91GTABird

Wouldnt be TGO without him

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o2b18

...It's 12:39, It's going great, I 've been working on it for less than an hour and I'm ready to drop new pump back in.
I came back to review. Got galvinized(?) sheet metal and steel rivets at Menards, will use black silicone to seal and compression fittings (Autozone) Should be done in time to mow yard : (

I did radius corners of opening to reduce possible stress cracks in sheet metal. Used a Dremel with cutting wheels.

Thanks,

Mark

TWICEtheRICE

Agreed. My old 86' Honda Accord had a factory access panel.

Ender

so, i'm going to install an access door in my trans am... and I was curious how you cut the fuel lines without it possibly blowing up... sawzall doesn't sound so safe... so, if anybody has any good ideas that'd be great
thanks

o2b18

Pick a cool day, or evening. Remove gas cap. I placed a small fan in car, blowing on lines, also placed the shop vac next to lines to vacume as I cut. Using a fine tooth hacksaw blade, cutting on backstroke, seem to work ok.

Tibo

Just use a brake line cutter. It has a blade that you spin around the line and it cuts it while leaving no metal particles.

I think it would be benificial if measurments were taken of where to cut the "access panel."

o2b18

I thought of that, but the fuel line is steel and hard to bend, then bend back again. See photos done by the guy that started this, I used his as a guide.

sam

I know it is an old post. Just wondering over something.

Is it not risky to cut the lines as metal pieces can end up in the lines then pumped to the injectors? I guess it will first got to the filter?


Also, i saw "myt busters" on discovery and they busted the myth about blowing up cars by shooting at the tank. THey wasted rounds and ronds of amo straight at a full tank. and nothing other then holes that drained the tank resulted.

vladicore

shooting bullets into gas tanks isnt that big a deal, pistol rounds are very weak im supprised if its anything smaller then a 9mm that it even went through a gas tank. I frequent rangemasters here in memphis frequently, when i took the level 1 traning course for my right to carry permit he showed the paperclips that hold up the paper targets can stop .45 caliber pistol rounds,
needless to say a good fuel filter would take any debri out, or do like i did and think ahead and disconnect it from the filer and let it run into a bucket to throw lit cigerette butts at or shoot at to try to catch fire whatever floots your boat.

sam

Well actually they had quite a bit of amo. not 9 mm for sure. They even used somethink like ak5 and bullets went through the one side of the car and out the other.

Anyway, thanks for the tip. Sure would make me feel better to do it that way when i eventually do change the pump as i suspect it could be but I want know till later today or tomorrow.

Thanks,

Sam

PneumaticTire

I just started this project on my 86 Z28. Sure was helpful to see where to actually cut the hoole, and get some tips on how to do it clean. Thanks for the post!

rgarcia63

Ratcheting tubing cutter.

You only need to use a coupling on the pressure line the rest can be hose coupled. See the picture I posted.

91GTABird

I had one. It wont fit between the stock lines. I had 3 different sizes at that. Thanks for the info though.

sqzbox

One thing I didn't see mentioned is useing a small screw driver and a vacuum to scratch around the locking ring before, during, and after you remove it to try and keep as much dirt as possible from falling into the tank. When I put mine in, I cut enough fuel line to slip over the metal lines that I could butt them up inside the hose and used two clamps on each end.

flaming-ford

[quote]Originally posted by vladicore
[b]shooting bullets into gas tanks isnt that big a deal, pistol rounds are very weak im supprised if its anything smaller then a 9mm that it even went through a gas tank. I frequent rangemasters here in memphis frequently, when i took the level 1 traning course for my right to carry permit he showed the paperclips that hold up the paper targets can stop .45 caliber pistol rounds.

Paper clips stopping lead rounds i could beleive, but, steel rounds don't get stopped so easily my dad has a ruger 45 we were shooting first day we moved in to my house at a old shed with targets on it, when we wen in the shed we found out it was full of bricks and we had many many many broken 1s. Peices of the steel jacketing of the bullet everywhere but, i'd definetly rather not get hit by 1.

Ps. The mythbusters your talking about used a 50caliber rifle i beleive. It went completely through the tank fuel and all out the other side.

O sorry back to topic hehe. Very nice install as the first 1, that definetly isn't a hack job...

