92blue

iTrader: (1)

Just dropped in a fresh 350 in my car. I have been having a rough time trying to get it to start. It has spark, and it has fuel. I dropped the distributor in pointing to #1 plug wire when the mark on the balancer showed as 0 degrees on the timing cover. Then I just advanced it slightly by hand (counter clockwise, correct?) The engine will turn over, and once in you can hear it attempt to fire and almost start, but it doesn't. For a while I was thinking that it might not be getting enough fuel, so I threw in a memcal for a 383 that I had lying around, but it didn't help. Actually flooded the motor. I could smell gas standing upwind.

I let the car sit for over an hour, put the 350 memcal back in, and tried it again. I've tried advancing the distributor a bit, but no success. Every once in a while, it will almost start, as you can hear it fire, but it won't start up.

Before I got to this point, when I was trying to rule out possible problems, I checked for spark. That was fine. ECM is wired correctly, as I triple checked each wire. Power supplies and grounds to the ecm are all fine. I can hear the fuel pump priming, and the injectors are firing. This distributor came out of my running L03, so its not bad. I have tried two different ecms and three different memcals.

I am getting a code 12, which is a good sign. Just don't know what to do from here....anyone have any ideas? Does this sound like the timing isn't advanced enough?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Assuming:

1) you lined up the cam with the crank correctly and
2) when the balancer is at 0, both valves are closed on #1 cyl and
3) valves are adjusted enough to run the motor and
4) you have no major vac leaks or sealing problems and
5) you have the plugs in the CORRECT firing order

Then I would do a compression test on each cyl, and see if something went wrong. I imagine you have valve covers on it.. I usually leave them off until everything works right..

Starting fluid is your friend. Well, at least its mine. Hold the throttle wide open, have your buddy crank and spray starting fluid into the TB.. If it dont light, try turning the dist retarded and advanced while your buddy's cranking the motor.

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Like i said in your previous post check to see if you have your distributor in 180 degrees off. If it is 180 off your mark will still be on the balancer. Try this, flip your plug wires on the cap to the opposite ones. Like switch 1&6, 2&3, 7&4, 5&8. Then try it again.

92blue

iTrader: (1)

I did check the distributor like you mentioned. I pulled it out completely, and installed it again as if the engine had been turned. I turned the engine over to line up the mark on the balancer with the timing mark, and made sure when I droped the distributor in that it points to #1 plug wire.

Correct me if I am wrong, but although the balancer mark lines up with the timing mark on two possible ocassions, the rotor can point to #1 on only one of these two ocassions.

Anesthes, I am pretty confident that the cam and crank were lined up correctly, valve lash was properly set, and the firing order is correct. I'll pull the valve cover tomorrow and double check both valves are closed on #1. From my understanding, that will be the case if I were to install the distributor like I described above.

I have a question about starting fluid though. I am flooding the motor by trying to start it too frequently. How exactly is starting fluid going to help? Isn't the problem actually igniting fuel , or starting fluid for that matter?

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

try re adjusting your valves.....ive seen it happen many times...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Starting fluid often lights even a flooded motor. I'm more concerned about your compression at this point.

Yeah, 4 stroke, balancer should point to 0 twice.. What I normally do is yank the #1 plug out, and listen. the valves will be closed on the end of the compression stroke, so it will hiss loudly out the plug hole. On every other stroke, a valve will be open.


My advice above about checking valves open/closed was to simply verify when the piston was all the way up, the cam was in the right spot.

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

The distributor will drop in pointing at 1 OR 6 on both occasions. Seriosly try my suggestion, its easy and doesn't take long.

92blue

iTrader: (1)

87350IROC, this morning I went out and pulled the valve cover. Pulled the cap off, pulled the distributor out, and removed all the plug wires from the cap. I decided to start from scratch, and not assume anything. Lined up the mark on the balancer with zero when both the intake and exhaust valves were closed. Dropped the distributor in, rotated the distributor slightly to line up the rotor with the nearest terminal. Put the cap on, and slightly advanced the dist. Then I went ahead and installed the plug wires, triple checking the firing order.

