TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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The ECM will have to atleast have the VATS modified before you fire it.
TB sensors. The TPS is fine. Im having a bit of problems getting the IAC to fully function right, but I'm not a pro-tuner. It will control it.
Ive had a s10 4.3maf on mine. This weekend installed the propper 5.7l. Some guys on the truck board use the LS7 maf? If your gonna boost, I would suggest the LS7 maf.
Will the injectors truely physically fit? And what ohm reading are they? If they are high-ohm and physically fit. I dont see why it wont run them.
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The only caveat with these is that the MAF and SD are very closely coupled together and neither one has complete control of the fueling, so it takes some care to weed the MAF out. There appears to be an airmass blending multiplier matrix for the cylinder airmass, dynamic airflow, and dynamic airmass calcs that can allow you to either have the fueling be just via the MAF or SD if its set up properly.
Not sure if anyone else seen it, but there is a guy on ebay selling billit vortec distributors. Looks just like the Accel one, I couldn't tell if it was Accel or not in the pics. But hes selling them for about $200 each which is a decent deal compared to what Summit wants for the Accel.
Also I have seen CHEAP used distributors on ebay. MerCruiser also uses them on their 96 and up marine motors as well. No body really looks up mercruiser to find a distibutor.
I guess. Never heard of that happening though. What are the symptoms? No start?
I still love this swap. Theres just something about going out to my car when its 20 degrees out, literally bumping the key, and the car instantly fires and holds a perfect idle. This swap is probably the best thing I've had done to my car.
I'm in the process of resealing the intake now. I hope the distributor doesn't give me any lip! lol
I guess. Never heard of that happening though. What are the symptoms? No start?
The problem usualy comes when you go to replace the cap and rotor for a tune up. The screws are locked into the cap and the new cap comes with new screws that have fresh lock tite on them. If you dont clean all of that off the screws it will jam with the old lock tite thats still in the whole from the old screws and the little ears on the base snap. The first time I did it I didnt even notice, seemed like it was on there fine then I started getting random missfire codes. when I was checking things out I noticed the cap was loose, tried to tighten it and found the broken ear. Basicaly lock tite and fiberglass is a bad idea.
Ok, so Im looking at EFI live and they have V1 Scan and tune for $550 and V2 Scan and tune for $750, I can see on the vehicle list that V2 obviouly does more of the newer stuff the V1 won't. Which one are you guys running? Im leaning twards the V1 because I don't see myself needing to tune anyting newer.
I'm using both V1 and V2, but it doesn't really matter because the software is the same. Like you said, if you're never going to tune the newer control modules (E40, E38, E67, etc) then you don't need to spend the extra $200.
just replaced my intake manifold gaskets. Buttoned everything up on the car. The distributor wasnt turned to the same place as it was when removed. My mistake, I should have caught that. I started the car. It idled rough and would pop/hesitate through the exhaust. It set a misfire code. I turned the distributor back where it was, and fired the car up. it was MUCH better...I drove it a little. It has a weird surge/hesitation now. Despite clearing the misfire code, it came back. Mkos says I might have to do a crank relearn. I also added a ram air box, and underdrive crank pulley but I doubt it would make the car run weird.
I dont think it has to do a re-learn. Your timing may be off, and the cam sensor pulse could be too late/early. The main purpose of the cam sensor is to give the computer a reference for when the cylinder firing order restarts. It uses it to make sure that the #8 cylinder fires after the cam sensor pulse is recieved. If thats not satisfied (pulse too early/late or absent), then initially it does a full reset and starts the firing sequence again, at least in my computer. I dont think precision down to minute increments of a degree are necessary, but you should probably relocate TDC using the #1 piston as a reference and put the dist. back that way.
You can reinstall the distributor within 2* of setting a code. If the cam sensor pulse it a little late or early it needs a relearn reguardless. The crank and cam need to be in sync. He can still put it back to tdc and point it to 1 but it'll still need a relearn. On the formula we threw a timing light on it for the hell of it. Heck. The markers from the timing light never even appeared on the balancer. lol
good to know! Hopefully I'll be able to fix this problem this weekend when the rain stops, and im not busy doing a million things. Good weather is coming and I want to start daily driving my car to work
Got a eChek today so that I could get my plates for this year. Here are the numbers for the formula with just a converter and 7 month old untreated gas.
