TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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Effective immediately, this will be the redundent question thread. If you know a question that is constantly asked, yet has a really simple answer, put it in here. From then on, anytime someone asks that question I will lock it and remind them to read the stickies.
Also, I reserve the right to edit this thread in the event that I don't think that something should be here. Also, the same general rules as the index/FAQ thread, please don't waste space with sigs or the like. Just a Q and A please.
Note, this isn't meant to replace the FAQ/Index sticky. I still want to see people add useful info to that as well. This is just a thread to serve as a help for those that need answers to easy frequently asked TPI questions.
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Last edited by Ed Maher; 02-28-2003 at 10:48 AM.
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Q1: What shoulld i set my AFPR to for maximum performance.
A1: There is no specific setting. An AFPR is a tuning tool. Go to the track, get a G-tech, borrow a sundial, but find some way to measure your cars performance. Then see how it changes when you adjust the AFPR. Usually helps if you ensure as much consistency as possible, i.e. same road/track, same conditions, wheelspin under control, etc.
Q2: Where should i set my timing?
A2. Read A1 and pretend timing is setting the AFPR
Q: Which intake is the best Mini ram, Accel intake, or super ram.
A: Buy them all then do your own testing. Then let us know.
edit: Also, do some searching. Over the years a few members HAVE posted comparisons between the intakes. 2 names that come to mind are Mike Davis and grumpyvette (probably mispelled) But noone is just going to repost their findings cuz some newbie is asking, just search it out and you'll learn more.
A: None.
If you had to ask, you dont need it. Do the exhaust, intake base, cam, and heads, in that order (many do heads and cam at the same time... makes sense). Sometime after you start running 12's, you can think about a different TB, otherwise you are just wasting your money.
1) Street or autocross- Stick with the Long Tube runner for low end torque. Maybe a Super ram also.
2) Drag Racing or road course- Try a Super Ram, miniram or Holley Stealth Ram- to move the power band higher and be able to move more air at high RPMs.
Originally posted by Ed Maher Q2: Where should i set my timing?
A2. Read A1 and pretend timing is setting the AFPR
Ed, timing is set in the ECU on a TPI car. It is only adjustable by reprogramming the prom.
Changing the base timing at the distributor is only lieing to the ECU and could hurt perfromance.
__________________
1997 Jeep Wrangler
1991 Honda TRX300
Last edited by John Millican; 03-02-2003 at 10:14 PM.
When Ed put pretend timing is setting the AFPR from the A1, he meant that to mean that timing will be different for everyone. Just go out and test, make changes according to what YOU find out. No one here can tell anyone where to set their timing, even the base timing is different for lots of posts I have read in the searches.
Hey Ed, a long time ago, Dirk had a "common question" HTML page. I don'tr have it on my hd, but Dirk might, it was in the old http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard3/ directory, titled "common.html"
Q: Will LS1 heads work with my LB9/L98, SBC1 engine?
A: forget about it.
Q: Will LT1 heads work with my LB9/L98, SBC1 engine?
A: With machine work to the water jackets and coolant outlet yes.
Q: LT1/LT4 Intake shniz?
A: LT1 intake has similar port locations to Gen1 heads/intakes, LT4 to vortec and fastburn. Vortec, Fastburn, And LT4 are "Exceptions" to the standard Gen1 heads with different intake runner locations. LT4's would require machining to work.
The HSR will not fit corvette hoods--check out grumpyvette's latest posts as he is working to get a custom plenum made to fit corvettes and firebirds without the clearance work.
A: All flavors considered, MAF is typically better, however, within the scope of thirdgen F-bodies' available factory technology, MAP is the more advanced system and will *support* more power than a 3rdgen MAF based system.
Only planning on doing basic mods (eg. exhaust, airfoil, filter)? MAF is fine. Going to a large(r) displacement motor with A/M heads, cam, etc.? MAP may be the way to go depending on just how wild things get.
Both systems benefit greatly from tuning, and the MAF system's adaptiveness is no substitute for said tuning.
The best route is to set your base timing as _LOW AS POSSIBLE_. This ensures easy starts, especially when hot. 0-6 degrees is a recommended base timing.
Your overall timing (rpm vs load) needs to be done in the prom.
Timing should be (not in all cases!) within 1-2 degrees of knock at every rpm/load point.
To answer the question about fuel pressure:
Your fuel pressure should be set so that at the lowest RPM the
smallest injector pulse can be achieved, and at highest RPM
the LONGEST pulse could be achieved both supplying the correct a/f ratio for your application. There is no 'set' number for any given engine.
The idea here is that, The injectors have a range that they can pulse at. You want your fuel pressure set so you get the correct
lbs/hr at any given RPM range without maxing out the duty of the injector at the high rpm (not enough pressure, injector open too long) or at low rpm, the shortest pulse needs to supply enough / not too much fuel.
Injector pulse width + fuel pressure have NO direct relation to performance, they are simply to make sure your operation range and powerband match.