When I tried to start it, it turned for a while, then backfired. I noticed a fireworks-like smell after the backfire. Not sure what that means.

I'm starting to get frustrated. I'm not sure where this leaves me. Having the piston at TDC with both valves closed means the cam and crank are properly aligned, the distributor is installed correctly to my understanding, injectors are firing, I have spark, I even tried backing off on the rocker nuts half a turn to see if maybe they were too tight.


I'm gonna have to recharge the battery, as its almost dead from trying to start yesterday.

I'll try the starting fluid idea after I recharge the battery.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Your dist is 180` off. Rotate the motor one more time to 0, then put the dist back in.


-- Joe

Stekman

Or pull the dizzy, twist it 180 and restab it...the only OTHER way it will restab.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I know how you feel, i was in the same situation. But i just ask you before you assume anything major just try it. I see it so many times. Its very easy.

doc

#1 cylinder will be at FIRING TDC when you come up on the marks and the #6 valves are rocking and #1 valves are both closed. In fact, the intake valve on #1 should have been the last one to close when coming up the firing TDC. See, you want firing TDC. Then drop in the dizzy.

rgarcia63

This is what I do first, I stuff a rag, rubber ball...etc. in the #1 spark plug hole, crank it in increments till the ball pops out, TDC should be just past the pointer, I turn the crank back past the pointer then forward ( to compensate for any slack in the timing chain) and line up at TDC.
Second, I stab the dizzy so that when it seats the connectors are facing the firewall, and the rotor is pointing to which ever post on the cap I'm going to use for #1. If the Dizzy doesn't seat all the way, I pull it out and use a long flat blade screw driver to align the oil pump shaft.
Finally, I drop the Dizzy in again, clamp it down, wire it up, and it's ready to go.

92blue

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for all your help so far guys.. I somehow managed to screw up ( surprise surprise ) dropping in the dist. this most recent time I dropped it in. I did as you guys were telling me, and turned it 180. Tried to fire it, and it turned for a while, struggling to start. Advanced the timing slightly, and it started to kickback when I turned the key. Retarded it a bit, and it started, ran for a little over a second or two, and died. Kept trying to start it, and it sounds like it will almost start, but doesn't.

I pulled a plug out, put the wire back on it, and set it next to the block. I had my dad crank the motor over while, I looked to see how strong a spark we were getting, and it doesn't look too good. Spark is yellow. We had checked for spark before, but I had turned the key while my dad checked for spark. He had told me it was fine, so I had taken that for granted until now when I decided to check again.

Doesn't yellow mean the spark isn't hot enough? Should be white or blue right?

I tested the ignition coil with a multimeter as per the instructions in Chiltons, and it tested fine. I also tested the pickup coil, and that was fine too.

What should I check for now? Any ideas?

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

quite honestly...it just seems you need to take it to a professional...or get a professional to help...with all this cranking and the engine is freshly rebuilt...its going to ruin those brand new bearings...because lack of oil pressure...

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Are you saying flipping the dizzy helped? If yes, then i would play with timing. Also what chip do you have in there.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

if the battery has a good charge, & you still have the external type stock ignition system & have yellow spark, it is weak. a good working factory HEI system with the external coil with the coil wire off at the coil can jump spark down the outside of the tower to the laminations. check for system voltage at the coil when cranking.
testing with a DVMM can show the coil is good, but it only measures the resistance of the windings, it won't always show if the coil is carbon tracked on the inside. a weak ignition module can also cause weak spark. if the module turns out to be your problem, replace the ignition coil too.

92blue

iTrader: (1)

I did play with the timing a bit today. I moved it very little each time, and tried cranking it. I tried advancing it a hair, and it started to kickback when cranking. So I tried retarding it a bit. Kickback went away, but didn't really help to start. I ended up leaving it as it was when it did momentarily start.