HC 29.1 PPM Limit 144.0
CO .92 Limit .92 Just snuck by on this one!
NO 200.4 PPM Limit 1014.0
CO2 14.55 Limit N/A For 1989 There is no requirement
OK guys, got a question. I just hooked up my buddies snapon scantool so I could finally do a crank relearn on my car.
He used the vin off of his 2001 trans am so his scantool would go into the menus and whatnot, so we could access the relearn procedure.
I got to the first step where it says to give it gas until the fuel cutoff. I tried about 5 times, and there was never a fuel cutoff!
I've tried to contact my tuner so I can ask him some questions but he's not returning my messages
Are there certain scantools that this wont work with? Maybe using my buddies VIN messed it up? HALP!! lol
For the sake of documentation and to provide additional insight to these questions, I'm posting my experience with this. Justin and I spoke by phone today.
VIN Selection
It would probably be best to use an 01-02 Express Van VIN for the scan tool because that is the calibration loaded into the PCM. However, EFILive does not ask for this and I would suspect it doesn't really matter what VIN is used for the SnapOn tool anyway.
Park/Neutral Signal
We discovered that in this case the Park/Neutral signal was never applied while attempting to do the relearn. This is a show stopper. The PCM will never do a relearn without grounding the Park/Neutral wire(s). I mention wires (with an 's') because it's Blue 32 and Blue 34 that are actually grounded. I've been building harnesses where these wires are spliced together into one wire.
"Powertrain" Codes Present
If a "powertrain" code is set you can not perform the relearn procedure. I do not recall the exact range of codes that are considered "powertrain", but your best bet is to make sure the only code present is the crankshaft relearn code. If you have any other codes set, fix the problems or reflash the PCM to disable the codes (where appropriate) before doing the relearn. This is also a show stopper. In other words if you have an electric fan code, you can not choose to "fix it later" and still do the relearn. It's just the way the system was designed. Justin has a Fuel Pressure code set, but without having the actual code number, I can not look to see if it is a "powertrain" code. Regardless, it would be best to disable that as it is not used with his car.
Hey guy just chiming in again, long time no here. I just got 4 bolt .030 main block back from machine shop, I'm using ZZ4 cam and heavy duty vortec chain. Did the guys using the vortec timing chain have problems with the timing chain binding or the camshaft going backward in block? I'm currently blueprinting block and checking clearances. I have a cam button and not worried about the cam riding forward. I did'nt have the roller lifter in when I was checking clearances. Is there a bronze bearing I can put behind cam sprocket? I hate being the problem child on this board, any help would be appreciated.
With the 041 ECM I would prefer to use a MAF system on my 89 L98. I want to stay MAF because I have the L98 in a Jeep that operates at from below sea level to 10,00 ft of elevation. Also, I am assuming modifications will be accomodated better by keeping MAF. Can I use the later model MAF like the LS1 or LT1 has? GM Part Number? Or what can I get it off of at pic-a-part?
Last edited by sol_searcher; 04-15-2008 at 07:07 PM.
Hey guy just chiming in again, long time no here. I just got 4 bolt .030 main block back from machine shop, I'm using ZZ4 cam and heavy duty vortec chain. Did the guys using the vortec timing chain have problems with the timing chain binding or the camshaft going backward in block? I'm currently blueprinting block and checking clearances. I have a cam button and not worried about the cam riding forward. I did'nt have the roller lifter in when I was checking clearances. Is there a bronze bearing I can put behind cam sprocket? I hate being the problem child on this board, any help would be appreciated.
adjust the rear cam plug in to keep the cam from setting to far back into the block, then use the cam button to keep it from moving forward. or you can grind the ears off the thrust plate that is supposed to be used with the zz4 cam on the 87 and later blocks.
adjust the rear cam plug in to keep the cam from setting to far back into the block, then use the cam button to keep it from moving forward. or you can grind the ears off the thrust plate that is supposed to be used with the zz4 cam on the 87 and later blocks.
It sucks that there are no real good solutions for using an older block. Im using a retro-roller, so it'll be interesting trying to rig up the crank sensor.
