TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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I think giving detailed tips of what problems you ran into along the way can greatly help future third gen owners trying to look for feedback from someone who didn't build the thing lol. My harness should be ariving soon and I hope to do the same thing and try to explain what problems I may have. I will try to take some pictures as well along the way. mine is going into an 89' formula so there are a few differences in the harnesses.
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Last edited by shocker89bird; 06-19-2007 at 02:18 PM.
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If anyone decides they want 4L60E or 4L80E control in the harness, this can also be done (even if not used immediately). shocker89bird's harness has 4L60E wiring, but for now he's got a manual transmission. Adding 4L60E control to a harness after it is built is going to be a lot of work. If you think there's the possibility of using a 4L60E/4L80E in the future, tucking the connector aside is easy.
For those making their own harness, I recommend including 4L60E control for the possibility of future use.
This is what Matt did with his 89 Formula (see several pages ago in this thread). He swapped rather quickly from the 700R4 to the 4L60E after he did this 0411 conversion.
The 4L60E and 4L80E are pinned differently, so keep that in mind. Plan on one or the other, but not both.
Cars originally equipped with an automatic transmission have the park/neutral indicator switch and brake switch. Installing a 4L60E is as simple as plugging it in. Cars with original manual transmissions may require additional work for the brake switch and park/neutral indicator signals. Now I'm speaking of wiring simplicity. There are a few ways to tackle the VSS. Fortunately the 0411 PCM allows for VSS correction through EFILive or your preferred tuning software.
VSS correction - I wish that was available for my S10 with the 730 electronics. Try getting a 40 pulse per driveshaft revolution signal (VSS in Typhoon transfer case) to work with the TPI ECM. My speedometer was all over the place. I'm really looking forward to getting the 0411 PCM into my S10.
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Originally Posted by battman
I got my ODB II TPI harness from Mike at EFI connection today and man its one nice looking piece. here are some pics of the harness and car.
I noticed the 2000 f-body in your profile. You can simply swap out the 99-00 PCM for the 01-02 PCM (12200411). I did this with my 2000 Firehawk. The harness is pinned the same. Just be sure you put your car's VIN in the newer PCM. If you don't, the air bag light will come on. There are no significant benefits on a stock car, but if you decide to use an EFILive custom operating system, it will be a good idea. A crankshaft relearn will probably be necessary.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-21-2007 at 07:14 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Re: 4L60 I'm gathering the parts for this conversion on the 88 GTA and the trans I got has a 2 piece bell housing and a connector at the shift lever. Will this trans work? I'm assuming the conn is for start and back-up?? Before I freshen it up, thought I'd better ask. Thanx, Dave
Re: 4L60 I'm gathering the parts for this conversion on the 88 GTA and the trans I got has a 2 piece bell housing and a connector at the shift lever. Will this trans work? I'm assuming the conn is for start and back-up?? Before I freshen it up, thought I'd better ask. Thanx, Dave
That 4L60E is from a gen 3 (LS style) engine (separate bell housing gives it away). The 4L60E from any LT1 car will be ideal for the gen 1 small block engines. As-is the transmission you have will not bolt up properly. I'm not aware of the parts required, but GM performance parts sells a kit. I don't know what is in the kit, but the kit is mentioned in the newest GMPP catalog. The gear selector switch on the left side of the transmission is not necessary for this conversion.
The guesswork on the park/neutral indicator signal (early in this thread) would have been avoided if the switch on the side of the transmission were used.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-21-2007 at 09:36 AM.
Ran into my first hicup yesterday before i even got the harness. Can't find my ignition key after much searching. Now I am going to replace the igniton lock and tighten the tilt steering nuts while i am at it. Other than the I am getting my old harness ready to be removed. I did take a before pircture but this will look almost identical to the finish product. It also helps that I have done two harnesses on this car and know what wires need to stay.
