for 6 cyls and i thought id try and see whats possible for my car, i know it probably wont be what i expect it to be but i have already started the engine i have the engine crank and rods, maybe it wont be anything special, it might not even run, but hey im trying, and no i dont want to read through the thousands of pages of talk about turbos which from what ive seen is mostly "wow thats a nice setup" and "where can i get one of those" i just thought id post my question, for those of you who do not want to reply or read it, dont, i dont have a gun to your head making you anwser my questions, i dont even know any of you. and no, im not going to disappear in 2 weeks, i have been here for about a year now, and i plan on sticking around, everything you have here is pretty useful, i just dont post all too often because ill always get someone saying im wrong or im dumb or something like that. so maybe i dont know everything that you people do, but im probably about 1/3 the age of you and i have plenty of time to get to where all of you are. so im sorry if i hurt your feelings saying that my car will be faster than yours but i was busting your chops, i doubt it will be fast if i can even get it to run but when all of your were coming out of highschool or in high school, dont even try to tell me that you knew everything you knew now andyou didnt have dreams of having that bad @ss 454 chevelle that would make everyone run when they heard it rumble up the street... so again sorry for trying to ask a question, i just thought that you would me a little more tolerant and patient, i guess ill just stick to the boys at mickey's, they never mind a stupis question or 2. merry christmas
Guys, so what if he's just dreaming? I think that there is nothing more important in life than having a dream. You do have to act on it though, dreaming with no action is simply wasting time.
If someone wants to do a TT set up on their car, we should all encourage him, maybe that way, TT on thirdgens won't be so rare.
{/get off soapbox/}
Steve
BTW, "Nothing succeeds like excess." - Oscar Wilde
Originally posted by 87TA 305TPI because i have a job and goto school, and i have many other things that i do every day which prevent me from reading hundreds if not thousands of posts about turbos, and there are lots of other things on the website that i like to read about, and since the turbo wouldent be untill the engine itself is done id rather spend more time reading about other engine components. sorry if i was wrong to post something on here, i thought that was what it was for.
wrong answer kiddo. if you plan to do these kind of things yourself. you better make time to read. if not save your cash and pay someone to do everything for you.
ED: you're absolutely right about the constant re-posts of questions relating to turbos, choice of sparkplugs, Airfoils, LT1 vs HSR vs LTR intakes, engine oil brands, etc..etc.. there are a lot of redundant questions that nobody seems to take the time to do a search, and I can see how frustrating it can be. Believe me, I'm with you on your point.
But I also remember when a T56 couldn't be done, when the LT1 intake swap couldn't be done, siamesing the TPI baseplate and a bunch of other ideas couldn'tbe done.
I just felt that the comments that were shot out at this kid off the bat was just quite unnecessary and I saw where the kid would've taken it the wrong way especially considering that he came on here initially with the right attitude.
but im probably about 1/3 the age of you and i have plenty of time to get to where all of you are.
I just turned 21 in October
__________________ Ian Moore
1985 Camaro Sport Coupe - TPI
Five Liter TBI Eater -=ICON MOTORSPORTS=- - Motorsports for ignorant people. Need a Custom PROM?
I don't think a whole lot of people on this board are 60. I just turned 20 a couple of weeks ago. On the whole turbo thing, if you really want to do it then its going to take time doing the research. If you don't want to wade through bull**** then you're not going to get it done. I've been researching this stuff for well over a year and think I'm finally getting to know enough to build my setup, but theres still plenty I don't know. Research is key.
The guy has a dream, maybe its out there, but its not impossible.
I am 23 and a full time student and full time worker. I agree that reading over hundreds of passed posts is a bit ridiculouos for anyone. I have searched all kinds of archives and most of the stuff was not at all what I wanted.
Why so much attitude when all he was asking for was some help with an idea?
Its not like he drives a mustang or anything lameass like that!!
thanks for the support guys and sorry about calling you old. i was just runnin my mouth.... im just happy to make it home to be telling you this, its snowing here in chicago like most winters, but my winter car broke down and i havent fixed it yet so i had to drive my trusty TA out to my aunts house which isnt exactly next door and i wasnt sure id make it, damn i wish it had 4wd and anti-lock brakes.... but anyway thanks for the support and when this engine is done ill be posting pics ASAP just to show people that it will be done, even though im sure this post will be long-gone, but hey, merry f'in christmas everyone.....
In the future it'd be better to do a search and read through a ton of posts to find what you want. I've found that it's normally faster that way; you've got a lot more material at hand than the one or two posts you'll get by the time you check your post again. Most people on this boards are younger than you'd think. Good luck on your project.
Originally posted by 92 zzz28 Whats with all the attitude?
The guy has a dream, maybe its out there, but its not impossible.
I am 23 and a full time student and full time worker. I agree that reading over hundreds of passed posts is a bit ridiculouos for anyone. I have searched all kinds of archives and most of the stuff was not at all what I wanted.
Why so much attitude when all he was asking for was some help with an idea?
Its not like he drives a mustang or anything lameass like that!!
for all these guys who do know alot. for them to take time and explain this stuff to us is a privilage. they arent required to do it. and i know i'd get annoyed typing the same thing 50 times.
so all you people need to stop being lazy and search and read.
It's not even like 'we' don't feel like explaining things. It's simply TOO MUCH to just sit down and explain. And like i said, th kid caought heat because he started to lip off rather than do a quick look on the power adder board, which was the best suggestion. turbos are not something you just explain in one post.
i kno u dont mind explaining but like i said and u said too jus now. it takes time. and i doubt ud wanna write 20 threads worth of **** 50 times ova for each kid whos too lazy to read.
Here's an analogy that perhaps explains why noob questions are a pain and impossible to answer.
