1989GTATransAm

Thanks BadSS. That really helps to put things in perspective. Allen

OMINOUS_87

I actually emailed the Mag, Super Rod, to see if they could feed me the raw data from the dyno pulls. I wanted to do the same thing.

They repsonded and said they couldnt, all they got was the graphs.

After that I was like, well then fock it.

Nice of you to go the extra distance, and do it manually.

Grim Reaper

Nope, read the article again. The HSR had a 58mm TB, not a 52mm TB. I can tell you this right now, a 58mm TB on the MR would make a definite difference in the max HP.

They purposely sand-bagged the MR with the 52mm TB.

contactpatch

Perhaps some Feb. and April stories got mixed up
on the way to the printer.
.
The overall numbers seem difficult to believe.

Acceld Z

Just curious......how do you know it was done on purpose?

Grim Reaper

I personally think they should have ran each of the various intakes with whatever TB was optimal for a particular intake. Clearly the stock TPI system would have performed better with a 52mm TB as well.

But, after reading the article more carefully, (initially I just looked at the graphs) I think I can figure out what probably happened.

Initially, they planned to use a 350 @ 10:1, AFR 180s and a fairly mild cam. But they had engine problems so they swapped to a 383 with a far more aggressive cam.

I suspect they initially contacted the various companies and requested an intake for the 350 engine. TPIS probably saw the 350 specs and supplied a 52mm TB with their MR (to not kill bottom end TQ); which would be a proper sized TB IMO for that combo. But with the 383, the 52mm is a definite bottle neck on a MR.

Imagine what the results of this test would have been had the HSR (or Superram) only had a 52mm TB and the MR had a 58mm TB? I also think a lot more people would call "foul" and point that out as a reason why the HSR and Superram didn't make as much HP.

Instead, the intake that needed the most air got a restriction. Hell, they may as well tossed a Tornado in front of it too.

BadSS

No need to read it again,, I posted the correct T/B sizes in an earlier post. Just a brain fart, thanks for pointing it out - I've corrected it now.

I don't think they "purposely sand-bagged the MiniRam". I think if TPiS would have sent a 58mm T/B instead of a 52mm (or sent both), then they would have probably used a 58mm on the MiniRam. If you note, the TPiS T/B was used on the TPiS stuff, the 1,000 cfm Accel T/B on the SuperRam, and the 58mm Holley T/B on the StealthRam.

Anyway, you know as well as I do there is a few more HP between a 52 and 58mm T/B with the MiniRam over most of the power curve for this application. However, the main difference between the two has more to do with the runner lengths than the T/B used.

edit - I started on this post before seeing your last post. I'm sure you're right about them supplying the 52mm based on the 350 combination they originally intended to use.

86IROCNJ

I believe Glenn hit the nail on the head. That is what happened imo. At the time of printing they should have made it more clear. They stated the fact of the engine swap but they did not go into detail about when the parts arrived for testing and why they were used specifically, just that the parts used were the parts that were sent to them. I doubt it was done on purpose. The testing seemed really objective and did not favor one company to another. Besides, the companies alone show each other up in the pricing point of view. This magazine did not have to "sand-bag" TPIS for that one. You have comprable performance for far less with Holley and you have a smaller bank account with TPIS. When Holley releases the new intake for vortec heads I am seriously considering swapping my MRIII for one. This was not an option to me three years ago.

BadSS

I don't think this test was as much as crowning a winner as much as about showing the differences in power curves from the different intakes. You could get a similar curve from the MR compared to the StealthRam just by using a 58mm T/B, tightening the lobe spread of the cam and reducing the duration a little. Of course you swap the StealthRam on that combination and you'll see what you see here,,, an increase in midrange that more than makes up for the drop on the top end.

ChevelleFan

I'll agree that the point of the article really seemed to be to just show the different strengths/weaknesses of the individuals systems. There is no one, clear winner, because out there in Hot Rod Land, there isn't just one engine type.

Also, with the HSR having a 58mm throttle body -- look at the price of a Holley 52mm TB and a 58mm TB. At summit, it's $379 vs. $399. What would *you* buy? Personally, I'm happy they tested it the way they did. (I bought an HSR for my 406 and will use a 58mm)

I don't buy the argument that a 52mm will produce better low end torque. We're talking about a dry intake manifold, so velocity isn't nearly as important as it would be in a carb setup (ie-- you dont run a Dominator 4500 on a 350). We don't have to worry about atomization. Actually, I question whether velocity is important at all in a dry intake. Frankly, I dont know, and I probably don't care. *IF* there's a difference, I'm willing to bet it is minor.

-Dave

89 Iroc Z

BadSS,
Can you please add Arizona Speed & Marine siamesed runners to your graph?

