CamaroMike

I guess this thread has deteriorated to the point of either you deal with what GM gave you and preserve the vehilces original integrity or you settle for a less than professional job.

Sorry so many people feel the wrong way is correct. Then again, I would not have as much respect for those taking the time to drop the tank if it was easy.

As I stated before, taking the easy way when it results in permanent damage is a second rate job. That's what differentiates a pro from a hobbyist.

Congratulations to those who strive for excellence. Keep on hackin away hobbyists.

I'm out.

sqzbox

One would think that GM would have at least, installed a fuel tank drain plug
to ease the process of dropping the tank. What is the reason for putting the electric fuel pump inside the tank in the first place? Answer; A lot of factory and dealership mechanics (or as their called today auto tech's) are eating steak now instead of hamburger!
30 yrs. ago, mechanics were looked down on as a profesional group and were just greasy guy's with black fingernails. today, everyone has a higher opinion of an auto tech. because todays cars are so much more advanced in tech. that a driveway mechanic can't handle powertrain diagnosis the first time and get it right. That is why we have web sites like this, to help figure out what's wrong and hope that someone else has already fixed the problem.
Who would have thought that back in 76 pontiac would have built a V-6 at 260 hp? run 14 sec. 1/4 mi and still get almost 30 mpg. on the hwy?
NOT ME!

GuitarJunki17

iTrader: (1)

I still think every mechanic in my area that I have dealt with is a fat, swindling, scumbag. Either that or they are 23 year old eff ups that dropped out of my high school, and take cars around on a joyride when they are done their work.

Before I was this educated about cars, I had to do alot of work to my Chrysler, and I got raped anywhere I went for service. Not to mention everytime I got the car back, it had a suspicious new scratch in it...

I took my IROC to get the new tires mounted and balanced about 5 months ago and picked the car up and IMMEDIATELY noticed that there was a jagged scratch about 3" long on the passenger side door. All the mechanics could do was say "that was already there". Yeah, it's my car, I think I'd know what was there and what wasnt. But there was absolutely nothing I could do. I didn't have a before picture of the car that was taken immediately before I gave it to them. But you could believe that I was there 30 minutes before they told me to pick up the car to ensure noone took it for a "test drive".

V6sucker

it has been stated your attitude is was not asked for and certainly not welcome...

Like I said before, what I was going to do or not do is mute now. The previous owned effed that whole area up BAD.

And by the way, I can be sure this car has been like this for some time, and has no "shell damage" for having been hacked up like that. The panel is actually pretty 'straight' just needs patch panels to reinforce.

bnoble

I did the access door. Took a little longer than pulling the tank, but now I can change my fuel pump with little more than a screwdriver.

The hardest part about changing a fuel pump now is putting the carpet back in right.

V6sucker

this is what I found when I pulled the carpet back on mine...
I reieterate I DID NOT DO THIS!
But I do get to fix it...
and this is not even showing the cuts he did down the back side panel...

and what did the brainiac use to seal it with? a small section of 1/4 blue foam insulation... Yes I call jobs done like this HACK jobs... I was NOT going to do this, just a nice access panel like is pic'ed above and what 91 bird did.

Red Devil

Longer than doing it the 'correct' way... I wonder how many years I've been saying that...

IROCZZ3

I would be slightly pissed if I had a mint Turbo TA or Firehawk and took it to a dealer to get the pump changed and they hacked up my car.

If a dealership technician did that to any car they should be fired, unless it's an alternative procedure outlined in the service manual.....but I highly doubt it. And if they did do it chances are it'll look like most of the hack jobs you see here at TGO.

I'm not totally against an access panel as long as it's done CORRECT. But on a rare 3rd gen like a TTA or Firehawk you just don't do that.

91GTABird

GuitarJunkie17 seems to be one of the very few that actually paid attention to the begging of the thread. You know, the text.

And talking about a hack. What the he11 is this?

91GTABird

Well, to date there is none. Lots and Lots of hard launches and many and i mean many hard and tight twisties.

But i will update when i do see or show signs of structual problems or leakage.