Asking 'turbo my thirdgen' is kinda like walking into a room full of engineers and asking how to solve a third order differential equation. And you barely passed trig. Of course everybody groans because you're asking way too big of a question when you have no background or starting point.
If you want to just throw money at the car, getting a turbo setup is easy, just send it to any of the larger custom turbo shops and they'll do the work for you. If like most people, you plan on doing this yourself, keep in mind it will take lots of fabrication, time, and most importantly, research. Cost is always a factor, but without the knowledge of what to do, may as well scrap the whole idea.
after reading through more info about turbocharging and what you need to do, im pretty sure im going to go with a supercharger setup instead because it is easier to install, takes up much less room, and is cheaper as a finished product. the turbo was just a thought and i think im going with supercharger instead. thanks anyways
__________________ 1987 white on blue trans-am, 305 TPI mostly stock, accel HO coil, BoschHeavy duty cap and rotor, Borg Warner wires, high flow stock fit muffler, Homemade fan switches, 180 degree stat. currently building a 350 FI engine from a new GM block, hopefully to be finished by next summer.
The blower is definitely the easier route, may want to re-think your connecting rods though.
GM PM rods have failed on one instance I've seen firsthand, with an ATI blower pushing 8-12psi of boost. It may have been a manufacturing defect, or may just have exceeded their limits...the guy had blown 2 head gaskets, had the block o-ringed, next thing he trashed a rod. He was making serious pressure. Specs on his car are at http://www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=25
You have some decisions to make on piston selection. To run major boost, you need relatively low compression. If you plan to keep the pressure down, you can design more compression into the piston/chamber geometry.
Nothing wrong with having a dream. I too would like to own a turbocharged sbc someday, but right now its not something thats easy to come by. There are no pre-made kits for our cars. Anything you do will either be a DIY, or a very expensive project. Some of the DIY'ers like Guido have said it only costs them about $5000 to get their setup going. Other guys like Monty had the $15k to drop and he ended up with a really sweet setup. So either way its an expensive project.
So for now, the blower is the easier way to go. There are proven combos that won't require any fab work at all, and are fairly cheap compared to a turbo setup. My turbo dream won't become a reality untill Gale Banks comes out with his kits. I've done alot of reading on converting the old Banks kit (carb'd turbo setup) to work with EFI, and its gonna be expensive. It makes more sense to me (being the kind of person who cant fab his own headers, etc ... the non DIY guy) to wait for a pre-made setup that I know will work, instead of investing money into something that might work, and even at that, might work .. ok .. (not using full potential).
In the future you should just do the search and read on your free time. Nobody ever built a turbo setup in a week .. it takes alot of time and planning. Start it with reading and researching.
i was reading about the kits that vortech makes but they only run 6-8 psi unless you go buy an upgraded blower, would that low of PSI be worth putting on the engine im making? also, their kit for our cars is non-intercooled, would i be better off getting one even with that low of boost? or would i be better off finding something elsewhere for the same price with more boost?
__________________ 1987 white on blue trans-am, 305 TPI mostly stock, accel HO coil, BoschHeavy duty cap and rotor, Borg Warner wires, high flow stock fit muffler, Homemade fan switches, 180 degree stat. currently building a 350 FI engine from a new GM block, hopefully to be finished by next summer.
The vortech kits that push 6-8 psi I think would make more sense for you as a starting point. You can get away with more boost later after you get the calibrations set up right and with the lower levels of boost you can stay away from the dreaded detonation prone to higher levels and poor calibrations. With the 6-8 psi you can run a little more compression ratio than if you were planning on a 12-14 psi boost system.
Don't forget about the rare Gale Banks Turbo TPI kit. I was reading a post a while back where a guy pointed out to another such as yourself (wanting a turbo but not wanting to fabricate) a gale kit on ebay. The guy bid on it (was the only one too) and got it. Not bad for I think it was 3 grand. Don't give up, if you want a turbo bad enough.....something's bound to show up. Like a totalled GNX or something. lol
__________________ 1987 white on blue trans-am, 305 TPI mostly stock, accel HO coil, BoschHeavy duty cap and rotor, Borg Warner wires, high flow stock fit muffler, Homemade fan switches, 180 degree stat. currently building a 350 FI engine from a new GM block, hopefully to be finished by next summer.
Originally posted by 3.1EyeCandy Don't forget about the rare Gale Banks Turbo TPI kit. I was reading a post a while back where a guy pointed out to another such as yourself (wanting a turbo but not wanting to fabricate) a gale kit on ebay. The guy bid on it (was the only one too) and got it. Not bad for I think it was 3 grand. Don't give up, if you want a turbo bad enough.....something's bound to show up. Like a totalled GNX or something. lol
i think your talking about the callaway tt setup they made for the l98 corvettes back in the day
Just thought I'd throw in that the other car that easySPEEDcamaro posted a picture of on formul8!!'s post makes over 1900Hp. The green Camaro w/ the single turbo. That car is Drag Race only though...A larger picture would show the 33x10.5's on the back so that he can run the "street" class. Well, back-halfed only class in outlaw street. - That's Bill Futch's car, a buddy of my dad's.
i am going to install a single turbo on my car to start with, then upgrade to twins. i have a manifold which is made for the turbo. the set up is for a carbed car, but i am going to use the manifold and the turbo, everything else i am going to have to buy or make. here are a few pics of it.
oh, and i paid 150 shiped for this.
__________________ 85 trans am: 355 sbc, miniram, 58mmTB, hooker supercomps, xr276 roller cam, world products sportsman2 heads, 1.6 comp pro magnums, afr rev kit, racetronix 37lb injectors, T56, spec stage 3, pro 5.0 shifter, 9 bolt with 4:10 gears, full tubular spohn suspension
Give me a break... 