FYI jsut take your tiem guys if you have not done this before. Not the worst thing ever but time consuming. If you have any questions feel free to email me I can rememebr many of the wiring colors off of the top of my head, also you can talk to Mike he has been extremly helpful so far. He really seems to know his stuff. Sorry to volunteer your help liek that Mike i know you are very busy.
Re: 4L60E Thanks for the response, Mike. I glad I posted and the salvage yard assured me--------- well, you know. Back it goes. Thanks again, I will pick the right one and order my harness from you. Dave
I noticed the 2000 f-body in your profile. You can simply swap out the 99-00 PCM for the 01-02 PCM (12200411). I did this with my 2000 Firehawk. The harness is pinned the same. Just be sure you put your car's VIN in the newer PCM. If you don't, the air bag light will come on. There are no significant benefits on a stock car, but if you decide to use an EFILive custom operating system, it will be a good idea. A crankshaft relearn will probably be necessary.[/quote]
That’s good to hear that it doesn't have to be repined. I am installing nitrous so it looks like I will be making another 411 swap in the 2000 TA.
Mike, I have a MAF off of a 95 LT1 camaro do you know what the difference between it and the LS1 MAF? I have not compared part numbers yet but physically they look the same.
I have a MAF off of a 95 LT1 camaro do you know what the difference between it and the LS1 MAF? I have not compared part numbers yet but physically they look the same.
At one time I compared part numbers for the LT1 and LS1 MAF. They were different numbers. I'm not sure what is different about the sensors.
I am taking off work early today to go the junk yard and get the rest of the vortec parts I need and start working on it tomorrow mourning. I was going to try and do it tonight but I think I'm going to make some passes at the track in my 2000 ta tonight.
I am taking off work early today to go the junk yard and get the rest of the vortec parts I need and start working on it tomorrow mourning. I was going to try and do it tonight but I think I'm going to make some passes at the track in my 2000 ta tonight.
Sounds good battman. Should be a nice swap when you are done. I was able to find my parts all in the same place. Usually I would think the coil and igniton module come together. I was unable to get a timing cover with bolts so try to make sure you find yours with bolts as to save time trying to match them up.
I am taking off work early today to go the junk yard and get the rest of the vortec parts I need and start working on it tomorrow mourning. I was going to try and do it tonight but I think I'm going to make some passes at the track in my 2000 ta tonight.
Sounds good. If you run into any wiring issues during the install, please call to let me know. I have the schematics to help you out.
Also, be aware that I'm the only one who had a problem with the front timing cover leaking (driver side)...and I'm also the only one who did not use silicone sealer in addition to the seal built into the cover. Use a sealer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker89bird
I was unable to get a timing cover with bolts so try to make sure you find yours with bolts as to save time trying to match them up.
Another step closer! I met up with Mr. Lextech (Thanks again buddy!) earlier this week for a little 411 ECU 101. Jeff is one awesome guy...extremely gracious taking the time to help me out with the ECU's. Lemme tell ya his turbo truck is amazing...the welding and fabrication work he did looked absolutely perfect...he is a very detail oriented guy and it shows.
Now I just need to get my balancer machined down a bit and install it all and order the Harness from Mike when I get my paycheck this week
Jeff reiterated the same experiences as others whom have completed the 411 project...just upgrading his stock '98 ECU with stock tune to the 411 ECU with the stock tune was a night and day difference! Can't wait to order that harness and get the car running!
Looks like this has solutions to problems I was looking at too. First, I have an '86 with an LT1 with a TPI intake (accel base) and I really dont like the conversion harness. Where did you locate connectors to make it plug into the chassis harness?
How does the PCM signal work with the factory tach? Does it work ok or no? I'm assuming since it's running a dizzy and one coil and not multiple coils, that the signal is fine. And the other gages?
I'm half tempted right now to just build a harness if I can locate the connectors. Using an OBDII harness is such a PITA on an '86...