Now i do have a new home and a driveway that i can do work in so the next job wont be a "hack"....and if it is, it sure as hell wont EVER be posted, written, highlighted, explained or even mentioned on Thirdgen.org.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Wow, now THAT is just disgusting...

GuitarJunki17

iTrader: (1)

That's a rear shock...or strut, or whatever the heck. Looks like it might be a layer of glue to hold the carpet down? I don't see why someone would cut up a section of the trunk to access it when all you need is two wrenches to get that top nut off




If doing the access door the right way by cutting nicely with tin snips and sealing it back up with sheet metal, sealant and rivets is a "hack job" then what would you call the job done in the picture that V6Sucker posted?

91GTABird

I was being a smarta$$ about the shock pic. The point being is look at how things were done from the factory. It appears to me that its a layered peice and some glue for the the upper shock mount. Why did they do it like that? Lets break it down.

1)They didnt have the money to do a better job
2)It would have taken more time then they had
3)Labor was to high at the time to take the time to do a better job

Hmm. That sounds awfully alot like some of the problems that these people who have done the FP access had. Everyone does everything for a reason. Maybe its not the right reason, maybe its not the best reason. But there is a reason and im sure if people had the ability, they would do these things for the right reason if they were capable.

If i had the funds, tools or location at that time era, i WOULD NOT have been using the cheapo Carter FP that i had. I would have used a better pump and i would basically have a faster car. But i dont b/c im currently not capable of a faster car. Just like i wasnt capable of paying someone to do it RIGHT or doing it myself right.

Obviously some people are down sometimes and just need alittle lift. Maybe alift as in a hydraulic lift or maybe a lift as in kind words or a self esteem lift. But steady hounding and ******* people to the point were they feel like a$$ over something so minute doesnt help. Im prett sure some guys already feel bad about having to cut their car that they so belove in the first place. I know i did. But it just doesnt help or make a point beating them down about it. Like previously posted before, I have respect for the people that have done it the correct way and wish i could have. But its not always feasible and NOT EVERYONE does it as a shortcut or because they are too lazy.
----------
And to add. Im very gratefull and thankfull for everyone that may or may not have approved it but continued the support me and others and contributed the needed or missing information. You people know who you are.


Thanks

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This honestly depends on the owners situation though, and from what I can see after browsing through this thread, he did a wonderful job... and the intent to "hack" is clearly not prevalent, at all.

I will say this though. If one doesn't have the time, or tools, or the facility, to drop the tank... I would initially consider the installation of a fuel cell, along with an external fuel pump. It'll help get you back on the road (even if it's just temporary), without sacrificing the vehicle...

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

The rear shock mounts are not a good design. I know of several people that have ripped the "cup" out of that rear shock. I welded mine when I was fixing the hole over my gas tank for that exact reason.

V6Suckers car was a total udder complete hack job, the better versions are questionable modifications. There is also a lot of room between the two...

Kat

iTrader: (4)

Shock mount.. lol

More than likely that part is made out of a thicker metal than the rest of the floors due to the loads that are expressed on to it. Also to form that part, along with the rest of the trunk/hatch area floor board would be a PITA cause of it's design. Also the "glue" that is arround it, isn't "glue". It is seam sealer. Since that part is only spot welded in there are gaps in the metal that could possilby let air and water in. So fromthe factory, like most of the seams in the car, they put sealer over it.

IceManRS305

iTrader: (-1)

this SHOULD be considered the correct way to replace a fuel pump.... what is the cons of doing it this way??? and now if your pump fails.... u can change it in minutes instead of pulling out 1/2 of your cars parts....also, why would you cover it up?? no reason to, and this way u can check for leaks, i gaurentee it does NOT mess with structural integrity at ALL ITS A FREAKING TRUNK hahaha


to the creator of this thread

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Dude, have you not read the thread? Did you not look at the pictures?