Not sure how well the plastic cover would stand up to a cam button. Some of them have bearings in them, so one of those would be the best bet, along with bracing the cover using the water pump so it doesnt crack.
depending on how deep a sheet metal cover is, as compared to a plastic one, you could in theory weld a bung into the cover to hold the sensor. A small hole saw, the bung, and a 110v welder and you are on your way.....or like you mentioned, I beleive edelbrock sells a water pump with a adjustable stop built in , so the cover would probably be fine pinched between the stop and the cam button....
Thanks again guys for quick response, yeah it does suck with these older blocks but it was a bargain at $200 with GM forged crank. I have seen some timing sets that have a torrington or bronze bushing. I have not seen them sold separately.
I'm not worried about the crank sensor, I'm using the vortec balancer with reluctor. It's just the thought of reving the motor to 2000 to 3000 rpm and the camshaft coming out the back of the block.
I'll try to adjust the camshaft plug about 1 to 2 mm and see if it works. But before I do that, I will put roller lifters and distributor today in and see if that solves the problem.
Remember the only thrust that is on a roller cam is the distributor pushing it forward. So the cam button is the critical item here. If you use the back cam plug method I would loctite it in place for insurance though.
Tried the 01 Firebird vin, AND an 01 Express van vin. Didn't change anything
Grounded the Neutral switch, and that didn't change anything.
The car is idling high at about 1500 until I put it in gear and let the clutch out a little. Then it willhold a steady idle. Also some times when trying to dothe relearn, at 4000 RPM's the fuel would cut off and the car would die. No rhyme or reason to it.
When I talked to mike again tonight I told him again about the MAF code, and the fuel level circuit code. Both are powertrain codes. Apparently there is a maf code that needs to stay present. Does anyone know for sure what code that is so I can compare it to the one I have? Also, I guess I need to get the fuel level code erased from my computer because it was a code that didn't show up until after my swap/tune. It doesn't effect the cars performance at all, but since its a Powertrain code, mike says that right there will prevent a relearn from being done.
I really need to get ahold of my tuner but for whatever reason he isn't returning my calls Its been a damn month since I tore the car apart and its still isn't running right. Maybe I should just slap a carb on it! :-p
Justin, you’re digging to deep, you do not need to do a crank relearn just because you removed the distributor. I would go back and double check the intake and vacuum lines. It sounds like you might have a vacuum leak somewhere. Maybe the intake did not seal?
”CASE” means: crankshaft angle sensor error. A crankshaft variation relearn must be performed if:
A diagnostic trouble code of P1336 is present.
The computer has been replaced or re-programmed.
The crankshaft position sensor has been replaced.
The engine, harmonic balancer, clutch, or flywheel have been: disassembled, removed, or replaced.
The crankshaft position variation learning feature enables the computer to compensate for part manufacturing tolerances. This allows the computer to accurately detect an engine misfire throughout the engine RPM range. The learning process is stored in the computer’s memory and does not have to be repeated unless one or more of the above conditions are present.
To perform the relearn, proceed as follows:
Connect a scan tool to make sure there are no trouble codes stored in the computer’s memory. If there is any power train trouble code other than P1336 (Crankshaft Position Variation not learned), the computer will disable the relearn function until the problem that caused the code has been eliminated. Also, make sure that the engine coolant (check it when the engine is cold) and oil levels are at an acceptable level.
1. Set the parking brake and block the drive wheels. Make sure that the hood is closed.
2. Start the engine and make sure that the engine coolant temperature is at least 158 degrees F. (70 degrees C.)
3. Turn the engine off for at least 10 seconds.
4. Select the crankshaft position variation learn procedure (CASE Learn)on your scan tool.
5. Make sure that the transmission is in Park. Start the engine.
6. Apply the brakes and hold the pedal firmly.
7. Follow the scan tool instructions.
Remember: That you are going to increase the engine speed to approximately 3000 RPM, 4000 RPM, or 5150 RPM. That’s the variation learn fuel cutoff RPM (depending upon the engine), and that it’s important to release the throttle when the engine RPM starts to decrease as a result of the fuel cutoff going into effect. Failure to do such will result in over revving of the engine, causing possible engine damage.