On camaroZ28.com, they were saying the Vortec distributor uses a cam sensor that is the same frequency as the LT1. So I'm assuming the Vortec distributor could also be used on LT1's to replace the optispark, while I build a new harness for my '94? That way I could run the '94 with EFI, and everything else will work as it's designed to. And I can do this on my '86 for simplicity...because my adapter harness SUCKS and there are no good wiring schematics for the car I can easily find! I want to ditch the generic adapter harness.
Where did you locate connectors to make it plug into the chassis harness?
EFI Connection builds custom EFI harnesses and buys original connectors in large quantities. Let me know what you're looking for and I'll see if I can help.
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How does the PCM signal work with the factory tach? Does it work ok or no? I'm assuming since it's running a dizzy and one coil and not multiple coils, that the signal is fine. And the other gages?
The tach gets a signal from the coil (connector cavity B), not the PCM. The speedometer may get a signal from the PCM or the vehicle's buffer box. It all depends on how you hook it up. The speed signal in the PCM can be adjusted. The rest of the gauges work from the original sending units.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-24-2007 at 08:53 PM.
1. On your site, I dont see anywhere where you offer to edit the bin files on the ECM for turning fuctions off/on. Do you offer this? If so, how much.
2. I was told the express doesnt have electric fans so the wiring will not be in the factory harness for this. Everyone says it will run the fans and I belive it will. Could you post what pin #'s need to be hooked up for this function to work?
I have almost all my parts collected, still a few short. ECM and harness should be in this week to look over and see what I need to order to make the factory van harness work. WOOT.
1. On your site, I dont see anywhere where you offer to edit the bin files on the ECM for turning fuctions off/on. Do you offer this? If so, how much.
I'm by no means a professional tuner, but I do have and work with Tunercat, Tunercat OBDII, EFILive V1, and EFILive V2. Basically, if you need constants changed, I can handle it. Work with a professional tuner for air/fuel/spark changes. Please contact me privately at mike@eficonnection.com with the items you need changed and I'll let you know what I can do.
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2. I was told the express doesnt have electric fans so the wiring will not be in the factory harness for this. Everyone says it will run the fans and I belive it will. Could you post what pin #'s need to be hooked up for this function to work?
Sure!
Fan 1 "Low Speed" - Blue Connector Cavity 42
Fan 2 "High Speed" - Red Connector Cavity 33
If you're not using LS1 fans, ignore the high and low speed notes. Just count on the PCM grounding these circuits to turn on fan relays.
The connectors I would need are the C100, c105, c210, c220 and c230 with corresponding wiring. The fourthgen has the relays and such in the chassis half of the harness, which these connect to for fuel, A/C, fans, and stuff like that. I have a set of the connectors from my last swap if you need them, since I know this isnt a common request. I just want to make the harness a plug in. The connectors I am referring to for the fourthgen can be seen here:
On the bright side, I looked on my data disc for schematics for my Camaro and was happy to see that I have ALL the GM SPO information for 2001 Chevy Express Vans. I have the PCM pinout diagrams and other information if you would like to post them, but someone will have to host the pics.
So let me see if I got this straight. This is such a long thread the info is kinda spread all over. Use a PCM and knock sensors from a 2001 Express Van with an 5.7 L31, and Vortec C/K distributor, crank sensor, timing cover, damper, and ignition module and coil. Toss in the remaining sensors required to complete an EFI setup: coolant temp, oil pressure, etc from the vehicle application and make a wiring harness using diagrams from the Express Van, using the vehicle's diagrams as a reference as to how to tie it all into the chassis. Then reflash the PCM and you're on your way. MAF can be the stock unit or a Z06 85MM MAF with the appropriate table changes. Am I correct? Did I leave anything out?
Out of curiosity, what ga wire is in the harness, 22? And with one car, there is no VATS to worry about so how would you wire in the harness? Still using the relay? That way on my 4thgen application, I can wire it in the same way, since I want to retain VATS, which is my next question...will this PCM still keep VATS functional on cars originally equipped, if the owner wanted it?
I'm the guy who emailed you earlier, btw Send me an email if you would like those schematics, with any requests if you have any. I have schematics for the C/K Vortec trucks too.