Drac0nic

Personally I wouldn't be afraid of rubber hose and clamps, hell GM manufactured millions of astro/safari vans with a good foot of hose between the hard lines at the fuel tanks. While the early generation ones were low pressure, the CPI systems ran higher pressure then a stock port injection system.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

i guess i'm thankful i had a carb'd car with no electric fuel pump, so my floor above the gas tank is perfect, i converted to tpi, guess what i did? i pulled the gas tank installed a tpi pickup with a new fuel pump, not once did i think about cutting the floor of my car up, besides.....how often are you going to change fuel pumps? maybe its me, my camaro isnt a daily driver so if the pump goes i put it in the garage and take the gas tank out. not grab sheet metal cutters.

JDud

OK guys, I hope not to re-kindle the debate but help me make up my mind on which way to go about this. I have an 86 IROC that I put a 383 LT4 into and am now looking at putting in a new pump. Obviously I am not concerned about keeping it original.
I wouldn't mind taking the back end apart but have several questions.

1) How critical is the alignment of all the suspension components back there?
2) How much of a pain in the _ss is it going to be to remove all those 20 year old rusty connections to drop the rear end? (Is that really any easier than cutting an access plate?)
3) Anything else I am not thinking of that I should with the back end?

I am not against putting in an access door as that would eliminate my worrying about jacking the car up high enough to take the back end out, pushing/pulling on rusted nuts/bolts while under a car on jack stands (I never have gotten comfortable with that), and no alignment problems.

CamaroMike

Not to flame anyone but if you can install a LT4 383 then is it really a stretch to just drop the rear end?

Don't go down the path of hack and slash. No matter how nice it "looks".

JDud

Thanks for the input but you didn't answer any of the questions...

As posted above:
1) How critical is the alignment of all the suspension components back there?
2) How much of a pain in the _ss is it going to be to remove all those 20 year old rusty connections to drop the rear end? (Is that really any easier than cutting an access plate?)
3) Anything else I am not thinking of that I should with the back end?

91GTABird

To keep your dignity keep from "hacking" anything.

1) Its important, but you not going to have to adjust anything when putting it all back together. Its should go back together just the way it came apart. WD-40

2)again.....WD-40. Ive had a pain several time dealing with them (rear parts) but never came across something i couldnt overcome. Last run around i had to saw-zall the shock mounting bolt off b/c of rust. But it was overcome.

3) ??? Never had to completley remove it.

But what does it matter on what i say? After all i started the thread.

Red Devil

Y'know, I was thinkning of this thread a few weeks back. I had a GMC suburban in the middle of the woods with a full 40+ gallons of gas in it, have the fuel pump go out on me (not only that but the harness inside the tank up and fried as well, it's so common in fact that there are replacement harnesses in stock at the parts stores ). This same hack (generally) is done to these things as well. Know what I did?

I got dirty, manhandled the full damn tank and did it right. STILL would have probably taken me longer to do an access door right.

As for how an access door should be done when none is designed from the factory? Go find a few racecars and look. Ther is, almost always, a sandwiched or welded in trim ring with a mounted door. That's doing it right, imnsho anyway.

sqzbox

I believe that if you have to ask all those questions, You don't have the ability to fabricate a profesional access door. If I were you, I would go ahead and do the job by droping the tank. The only way to create an access door right, Is to cut the hole with the tank removed. When you cut the hole, you round off the corners so the sheet metal won't have a chance to crack and run. While you have the tank out you can install line fittings with ferrel's in an area that can be accessed from above. Before you replace the tank, you can fabricate a collar to fit the hole and install the collar after you replace the carpet so when you mount the door the pump can be accessed in the future without having to pull the carpet up. Putting a fancy "access door" inscribed door under the carpet accomplishes nothing eccept for the owner that know's it's there! If I saw a pro job like that in a 3rd gen car, it would'nt bother me a bit when buying it. But a hack job under the carpet would!
The only reason people cut an access door is their in a hurry because of weather, or they need the car fixed in a hurry because it's their daily driver and they don't have the time to to drop the tank.
As far as engineer's go, everything they know is taught to them in school. When they get a job, they think they know it all and have a closed mind to suggestion for another way that will work. When they think about it afterwards, they submitt the suggestion and take credit for it! I've got 5 azz holes at work like that, and I've learned that the only time I suggest anything to them is when it benifit's my job by making it easier!
If you don't believe me, answer this, "who know's more on a subject" someone who has done it for 30 yrs? or someone that has 4 yrs. learning how? Let me state this, If engineer's know so much, how come they have recall's of thousands of car's every year?