I figured that out once. At sea level it was 540cfm. I think even 420HP is being generous. But also keep in mind, you can staticly
control fuel based on RPM after that (in the prom). I'm not saying
this is wonderful!
I absolutely agree with you with porting. I thought TPI was nice before the blower. Now that I'm blown, I almost wish I went LT1
or TBI even.
Originally posted by Kingtal0n Stock TPI runs "out of breath" around 5200 RPMS on the L98 motors. This is due to runner length, so porting the stock TPI Runners does little to help this.
The Stock MAF sensor (1984-88) can measure up to 255 Grams of air per second, or enough air for about 420 horsepower @ roughly 5200 RPMS.
Just a minor correction here, the MAF can "read" higher than 255 gps but its in the 8-bit ECM where the 255 limit is reached due to the fact that 255 is the highest number possible in binary code for an 8-bit. So before people start asking "will an LT1 maf solve the problem?" they should know their ECM is the culprit
__________________ -1985 IROC-Z w/T-tops - The LT1/L98 *sold*
The reason GM didn't assign an additional byte was simply because the code would have to check if the first byte was on before referencing the second byte. That would be. Messy..
If your a coder you'll understand this.
A 10 or 16bit ECM would be the solution for this issue with MAF.
I'm sure there is a better thread for this, and if a moderator chooses to delete/move it to its own post it thats fine...
I thought about this yesterday. My 68HC11 assembler book talks about a instruction, I think itd ADDB what it does is combine two 8 bit registers into a fake 16 bit register.
I think the problem is actually in the driver for the MAF, I think the driver is designed to utilize only an 8 bit signed register (-127 to
+127) which is hardware, I think.
Otherwise, I don't see why someone wouldn't have just hacked the code a looong time ago.
Interesting, I remember that Vader (i think) was doing alot of research into this topic with the goal of beating the 255 limit. I wonder if his findings concur with yours. I think you're on to somthing though. I also think most of this should be moved to form its own topic, with the exception of the post saying that the problem is not in the MAF sensor but in the computer.
In reply to the 255 limit of the maf.....there is plenty of info on the diy chip burning section of this site.Generally speaking you would have to have a relatively stout motor (mid 12's is my guess) to exceed this limit.The problem is the ecu won't read beyond this not that the maf is the issue.But thru prom burning (changing the a/f ratio for p.e./wot.easily solves this issue.
__________________ 87 IROC WITH 409(.040 OVER400) MINIRAM,NOS(125HP)TRICK FLOW PORTED HEADS,Comp Cam,1/3/4 headers,DIY PROM,MODIFIED
700R TRANS,3200MW convertor,58
mm bbk t.b. 3.73POSI REAREND.
LOOKING FOR THE 11 SEC. ZONE. With new combo current ets.12.13@116.46 mph
Is the difference between MAF and speed density blatantly obvious when looking? Are there any TPI units to stay away from or are harder to work with? What has to be changed to make a 5.0L TPI work with a 5.7L TPI (I recognize that both will physically fit either displacement engine).
Originally posted by jrg77 Is the difference between MAF and speed density blatantly obvious when looking? Are there any TPI units to stay away from or are harder to work with? What has to be changed to make a 5.0L TPI work with a 5.7L TPI (I recognize that both will physically fit either displacement engine).
Originally posted by jrg77 Is the difference between MAF and speed density blatantly obvious when looking? Are there any TPI units to stay away from or are harder to work with? What has to be changed to make a 5.0L TPI work with a 5.7L TPI (I recognize that both will physically fit either displacement engine).
Iroc n roll suggested this question doesn't belong here. Actually I think part of it does. He asks three distinct questions. The second and third might rate separate threads, but I think the first one belongs here.
Q. Is the difference between Maf and speed density blatantly obvious?
A. Yes Maf has a maf sensor in the intake hose between the air cleaner and the throttle body. The speed density system has a hose running between the air cleaner & throttle body with no components between.
That's a rough question (and a bit vague) and probably doesn't belong here. If you want the stock hp numbers you can look up the hp rating of whatever motor you want. If you want to know the hp limit of any motor you just have to look at its displacement. All power comes from however many joules of energy is released in the whatever amount of gas is combusted, minus however much energy is lost to heat (which is basically most of it). Go here and plug in some numbers:
That should give you some quick and dirty theoretical calculations for a motors hp "limit". If you want more info you'll probably have to post somewhere else..... I'm pretty sure this isn't a banne d topic.....unless all you want is stock numbers....then it is by all means.
__________________ -1985 IROC-Z w/T-tops - The LT1/L98 *sold*
Originally posted by jrg77 Is the difference between MAF and speed density blatantly obvious when looking? Are there any TPI units to stay away from or are harder to work with? What has to be changed to make a 5.0L TPI work with a 5.7L TPI (I recognize that both will physically fit either displacement engine).
I know it's been almost a year but I might as well take another swing at this one. TPI units from 5.0 and 5.7 motors are identical with the exception that one uses 19# injectors and the other 22# injectors. Other than that the only difference lies in the SBC generation change in 87 when they changed the bolt angle. So 85-86 are the same and 87-92 are the same.