Btw i'm pretty sure it would take someone like me whos never replaced a fuel pump in a camaro at least 1 good full day to do it the *right way*. I don't think it's all that bad at all but, thats my opinion.

JDud

Thanks for all the pics and replies gents, I have a new pump in hand and a car on a trailer that I was wondering how to get the new pump in...Guess I now have some directions!

CamaroMike

For goodness sakes guys. If you can't replace the pump the right way then why the heck don't you pay someone to do it for you? If someone can't afford to have the the fuel pump fixed, I question whether or not they can even afford to drive in the first place. Not trying to be a jerk but why destroy a perfectly good floor panel/car to save maybe 200-300 bucks, risk a fire/explosion by cutting steel lines, put passengers at risk by running 45+ PSI through a steel line without even a barb and all this over the EXHAUST. There is a reason GM put high pressure fittings on the fuel system! Changing the pump is no harder than droping the rear end and exhaust down. All one needs is jackstands and a intermediate tool set. If you don't have tools well i'm sorry but they pay for themselves by fixing your car. Not to mention all the other uses.

Again: I am not trying to flame anyone but I really don't understand this OK thought process with hacking up your fuel system.

__________________
84 Camaro (Best 60',Quarter Mile, MPH) (1.88, 12.91, 106.77)

ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

TheNuge876

If your going to cut the whole it might not be a bad idea to cut a round hole, this way there is no stress placed on an edge or corner, and helps to maintain the rigidity of the body.

Xophertony

actualy... both my 86 (took a 1st timer about 10 hrs) and my 88 (i gotta do it later today) have solid cat-back exhaust. as in not flanged. i wrestled for the better part of an hour to get the tank out around the exhaust. ended up causing a leak in my fuel neck from all the manhandling of the tank to get it back in. so i would say in adition to a floor jack and a socket set and a few screwdrivers the average joe also needs a sawsal to hack there exhaust off. and then a good wealder to put it back on. ESPECIALY if you have stock exhasut... that stuff is huge.

i am going to cut the exhaust off of my 88 GTA and have a flange put in it by the exhaust shop when they weld it all back in. so future fuel pump jobs (in 4 months ) will be better.

i would cut my unibody like this guy did... but that sending unit is $500 from GM... no way i am cutting that. so i will be doing it "the right way" in the freezing cold oregon rain today or tomorow.

also, just for the record.. alot car manufacturers puts an access hatch in. nissan 240sx... access hatch on the rear hump. BMW in the 80s... access hatch behind the rear seat.

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1986 base BIRD LB8_2.8L_V6 17.4@76MPH. mods:
4th-gen console, 2002 cavalier front seats, 140MPH speedo, completly de-cluttered engine bay, lots of "free" mods. complete front suspension and stearing rebuild. Custom Cold Air Intake.

1988 Trans Am GTA 5.7L TPI L98 14.3@97MPH. mods:
base model spoiler, 4th gen console, 4th gen charcol leather seats, free mods, 89+ rear disc brakes, SLP shorty headers and Y-pipe, full 3" hooker catback, WCT-5 trannsmission, centerforce dual friction clutch. COMING SOON: 4th gen doorhandles, custom transsmisssion crossmember, SFCs, 98+ front brakes.

jim91gta

What brand were the first 2 pumps that went bad? which FP did you go with this time?

91GTABird

The first was stock im assuming. The second one was Carter and had a lifetime warranty, so i just swapped it. If it happens again im going with something more reputable.

sqzbox

You know, I would be inclined to drop the tank on my car too if it was TPI given the higher operating pressure. Being my TBI only has 13 lbs from the pump, I wasn't that concerned about bursting any fuel lines and blowing myself up! That's why they make fuel hose that can take more pressure than 13lbs. I had a dodge That I repaired with high pressure rubber fuel line on the fuel rail that lasted 5 of the last 8 yrs. that I owned it and for 75K miles I never had a problem!

superNOScamaro

I am currently doing this project on my third gen also. I was going to use plexiglass insted of sheet metal so you are able to see your lines and check for leaks and make sure your clamps stay where you put them. i don't know yet how i am going to hold it down but i am going to seal it with weather stripping.