Basically, if you need constants changed, I can handle it.
Thats all I want, is some constants so I dont get SES light for stuff thats not there. Let me review what I plan on doing this week and what all it will do and I'll email you about it, and a few other things I plan to order.
Quote:
Sure!
Fan 1 "Low Speed" - Blue Connector Cavity 42
Fan 2 "High Speed" - Red Connector Cavity 33
I will have 2 fans, I could set this up as fan1 at x temp, and then fan 2 at x temp I am guessing? Thanks for the pin info.
So let me see if I got this straight. This is such a long thread the info is kinda spread all over. Use a PCM and knock sensors from a 2001 Express Van with an 5.7 L31, and Vortec C/K distributor, crank sensor, timing cover, damper, and ignition module and coil. Toss in the remaining sensors required to complete an EFI setup: coolant temp, oil pressure, etc from the vehicle application and make a wiring harness using diagrams from the Express Van, using the vehicle's diagrams as a reference as to how to tie it all into the chassis. Then reflash the PCM and you're on your way. MAF can be the stock unit or a Z06 85MM MAF with the appropriate table changes. Am I correct? Did I leave anything out?
Pretty much got it. You can use the stock MAF or 85MM Z06/Truck MAF with appropriate changes to the MAF table.
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Out of curiosity, what ga wire is in the harness, 22?
EFI Connection primarily uses 18ga TXL wire. The original OBDII harnesses use a lot of 20 and 22ga wire. Those original harness are more prone to problems with age because the wire is so thin. If requested, we do stock just about all colors in 20 and 22ga. For my own vehicle, I'd use 18ga wire.
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And with one car, there is no VATS to worry about so how would you wire in the harness? Still using the relay? That way on my 4thgen application, I can wire it in the same way, since I want to retain VATS, which is my next question...will this PCM still keep VATS functional on cars originally equipped, if the owner wanted it?
I don't fully understand what you're asking with VATS. I will say that there are different signals used for VATS throughout the TPI, LT1, and LS1 cars. For example, the signal (not resistance) of the Camaro/Firebird is different than the Corvette and Truck (as I understand it). I'm not sure if you can retain VATS in a LT1 car and use the Express Van operating system.
Well, we can try. I sent you an email. Simply put, I would like to keep A/C and VATS functionality so making the harness a replacement type instead of a standalone would be ideal. I'm imagining it like taking one of your harnesses, and between the relay and fuse center, splicing in a set of weatherpacks. The only catch is, you wouldnt start off with the half that has the fuses and relays...you would be able to see that in the schematics though.
I guess we could try to see if the VATS and such would work, since the key is the resistor and the ignition switch is the sensor, it's the VATS module that stores that proper resistance value and reports it to the PCM. My understanding is the module sends a signal to the PCM telling it it's good to start or not based on if it sees the appropriate resistance value from the key, and with VATS bypassed, the PCM reads good all the time. I'd be willing to try, dont see why it wouldnt work...
Worst case scenario is I wouldnt be able to use the LT1 VATS module. In that case, a swap to the appropriate LS1 F body VATS module and matching key would fix that problem, but I'd be on my own at that point, or I could just reflash the PCM with a bypass
Oh yeah and what application are you guys reporting to the people reflashing your PCM's? Are you having the PCM think it's a really hopped up Express van? How are the PCM's at accepting non-stock VIN numbers?
Regarding VATS in the LT1 car, it comes down to this. There are three options to the tuner: turn it off, use the "f-body" signal, or use the "Corvette" signal. If the LT1 car signal is incorrect for the 0411 PCM, reflash the PCM to use the other style VATS. If that doesn't work, get the VATS components from an LS1 car. For the sake of speculation, I think it will work as-is, but I can't speak from experience.
I have received errors using Tunercat when attempting to enter an invalid VIN. I don't know what criteria must be met to make a VIN valid to the tuning software. I've not yet changed a VIN with EFILive...because Tunercat OBDII has no licensing.