CamaroMike

Hey Squeegee.

If you know so much more than engineers why don't you start your own car company and make a better product? Better yet, share some of your suggestions with the engineers. I mean after all, engineers ONLY have to work around EVERYONES constraints, especially money.

BTW, the only reason you have for knowing so much about a product is because some "dumb engnineer" figured out the hard problems and sacrificed some small issues for nothing more than expense or time. If Camaros were made like a Rolls Royce then you wouldn't even have one and most likely you would bitch about how Camaro's are overbuilt and so d@mn expensive.

Pick a poison! Do you want cheap and fast or expensive and fast.

Installers complain but engineers find and implement solutions!

sqzbox

I'm guessing your an engineer or one in training. I'm not bashing all but the one's like 25 to 35 get under my skin mainly because of their attitude. The monitary restrictions that you say they are bound by cost more in the long run from re-call's and re-work to make it right. Lets say an engineer is an army captian with no combat experiance, and a sargent who has been through 2 wars questions his orders to charge a machine gun emplacment when they have artillary and air support at hand, want's to now why the captian is so willing to sacrifice additional lives? It's called team work. A good captian is willing to listen and take the sargent's advice knowing his experiance and learn from that for the future. The enginneer's that I work with have closed minds and believe that they know best and are afriad to make a sound decision on the task for fear from making a decision that they think that MIGHT get them in trouble with the higher-ups! Not all engineer's are like that but most of them where I work are. Fortuatly I have a trump card called Quality Control who is more concerned with the long term ramifications of an error than the engineer's are! I work at a plastics termoforming company in the shipping dept. after 25 year's as an over the road truck driver and several year's prior to that in supply and logistics including the US military with a combat tour in viet nam as an airial gunner on a helicopter where I learned that if you don't learn and addapt, it cost's lives and money if not done right the first time. Sorry if I spun your bearings camaro mike but I've earned my opinion even if you don't egree. BUT, I will always listen to your opinion also and will change if you can convince me otherwise because I have an open mind when it comes to change! That's why I'm a drag racin', truck drivin, freight shippin' BBQin', guitar playin', SOB with a home computer! I just bought a 76 3/4 ton 4x4 with a 350 4 bolt and 1 ton dualie rear packin' 4:10's and no damn computer to tinker with. My goal,
show up the damn Jeepster's how to drive in the mud ! and, I will. No syntetic testosterone required! Tell me, is there anything that I said to the man in my last post on how to do the job right that wasn't the best way to fabricate an access hole?

SHIFFS

Im thinking of shoe-gooing a toilit seat over the acess hole to save time on those long trips

ill post pics of my progress through out the week

~JaSoN

maverick9030

BUMPITY BUMP BUMP BUMP...oh yeah

CamaroMike

Jackass

maverick9030

WoW Nice guy...Senior Members are soooo cool

TPI

I just wanted to say nice work 91GTABird !!

When you take the time to do it right, it looks outstanding.

Those cuts were very clean!! You could easily put an access
door there in your spare time, and do the hardline work later on.

Other than the rubber hose, I liked the way it came out..

Excellent work!

GuitarJunki17

iTrader: (1)

So are members who bump threads for senseless reasons without contributing to the thread

TPI

Id cut him a bit of slack, hes been over at the other forum
asking about the best way to go about this.

For the sense of not having two threads at the same time,
and in different locations.. Id let him key in on the information.

91GTABird did a fantastic job, So all in all it wasnt senseless
to 'bump' the thread, he shoulda just asked a question instead

CamaroMike

If a 5 post member has the knowledge of a "bump" and does so without asking a question then I stand by my original assesment. Infraction Or Not.

GuitarJunki17

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I have been arguing and disagreeing with Mike here for this whole thread, but I think this is something we can agree on.

(Still think 91GTA did a nice job on this though )

xlwhellraiser

iTrader: (1)

ACCESS HOLE IS NOT A HACK JOB! Unless really just hacked at it. With right preparations, just how the original poster did it, this should be considered a MOD.