sqzbox

I've used plexiglass for certain projects and have found that useing a frame or retainers 3 times larger than the holes your drilling will help it last longer. Plexiglass is rather fragile in some applications, especially in high and low temprature variations.
It will eventually crack around any holes that you counter-sink and use beveled screws or straight holes and flat head screws.
If you can find plexiglass in a thickness larger than 1/4 in. it will help. If not, try to fabricate a frame to put it in and drill holes in the frame and not the glass itself. One idea I've been thinking about is a frame thats flat on the surface and then vertical through the access hole with the same dimentions as the hole for a tight fit. A good insulating foam strip around the edges under the carpet, then the carpet, then the frame, will allow you to access/view the tank without ever having to remove the interior panels or carpet again. Anyone that has done the access hole before knows that removing the panels and peeling the carpet back and then having to replace it all again is half the job.
Besides, you can look down the hole any time and check the hoses and fittings without all that hassle! and it will look like a pro. job that others will want to do.

superNOScamaro

I forgot to mention that i was doing this in a convertible. with less area than a t-top car.Anyways I just finished cutting the fuel lines and put them back together. I am thinking about getting some nut plates, install them with rivets and hold the plexiglass down with some button head screws with washers. I use a lot of these working on aircraft so I am sure i can get my hands on some. the area is not a place that flexes a lot and the plexiglass is 1/4". As long as every corner or hole that is drilled is cleaned up and have a radius that will be stronger than a square peice with holes all chewed up, and you need to keep the screws at least one and a half times the diameter of the screw away from the edge. I will post some pics when I am done with this and if it doesn't work out i'll use a peice of sheet metal.

Time

BUMP

for someone who's looking for this info

V6sucker

I just laugh at all these people that call cutting a propper panel and everything a 'Hack job'.

Sorry I did one of these "your way" and it took about 3 days. It was middle of summer, 99+ 96+% humidity. Think I will ever do it again? a big 'Hell no' comes to my mind. I could only work maybe 15-20 minutes at a time because I felt like I was gonna pass out. I also managed to lose about 13 Lbs in those three days.

My current 89 GTA started as a no spark, but as I solved that the fuel pump died as well. Yeah here comes the jig saw and panel cause there is no way I am going through that hell again. Hell today alone the heat index was over 105... and it is only gonna get hotter until we get some very much needed rain.

CamaroMike

Lazy is as lazy does.

V6sucker

there is a difference between being lazy and having to have the car back up ASAP. And not wanting to waste a day or two doing it the 'GM' way.

Also, I have talked to several dealer techs... you know what they do? panel anyone? Yeah a GM oversight does not mean I will do more work just so it will make you happy.

If you want to come do it, please feel free... otherwise it's not your car so shuadathehellup.

91GTABird

They dont understand that.

CamaroMike

Having been an automechanic for 10 years and having worked at a GM Dealership, I am confident that any self-respecting technician would not cut the floor. There is NO safe high pressure repair for cuting EFI steel fuel lines above the F-body tank. I mean really, the exhaust is just underneath the gas tank. Besides, if GM really thought an access hole was necessary don't you think it might have been incorproated in the 10 years of updates to the F-body.

Obviously, some individuals have no understanding of how much pressure is in the fuel system or what a proper repair is otherwise one would take 1-2 hours to remove the tank. I am truly sorry GM assembled the car well enough the first time but not when it needs fixing. So if the transmission needs work should I cut out the floor pan for access, or better yet if my spark plugs need to be changed should I cut holes in my fenderwell. LOL you guys rock.

91B2L

If it makes the job easier...............yes

CamaroMike

Thank you for defining the difference between a hobbyist and a professional.

V6sucker

Ok...
A. I talked to no less than 11 Technicians spanning 6 local GM dealerships. Out of those 6 dealerships 11 had done a fuel pump in a 3rd gen f bod. They all asked the service manager, and the manager told them to cut an access panel.
As far as GM not thinking an access door was needed... have you ever meet an american motor engineer that made a vehicle EASIER to work on intentionally? That access door would mean that they would have to spend more money to make the car.
WHile just about every single foreign car I have ever worked on or owned has either had one of the following... an access door, or the pump is accessable.

B. I know how much fuel pressure there is. 45 psi. There is as much fuel pressure as I allow my regulator to flow. And has been said many times, a @ssinine deisgn does not mean I am going to spend a day or two dropping/replacing the tank. I keep hearing all you people claim 1-2 hours... Yeah I have yet to see it.

the rest of you comparisons are @assinine about like you are...