BadSS

Sorry,,, Works will only let me do three at a time. Here is the TPiS LTR (with ported GM base), the ASM Semi-Siamesed Runners with the TPiS (Edelbrock) Base, and the SuperRam Uppers on the TPiS Base. (Based on the estimated numbers posted earlier).

Attached Images

long runner intakes.jpg (77.3 KB, 1389 views)

BadSS

Here is the Single Plane Holley 4bbl Intake, StealthRam, and the MiniRam. Again, based on the estimated numbers provided earlier.

Attached Images

short runner intakes.jpg (78.0 KB, 1349 views)

Black 91 Z28

From BadSS' numbers....

Attached Images

hp.gif (20.7 KB, 1335 views)

Black 91 Z28

Again from his numbers...


TQ

Attached Images

tq.gif (20.2 KB, 1352 views)

OMINOUS_87

Hey bro, email me the spreadsheet you used to put together the charts.

I got a couple other things I will generate from the data.

I am to lazt to enter the data myself, I knows its sad, but you have already done it.

I will generate average power numbers relative to powerband ranges and shift points based on common gearing scenarios.

Black 91 Z28

You have mail!

Grim Reaper

I will disagree and say the Holley Stealth Ram looks like the clear winner to me. Especially when you consider price. Then it's hands down, the Holley Stealth Ram.


Again, I will disagree. Velocity is an important factor. It is the reason some heads can generate so much more power than their flow numbers alone indicate. More importantly, installing a large TB on a small engine not only kills velocity, it also kills throttle response (something that is hard to measure on a dyno).

But, I will say that while a 52mm TB on the MR setup did choke it some at the top-en, I doubt it made more than 5% difference in power (25HP). Not enough to make it dull the shine of the HSR.

At this time, I would say that the only people how will be buying Minirams, will be people who find a good deal on a used one.

r3pp3r

I agree, I see no point in getting a miniram with HSR around for a fraction of the price.

__________________
UVA Car Club President and former thirdgen owner

Orr89RocZ

even used ones on ebay are 600-800 dollars.

still more than HSR with fuel rails/ line kit

Black 91 Z28

Just for a numbers strickly comparisson.

The HSR has a better average TQ and HP and more area under the curve for TQ and HP than the MR for the given RPM range.

86IROCNJ

What we are seeing is only a change in technology. Nothing more. 10yrs ago the MR was the hot item in aftermarket fuel injection many would say, but now it seems to be Holley's turn, if that is what you are looking for out of an aftermarket unit. Nothing to get all hot and bothered about, just a change in times. Just think, soon the LS1/GenIII engines will be old news and everyone with a swap might be considered as fools for doing so when the next big engine rolls out to put into these cars. It is a way of life, take it for what it is. Different strokes for different folks and right now people are going with Holley(for the most part when veiwing the public opinion on this site).

Grim Reaper

The one test they didn't do, that I wish they had, was test a carb on the Holley Single Plane manifold.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

I wonder if the early LS's and such are gonna still be getting attention 18 or so years later as TPI and SBC EFI setups do.

BruceEmbry

What the surprise here is that the TPI system is better thaen what some people will give it credit

My 82 Firebird sports a 350 TPI with the orginal 200C transmission and 2.73 rear end. No I don't race, but she runs very well.
Back in 2001, I had my Firebird on the interstate at ~130MPH and it was still accelerating. The tech was reading around 4500 RPM.

I now have a complete SLB exhast system with 3 inch CAT. I do not have posi, but can spin and smoke both rear wheels.

I currently in process of upgrading the susupension. Just added Sphon LCAs, already have Sphon LCA-RB, Panhard Bar, and SFCs. I also have Eiback pro springs, BMR STB, and Wonder bar. The only thing left to do is add rear sway bar. All other susupension componants are new.

ditchbangr

I have the mag and really thought the Big Tube/extrude hone stock parts would be a sleeper with all that torque. My buddy said that is the way he would build a engine, all that torque. But I also think it would be hard enough to get the HSR intaked engine to hook up let alone the TPIS/extrude hone intake.

What do you guys think? I'd rather get the car out of the hole and let the HP pull you away.

DeepSouth_454

I believe one issue with the Holley Stealth Ram most don't seem to mention is their inability to match up to aftermarket heads with bigger/larger runner ports. Most I hear of them being run with are 195cc heads.

Grim Reaper

Actually, it's the reverse. TPI is tough to hookup while HSR/MR are easier. The TPI has that "big peak" and it makes the tires break loose far easier. With the HSR/MR, you TQ is flatter and thus easier to control.

That is why guys with HSRs/MRs usually have higher stall converters and/or deeper gears.

Grim Reaper