You can't argue that even when designing a car there is some ommited factors just because the manufacturer has to make money.

Today, however, the cars proud themselves on longevity unlike the 80's and f-body line in general, that we have to take any design with a grain of salt.

Many newer cars come with access panels for the fuel pump. ****, even the vette has it (knuckle buster, but its there). The fact is, that its a HOLE. Its going to be a hole no matter what you say.
The weakening of the rear panel is arguable statement. I belive there is some merit to it, but its nothing major, as many people have already supported that.

Many people did the access door, and they have aboslutely not problems with flexing, even under the most demanding circumstances. Still, we argue about it.

Sometimes you have to change the design of something and in most cases its called modding. However, for this specific thing its called Hacking, and all of a sudden we are challenged as engineers. There are comments that we should not try to change what engineers designed, in which case putting headers, or doing a dual exhaust would be a Hack job.

Please. If you don't have anything nice to say, just keep away from this thread. I am sick and tired of thumbing through these threads and reading philosophic comments from members who could be called jelous, because they actually droped the tank.

I belive this is informative, so please, stay off if you think this is a hack.

Now, just to let everyone know, I droped the tank to change my FP. Will I do it again. NO.

I would like more pics of the access holes covered up. I would like to know what the best way to cover it would be.

Thanks.

TPI

Please excuse my misjudgement!! hahaha

As for the picture requests of a access door panel, I
installed one.. Ill try to get some pics tonight ,If I have
the time.

Use you imagination, hinges, sheet metal screws, rivets..etc
whatever you heart desires to use on the panel door.

I used hinges, The panel looks like it is suppose to
be there .. It doesnt looked hacked whatsoever.

Again, I didnt cut a hole in my car.. the previous owner
did, But he did a exceptional job, so I continued with the
modification.

maverick9030

Forgive me for bumping a dead thread.....I have a apparently received a "Infraction" for finding this article on Yahoo, and clueless to where is is located in the forums..i bumped it to find with quickness, and in my excitement i put BUmpity Bump Bump...Now with my newly bought Camaro and this pretty cool website...I have been called a "JackAss" and am getting pulled over by the Nerd Police for insulting you well refined people by bumping a "Dead" thread. No one else helped me anywhere I asked for this ...so I helped myself. Forgive my newness and ill be in the dark corner grinding away at my now well plotted target for fuel pump access.......Please pardon this interuption....We now take you back to your regularly scheduled programming.

rgarcia63

I just got around to firing up my Camaro, other things have kept me from using it since the new year. Last night I tried, but it didn't prime, so if it is the fuel pump, I won't have to drop the tank this time around.

gta5892

alright fellas. lol I have read all these posts and still am not to sure how to cut the fuel lines. The safest and easyest way.

Jay

iTrader: (2)

Tubing cutter.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

I will be doing this this weekend. I don't have the time to go the route of pulling the tank so I will be cutting an acess panel in the floorboard. I have all of the necessary tools to go either path but the acess panel sounds quicker and easier. I have to get the car running be Monday but can't get the pump till I get payed at the end of the week. When I cut the panel I'll use tin snips and round the corners out to pup less stress on that area. For the fuel lines is using one of those hacksaw blade hand tools fine. I have a sawzaw but don't want to risk spark. I will temporarily connect the fuel lines with rubbber lines. What kind of connectors are the best to use and how strong of a line should I look for or even what is the right stuff called? What else should I get with the pump (gaskets, ect)? For the panel I have sheet aluminum from a road sign if that is OK. I can get thicker stuff. I just want to know what is sufficient. I will seal it up with RTV and use rivets to secure it in place.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

ttt

jay_d

most of you call them "hack jobs" I personaly think that GM did the hack job by making the tank such a bitch to get out.... So lets get it all out in the open......Unless you car is bone stock from the factory, you have a hack job according to your standards.....Does that make anyone who disagrees with making something better a hack artist? It would honestly be like me flaming someone for a wilwood brake conversion............If you cant see it my way by now you are clearly a jack a$$ and shouldnt be under the hood of any car

just my

jamesbob02

We're not all like that. Some of us actually realize that theres much to be learned from the experienced guys, whether the experienced guy has a degree or not. Regardless, we still have to follow orders, just like everyone else, whether we like it or not. An inferior design is not necessarily against engineering ethics if it's safe, and management will pick it every time if it costs less and doesn't make a difference.