It is NOT YOUR car, you have ABOSOLUTELY -0- say in how I repair MY car. And like I already said, if you want to come do your way, by all means be my guest.

And yes unless I am getting paid for doing a repair, I am gonna do it MY way. If that ofends you, well... I could really care less.

CamaroMike

Somebodys taking things personal.

madmax

If it takes you 3 days to swap out a fuel pump, you need to find a different line of work like basket weaving. Even the first time I changed mine it only took me 4 hours.

I've only seen 2 acceptable panels around. The rest are total hackjobs with silicone, duct tape, screws protruding into the fuel tank area, road signs, panel bent back into place, low pressure hose, worm clamps on straight cut lines, etc etc. Thats why I will constantly call it a hack job, 95% of the time IT IS. If someone wants to do it right, thats an entirely different subject. The rest, I dont really want to be in that fireball when the car is in an accident and one of those hackjob items fails and leaks fuel all over the place.

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Hi.

V6sucker

1. it took me three days working maybe 15-20 minutes at a time cause it was so fraking hot.

2. When I was going to do my panel, I was going to do a very nice 8X12" section panel. Body putty to seal and rivits every 2" and socketless S/S braid hose.

But when I pulled back the carpet today I found yet another present from the previous owner...
Yes a total and complete hack job. Not a single straight cut, some cuts going down the back seat panel, bent and straightened sheetmetal... After seeing some of the other things I have seen he has done going through this car, it was not a surprise to see a panel cut out. But one done so completely piss poor...
----------
somebody inserting their opinion when it is not being asked for

Time

Well, I guess to each his own.

I myself agree that cutting around fuel lines is a big no-no. And I now wish I had not have cut a hole in mine. But at the time I couldnt afford or have the time do do the right way. I was careful and scared at the same time. The only cutting on the fuel lines I did were just at the first bend at the very top of the tank where it leads from the sending unit and makes that first turn towards the drivers side.
You sometimes wonder if GM architecs design cars the way they do and purposely make certain items/areas difficult to reach or work on or replace just so you would have to pay the GM dealership to fix her for you.
Can't help but think about it. But then again, not everything can have easy access.

AmorgetRS

My 88 TA had an access panel cut for the fuel pump. It also had a huge dent behind the rear seats from the rear area flexing and cracks leading from the corners of the access hole. I saw that, welded a plate in and swore that I would never ever cut an access hole for my fuel pump after I saw the damage it did to the car in the long term.

V6sucker

Honestly,
what would it have been to create a door/panel there?
to move the hard line connections there?
to have the electrical connector there for the sender/pump instead of halfway down that rear panel?

About 5 minutes of engineering time and 75 cents.
Like I said before, every foriegn car I have worked on has had an access door (if the pump was in tank) or the car was designed with a real access area or used an inline pump.
I have not seen an american car company follow suit on any of the cars I have worked on.


Now as far as fixing the privious owners hack up, I plan on welding on a panel to fix the panel behind the rear seats. Then on the top cut some square lines round the corners and make a real panel repair and rivit it in with real body putty to seal.
On the hard lines, I will either use socketless hose, or make a hard line compression connection.

I took some pics and will post them up later on what this jack@ss did. I was in no way involved in doing that, I just need to clean it up...

1993formulav8

Make sure when you weld you get it good and hot so as to blow yourself up!!!

Nature seems to have a way with ridding the world of idiots!!!!

What happens when your cutting tool goes to deep and into your fuel tank, well you have to drop the fuel tank and replace it thats what happens cause you'll never get it to stop leaking.

AmorgetRS

Dude, you can just weld it if you cut it, no biggy!












Disclaimer - NEVER EVER FREAKIN WELD ON A GAS TANK

V6sucker

these comments from a noob...
sorry but I have been working on cars probly longer than you have been alive. If it has not been cars it has been USN jets... A-6 F/A-18 A/B/C/D F-14 A/B/C/D

what happens when a cutting tool goes too deep? what the hell do you think I was gonna use? ever hear of tin snips? that is all that is needed for that purpose.
But now however I need to not only neec to replace the pump byt also fix the eff ups of previous owner.