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Are you having the PCM think it's a really hopped up Express van?
The PCM doesn't contain vehicle meta data (meaning description of data), but the tuning software does its own lookup using the stored VIN. You can think of these OBDII conversions as being an Express Van PCM, but really it's the scan tool's interpretation of the stored VIN. Fortunately the Express Van was the only gen 1 SBC to get an operating system and calibration with the 0411. I really hope GM uses the gen 1 SBC again with one of the newer E38 or E40 ECMs. For simplicity, I would just keep the Express Van VIN and tell your local auto parts store, shop, or dealership that your 3rd gen f-body is really a 2001 Express Van.
Justin shared this experience with me after the recent Power Tour. The PCM threw a code, he explained to the auto parts store that they had to scan the PCM as a 2001 Express Van, found a cylinder 3 misfire code, traced it down to quickly see a loose spark plug, tightened it, cleared the code, and resumed the Power Tour. Now try quickly tracking down this problem with the original TPI electronics.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-26-2007 at 12:38 PM.
Mike, Erin and I just purchased a boat with a 90 350 Mag. Thinking of going EFI on it with some sort of TPI. Would it be hard to make up a 411 harness for Marine use. I would imagine a few things wouldnt be needed. Is this even doable without 02's? since the manifods are a wet design.
Just order mine from Mike this morning. Cant wait to try it out!!
I can't wait ether. Cause you know your going to help me with mine in the IROC and RS. So Mike, I'll be calling you one day for a harness setup for a t56 to put in the IROC. And one setup for a 4l60e to put in the 89 RS when I go TPI. This sounds like the best thing for EFI in these cars since they did stand alone system's! Adam :-)
What is the reasoning behind why the 411 will not control the TCC on the 700R4? I know the new PCM use a PWM solenoid to gently bring in the TCC on the new cars. Is the PCM still providing this signal when its hooked up without an electronic transmission control. It is my understanding that the PCM needs only a VSS, 4th gear, brake, and MAP signal to lock the TCC. It should already be recieving all these signals. If it is then why couldn't we use a PWM to DC voltage converter to control a 12V relay to provide the signal to lock the TCC on the 700R4 when the PCM commands?
What is the reasoning behind why the 411 will not control the TCC on the 700R4? I know the new PCM use a PWM solenoid to gently bring in the TCC on the new cars. Is the PCM still providing this signal when its hooked up without an electronic transmission control. It is my understanding that the PCM needs only a VSS, 4th gear, brake, and MAP signal to lock the TCC. It should already be recieving all these signals. If it is then why couldn't we use a PWM to DC voltage converter to control a 12V relay to provide the signal to lock the TCC on the 700R4 when the PCM commands?
Without all the (4L60E) transmission solenoids connected, I'm guessing error codes will be thrown and the signal will never be sent for lockup. Another problem would be that some 700R4 4th gear switches are normally open and some are normally closed. This would be a nightmare for a harness builder...but not so bad for the DIYer.
This should provide (more) clarity to the conversion. Below is a stock 1991 Trans Am engine harness (350 TPI with 700R4).
Left to Right..
- Bulkhead Connector, Fuel Pump Relay, Fan Relays
- O2 Sensor and Coolant Temp Sender for Gauges
- Oil Pressure Switch (difficult to see in pic)
- Bank 1 Injectors and Alternator
- Bank 2 Injectors, TPS, IAC, CTS, MAP, Air Pump, EGR, Knock Sensor, A/C Compressor, Starter
- Coil (Gray Connector)
- A/C Connector (Black Connector near trunk of harness)
- A/C Low Pressure Switch, Electric Fan Connectors, Fan Grounds, Charcoal Canister Purge
- ECM Connectors and I/P Connector (connector C207)
The fuel injection harness is removed. I made good use of the following terminal removal tools:
Left to Right..