From a design perspective, leaving the door out was an oversight, plain and simple. That's easy to do when you have to pump out a new and (innovative?) product every year - you're not necessarily concerned about facilitating easier repair. There are many ways to add an access door without compromising the structural (including torsional) stability of the region, as evidenced in the many cars that do have them.

As far as "hack job / not a hack job" goes, IMHO unless your car is bone stock you really don't have an argument. Yes, the job could be done poorly, but properly done it's an improvement on the design of the car, much like lower LCA brackets and such.

Red Devil

Hell I'll say it again. To do the access panel PROPERLY it will take you significantly longer than if you just did it the way intended. Unless you plan on swapping pumps a lot, it's not worth it.

I also now equate this to cutting a hole in the hood and putting a cap on it to check your oil. Maybe people will start cutting holes in their firewalls to get to the heater cores, or even a panel on the inside to access the fuel filter?

Consider this in the argument, of all those who think they've done it right, how many have you seen with 4 sheet metal screws holding the folded panel back down? Regular rubber fuel line clamped to strait cut metal line? Pick your favorite idiocy. How many have you seen done right as compared to hacked? There is the answer to your debate.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

If you think cutting any holes is a hack job you oughta head to a dragstrip sometime and see what some of the faster cars look like inside. All kinds of paneling in place of what came from the factory.

As an airframes mechanic I see and repair holes cut and patched all the time on aircraft structural panels that are held soley with rivets. Virtually nothing is welded on acft. If you think that any hole is a hack you oughta see whats going on in the airframe of some of the planes you ride in. Yes his rivet spacing and edge distance is not to aviation standards. And you should radius the corners of the hole and I wouldn't come too close to the edge that drops down toward the rear seat, but, so far it seems to be working out for the original poster. Ive seen this done on other thirdgens in the past that exhibited no structural issues in the area afterwards.

At this point no one can give any definitive data to show what kind of structural stresses are happening in that area so I don't think anyone is completely qualified to say what horrid thing will happen one way or the other if you were to just leave a gaping hole there. My personal opinion is that a flat panel is pretty much useless when resisting torsion and compression. It is pretty much only good for resisting tension. But as I alluded to above. A properly patched hole can have as much strength as the original panel if not stronger. May not even be necessary though.

As for Amorget's pictures... the dents, if they affect the car's integrity or alignment thats certainly not good. The edge of the access door in the pic appears to come right up to the corner of the rear seat drop and that would definitely not be advisable from a structural standpoint unless it was properly repaired afterwards. Those dents and cracks would be the first example of someone reporting an issue with a variation of this procedure that I have seen. It may simply show that the hole needs to not extend so far forward and that radiused corners are important. If there were several cars exhibiting the same problems with the hole further back and radiused I would definitely think there was an issue. So far that's not the case. And like I said above. A properly patched hole can be stronger than what was there.

and 45 psi is not "high pressure!!11!!", you would be surprised to see what kind of hack job hoses and tubes will hold 6000 psi (aviation). If you aren't a total moron, leakage should not be an issue. Especially if you use AN or MS or a regular compression fitting from the hardware store.

For the record, I have changed 4 thirdgen fuel pumps the "right" way.

86White_T/A305

Well Ill tell you guys right now that I had to take this route seeing as my pump gave out and it was in a storage facility and had to be out that day..guess how long it took before I got thing running after checking the boards here on how to do this right.I cut the hole..radiused the corners,changed the pump,used efi hose and clamps for now.bought some sheet metal and hinges.Started her up and got my car out in less than 2 hrs start to finish.This thread was my godsent for my situation and I followed the pics ive seen from the original poster and the guy who has his on a hinge and mine came out great.Its easy to do..fast and I didnt have to raise the car or kill myself trying to drop the tank on my own.Thanks for the tips from the guys who did this and didnt hack away at the car.I took extra steps to seal the cut with por15 and painted panel aswell.