__________________ -1985 IROC-Z w/T-tops - The LT1/L98 *sold*
Originally posted by Asad I meant, before things break....badly. What are the components capable of handling?
I myself don't think there is a simple answer to this question at all. Alot of members have run some pretty high hp numbers on stock motors with no problems. There are plenty of other components you have to worry about before the motor like the tranny and the rear end, the latter which I personally anihilated with only about 40 hp over stock. I'm sure you'll get more than one opinion on this topic. BTW, welcome to thirdgen.org
__________________ -1985 IROC-Z w/T-tops - The LT1/L98 *sold*
Is this the MPFI section too???
If not, then whee is it???
__________________ 86 Pontiac Firebird
[68 Firebird hoodscoops, custom notchback,
custom rear mounted tach, inverted wing.] http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/v6...-all-over.html
I love my new notch-back. See link for newer pics and above mods.
Originally posted by Gumby Is this the MPFI section too???
If not, then whee is it???
This is not the MPFI section. The V6 board would be what you are looking for. MPFI was only offered on the V6 while TPI was only offered on the V8 motors.
This is not the MPFI section. The V6 board would be what you are looking for. MPFI was only offered on the V6 while TPI was only offered on the V8 motors.
And FYI, TPI and MPFI are fancy names for the exact same thing. Port fuel injection. Only major differences between port-injected systems in general, so far as I know, are in how they're fired, sequential or batch. They probably just re-name them so people associate them with a particular motor and intake setup
And FYI, TPI and MPFI are fancy names for the exact same thing. Port fuel injection. Only major differences between port-injected systems in general, so far as I know, are in how they're fired, sequential or batch. They probably just re-name them so people associate them with a particular motor and intake setup
No.. TPI a form of MPFI. TPI = Tuned port injection, i.e tuned runner lengths.
And FYI, TPI and MPFI are fancy names for the exact same thing. Port fuel injection. Only major differences between port-injected systems in general, so far as I know, are in how they're fired, sequential or batch.
Yes and no. Yes, they're both port injection. No, they are no fancy names for the exact same thing, and you gave the reason
Quote:
They probably just re-name them so people associate them with a particular motor and intake setup
The terms absolutely refer to the air induction system. If not we would just call them batch or sequential FI... which we in fact do when not reffering to the intake. I get what you're saying but we just need to avoid thing that can be misinterpreted like that on a FAQ sticky like this.
Q: Can I pick my nose with my left index finger while enjoying a Philly Steak&Cheese sandwitch while changing my oil and adjusting my carb? Can it be done???
A: Never pick your nose and work on your car at the same time!
__________________ The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw...
A rcent sudty funod taht it deosnt meattr waht odrer the lerttes of a wrod are in, the olny imopraotnt tihng is taht the fsirt and lsat lerttes are in corrcet poistiosn. Unfaertontely, tahts not the csae for evryhtieng in lfie………………
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and he will sit on a boat drinking beer for a life time
Q: Can I pick my nose with my left index finger while enjoying a Philly Steak&Cheese sandwitch while changing my oil and adjusting my carb? Can it be done???
A: Never pick your nose and work on your car at the same time!
Sooo does that mean it's cool to eat a philly steak&cheese sandwich though?
Yes and no. Yes, they're both port injection. No, they are no fancy names for the exact same thing, and you gave the reason
The terms absolutely refer to the air induction system. If not we would just call them batch or sequential FI... which we in fact do when not reffering to the intake. I get what you're saying but we just need to avoid thing that can be misinterpreted like that on a FAQ sticky like this.
Actually, both the TPI & MPFI are batch fire systems (as used on 3rd Gens). They are very similar except TPI had "Tuned Runners" for torque.
Q: how hard is it to install an open element on my carb/tbi? what should I use?
A: It's as easy as hell. You'll need a longet stud with a wingnut. Just disconnect the hoses going to your old one, remove. installation is the reverse of removal. The tube coming from the valve cover can have a breather put on and left open to atmosphere. As for size, 14" is most common. I have a 14x3 drop base on my t/a and it's fine. does not interfere with the dizzy. Some people have clearance with a 3" non-drop base, some dont.
ive searched around i cant find out what kind of fuel mileage a tpi or tbi v8 camaro in a third gen gets. could anyone tell me a site or any info? thanks
ive searched around i cant find out what kind of fuel mileage a tpi or tbi v8 camaro in a third gen gets. could anyone tell me a site or any info? thanks
thats for every pontiac made in 87. you can use that site for any year I think.
__________________
87' Trans am - 305 TPI, 700R4, Bone stock.
future plans - built 700r4, disc rear, then mild 350 (shooting for atleast 300 rwhp) http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2535588
"some teens still have a good taste in cars"
Heh, good luck with that, depending on the year it lists the v6 cars, 305TBI cars and L98’s all getting the same gas mileage which they aren’t even close in the real world.