- Bulkhead Connector, Fan Relays
- Misc Wires: Power to Fuel Pump, Tach, Oil Pressure Gauge, Brake Switch for Torque Converter Power, Ignition Power for Coil (not needed)
- Coolant Temp Sender for Gauges
- Alternator
- A/C Compressor, Starter
- A/C On Input Wire (Dark Green wire facing bottom)
- A/C Connector (Black Connector near trunk of harness)
- A/C Low Pressure Switch, Electric Fan Connectors, Fan Grounds, Charcoal Canister Purge (Part of Fuel Injection Harness, but left in place for length reference)
So what's next? The 0411 fuel injection harness must be mated with the remaining engine harness. In the same way the TPI harness was separated from the engine harness, the engine harness must be combined with the 0411 fuel injection harness.
The wires near the bulkhead connector need spliced into the 0411 fuel injection harness:
- fuel pump
- tach
- oil pressure
- brake switch (if using 4L60E)
- the A/C ON input wire needs to be spliced into the existing A/C compressor clutch wiring
This information in the past few posts is just a general guide. There are no short cuts and you must get familiar with your engine harness. This will take hours or maybe a few days depending on your familiarity with the engine harness.
All new 3rd gen 0411 engine harnesses EFI Connection has been building include new electric fan wiring and relay connectors. The harness pictured is going to be mated to a new custom LS1 harness with LS2 intake components and electronic throttle control. This conversion is a little more involved than the 0411 harness, but is much like the 0411 conversion.
Yes, I have been told that you can split the VSS signal to both the buffer box and the PCM without signal loss.
Good to know. Sorry i have yet to make any updates on progress other than removing my current harness. Haven't had the time and it has been very hot too.
1- got a HSR to go on the motor. will my crab distributor (99 truck) fit behind the HSR or will i have to mod the factory TPI one?
yup...barely clears the back of the intake. Thankfully you don't adjust the distributor too much.
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Originally Posted by weeoh5
2 - location of ECM. I like the clean look of putting the ECM inside but could I locate it in the engine compartment like a 4th gen? Anyone got pics? Could I put it where my cold air box/charcoal canister is? (passengers side behind headlight)
going to just stick with the inside install
Quote:
Originally Posted by weeoh5
3 - cruise control. Could diagnose my non functional factory cruise but I'd prefer to update to the later model type since I don't feel like having all the vacuum crap for the stock cruise. The truck style I think is controlled by the ECM? Might have been Body Controlled in 99 but I'd expect that in the 411 ECM, its integrated.
shouldn't be too hard, just need the module from the truck and associated wiring...might have it already
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Originally Posted by weeoh5
4 - charcoal canister. is it easier just to get the truck one and have it hooked up that way...looking to minimize the number of vacuum lines running all over the engine compartment (wish GM had thought of that in 87 )
easy as cake...new style uses power and is grounded by ECM
Did you test fit your fuel rails on the HSR with the dist? Try them out you may run into a problem.
What's the detail on the truck charcoal canister? Different hookup?
The fuel rails won't be a problem (using the HSR ones) since the crossover is in the front. It might be tight to get the vacuum line on the fuel pressure regulator but a 90deg fitting will solve that.
The charcoal canister is an electric pulse width valve instead of the factory type that has a vacuum pot and on/off type switch. I just wanted to limit the number of vacuum lines running everywhere. You always seem to end up chasing your tail looking for vacuum leaks
Sorry weeoh5 you will definately run into problems with the fuel rails as they run directly into the path of the plug wires on the cap. There is no way you can get the plg wires on there with the longer fpr rail installed. Even with 90 degree fitting on the back, 2 short rails, and a remote AFPR there is interference...... trust me..I have it mocked up now without any fittings on the fuel rails and it fits like a s s.....
I have with a Ramjet intake on a 98 Vortec truck. Since the port spacing is the same, I would think it should work fine. I did have to shorten the rear of the rails as much as possible. I welded on a 90 degree -6 fitting to the rear of the rails to help make it as compact as possible.
How are the PCM's at accepting non-stock VIN numbers? 
)