1993formulav8

not a noob, I just dont post here often, and I have done the fuel pump swap several times. Even after hearing about the "access panel" I have never once thought about doing it that way. I believe in doing things right the first time.


oh and i forgot , but that would make you really fricken old since you dont know how old I am.

CamaroMike

There is obviously a lack of understanding of basic manufacture here. To "create" an access panel, the entire die that forms the hatch pan would have to be remade or an entirely new process would have to be introduced to cut the old stampings and make a cover. This would be literally millions of dollars spent for a car that is budget oriented from GM's perspective. I agree there are better ideas out there but don't loose sight that GM is a business. If the current process works and has little issues under warranty why would GM change. In fact, you would most likely do the same if you had a business making cars.

Furthurmore, keep in mind to compare apples to apples when discussing fuel pump access. GM designed this car in the fuel crunch of the 70's when costs were a huge concern. Try not to compare a 90's import to a 70's designed F-body. I also struggle to think of a high volume 80's import that wasn't carb or low pressure TBI with external fuel pumps.

V6sucker

No basic lack of manufacture understanding...
You instead of designing the die one way you do it this way. No big change over anything. You engineer the thing right the first time so these types of problems are avoided.

Actually from the people I have talked to at dealers about this, it was a very big issue. As with this 'fuel crunch' people filled up less meaning the pump was covered less and was more prone to overheat and fail.

I am not comparing apples to oranges, I am making a direct comparison. The imports of the same era (and even today) are simply better designed. Early mid 80's there were a bunch of imports running multi port. Mitsu was big into it. I had an 84/85 that was MPI. I could peel back the carpet of the back and see an access panel to get to the pump.
I could peel back the carpet of a golf and do/see the same thing.

The easiest american made car fuel pump to get to has been the mechanical carb pumps. anything else your spending hours to do something that should only be a 20-30 minute job.

GuitarJunki17

I just want to point out and address the level of immaturity I have seen so far in this thread.


Number one:

This is a very information saturated, mature, and respectable forum. There's really no need for quarreling of the least. If you would have done something differently, then leave it to yourself. The job has been done, leave it at that.

Two:

91GTABird stated clearly in the first post of this thread:

So obviously, your downplaying and sarcastic input is not welcome here in the least.


Three:

It is the man's car. It is not your car. He is in a circumstance where he is not able to fiddle with getting the axle off the car and pulling the tank. If you actually followed the thread you would have seen this clearly:

I too, live in an apartment complex, and since I am a student at 19 years old, I live off of a very small paycheck, enough for gas, school, food, and a little fun on the weekends. I don't have a garage where I can take my car to and neither does he. If his apartments are anything like mine, they will give him complete hell for working on his car in the open parking lot like that. When I had my car up on jackstands for a day to do the shift kit, I had management all over my arse for creating an "eyesore". Apparently it looked bad to potential renters...maybe white trash-esque to those who don't understand the car thing. Bottomline, I see where he is coming from, and we, as well as others like us don't have the privelage of working behind the closed doors of our own garage, and take our good old time.


Four:

It's been stated already that this is a "weekend warrior", not a show car. This job was done very nicely and safely, and will relieve headaches in the future when these cheap friggin pumps decide to go out again. We all know that they generally won't see a double didget year.

Five:

Cutting a small hole like that will not "cause structural weakness" or anything of the such that has been claimed before. When have you heard of someone's car breaking in half while driving down the road as a result of cutting a friggin access panel for the fuel pump? When have you heard of a car that had been mangled in an accident considerably more because of a small access hole that was cut into the trunk floor? A sheetmetal plate has been riveted in place anyhow, restoring most, if not all, of the "structural integrity" of the floor in that area.





Again, it is not your car, it is not your work, and you don't have to drive in it. Your sarcastic and opinionated comments are just becoming an eyesore, so just do everyone a favor and cram it.





...etc, lol

AmorgetRS

I'll will post pictures of this no "loss" in structural integrity that you claim....

AmorgetRS

Here ya go...

Notice the way the metal is totally bent, it came right off the driver side corner of the fuel pump access hole.

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JB97C5

I would have gone with AN fittings, not that anyone asked. 91GTABird, I really like the idea of an easy access panel. Dropping the fuel tank is such a PITA.