Currently, I have a Painless chip in it. Its not what I plan on using, I have one of the Moates adapters with a zif on it. I burnt a chip with a few items changed ( !air, !egr, injector size...)for now, just to get it running so I can go from there. I know the Painless chip is working, and since my goal was to just get the thing fired, that would eliminate one more possible source for a problem at the moment.

I currently have a stock ignition setup with the external coil. Is it safe to assume that a good coil HAS to jump spark down from the tower? What should the voltage at the coil be?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

How do you know the chip is working? I had a similar no start problem, it turned out to be my pcmforless chip. I put the stocker on and it started right up. Something else to try.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

when im checking a no start on this type of ignition system, with the coil wire off i look for it to have consistent spark down the tower to the laminations when cranking, if not, i check the 12 volt supply wire to the coil, it should be within half a volt of what the battery reads with both key on & when cranking. if the voltage drops below 10 volts there is a problem somewhere. normally the voltage doesn't drop below about 11 volts. if the supply voltage is good & the module is able to trigger the coil but it doesn't have consistent spark down the tower i replace the coil.

rgarcia63

Sorry, 87350IROC, mistakely quoted your post.

You don't need a Pro, just patience, don't assume anything verify it.
The ECM should flash a 12 in diag mode.
Remember you have 8 cylinders, what you do for one do for all.
Spark: test at the end of the wires where it's needed not just to ground, and with the proper gap (use a spark tester, or a new plug because plugs can get fouled if they don't get hot enough to clean themselves.)

Timing: make sure you're on the compression stroke (stuffing the hole & cranking slowly has always worked for me,) and have at lease 80psi, or combustion won't take place. Disconnect the timing connector until you've got it running.

Fuel: With the key off you can apply 12volts to the ALDL terminal "G" to power the fuel pump the fuel pressure should be about 44psi and hold after cutting of the pump (some say it may gradually lose pressure, but that doesn't matter as long as it supplies the correct pressure while cranking.) See that all injectors are flowing not just the injector signal. You don't need to press on the pedal to start, the ECM knows to inject more fuel during cold startups, pressing on the pedal to much will flood it. Your plugs are probably fouled by now, put in a cheap set of plugs until you get it started.

92blue

iTrader: (1)

I guess I really don't know for sure that the Painless chip is working, I just assumed it was since it was pulled from a running car not long ago. I'll give the other one a try.

I had checked a day or two ago for codes, and the only thing it is throwing is a code 12. Thats good.

Hopefully I'll be able to work on the car today. Wind is pretty gusty right now, as we have a hurricane just offshore. I'll post whatever I find out.

92blue

iTrader: (1)

After dealing with hurricane preparations, and the first week of school, I haven't had much time left over. My battery decided to take a dump in the middle of all this. Finally got that taken care of as well. Checked fuel pressure. Its at 48 psi, and holds for quite a while.

Well, the car starts now. Only now I realize what has been happening all along. I originally had the distributor correctly installed, but the coil was bad. I have tried another coil that I had a couple of times, but each time that I had tried it, it just so happened that the distributor was off 180, as I had tried to rotate it as you guys had suggested. Basically, every time the dist was right, I had the bad coil on it. Every time the good coil was on, the dist. was off 180. This is what I get for trying to touch more than one thing at a time. Feel kinda stupid now.

To make a long story short, I found another problem when the car was running really really rough. Either the TPS 5v ref, or the MAP 5v ref ( can't remember which) wire wasn't hooked up to the ecm. Anyway fixed that, took the painless chip out, and tried mine. Started rather easily, the roughness is gone, but the car won't idle. It will only run so long as I step on the gas pedal.

Now I just need to fix the problem I'm having with my laptop and Tuner Pro so I can take a look at all the sensors and figure out whats going on. I can't really tune anything without that. Tuner Pro doesn't seem to be fully functional on either my win95 laptop, or another win95 desktop I have. On my Xp desktop, it works fine, but when I dragged it outside to try to use the ALDL utility, it won't connect. Oh well, thats a separate post.

Thanks alot to all of you guys that have helped me get this started. I appreciate it.