8. Once the engine has returned to idle, check the status of Diagnostic trouble code P1336. If the scan tool indicates that the CASE has been learned, the relearn procedure is now complete. If CASE has not been learned, check for the presence of other power train codes. If any exist, correct the problem, then repeat this procedure.
”CASE” means: crankshaft angle sensor error. A crankshaft variation relearn must be performed if:
A diagnostic trouble code of P1336 is present.
The computer has been replaced or re-programmed.
The crankshaft position sensor has been replaced.
The engine, harmonic balancer, clutch, or flywheel have been: disassembled, removed, or replaced.
The crankshaft position variation learning feature enables the computer to compensate for part manufacturing tolerances. This allows the computer to accurately detect an engine misfire throughout the engine RPM range. The learning process is stored in the computer’s memory and does not have to be repeated unless one or more of the above conditions are present.
To perform the relearn, proceed as follows:
Connect a scan tool to make sure there are no trouble codes stored in the computer’s memory. If there is any power train trouble code other than P1336 (Crankshaft Position Variation not learned), the computer will disable the relearn function until the problem that caused the code has been eliminated. Also, make sure that the engine coolant (check it when the engine is cold) and oil levels are at an acceptable level.
1. Set the parking brake and block the drive wheels. Make sure that the hood is closed.
2. Start the engine and make sure that the engine coolant temperature is at least 158 degrees F. (70 degrees C.)
3. Turn the engine off for at least 10 seconds.
4. Select the crankshaft position variation learn procedure (CASE Learn)on your scan tool.
5. Make sure that the transmission is in Park. Start the engine.
6. Apply the brakes and hold the pedal firmly.
7. Follow the scan tool instructions.
Remember: That you are going to increase the engine speed to approximately 3000 RPM, 4000 RPM, or 5150 RPM. That’s the variation learn fuel cutoff RPM (depending upon the engine), and that it’s important to release the throttle when the engine RPM starts to decrease as a result of the fuel cutoff going into effect. Failure to do such will result in over revving of the engine, causing possible engine damage.
8. Once the engine has returned to idle, check the status of Diagnostic trouble code P1336. If the scan tool indicates that the CASE has been learned, the relearn procedure is now complete. If CASE has not been learned, check for the presence of other power train codes. If any exist, correct the problem, then repeat this procedure.
P0463: Fuel Level Sensor Circuit Signal High
P1345: CKP/CMP Learn
P0102: MAF Circuit Signal Low
If you did not have a typo and you really do have a P1345 code set (and not P1336), then the PCM is not requesting a CASE relearn.
CONDITIONS FOR SETTING THE DTC
When the engine is running, the cam sensor pulse is not detected at the correct relative position to the crankshaft position sensor pulse.
The cars being converted to the OBDII system will share much of the same trouble codes and diagnostic procedures as the 96-99 Vortec Trucks and 01-02 Express Vans. A quick peek at the P1345 code description in the service manual points toward the crank and cam signals being out of sync. A CASE relearn does not sync the signals or correct for a distributor that has been placed in the engine incorrectly.
If you have not already purchased a service manual for this OBDII system, I strongly recommend a Helm manual or a $25.00 AllDataDIY.com suscription to the 01-02 Express Van. This may prove to be very useful when working with the system and could save you a lot of time and frustration.
As for the other codes:
P0463: Fuel Level Sensor Circuit Signal High
If it were my vehicle I would disable this one in the PCM. If you left Ohio without a service engine light on, I would suspect this code is not causing a service engine light...but the PCM is aware of it.
P0102: MAF Circuit Signal Low
You should check with a tuner, but I think this one is set when converting to speed density only. The PCM keeps track of this code, but does not set the light. To get the explanation behind this code when converting to speed density, a tuner should be able to help or the guys in the forum at EFILive.com.
Code 1345 is a Cam Position / Crankshaft position correlation code which means you did not put your dizy back in correctly. Also, when you are doing a crank relearn the car is supposed to cut off at around 4000 to 4500 rpm and then you should turn off the key for a sec. Next,
P0463 Fuel Level sensor is a Non Emissions code which will not affect the crank relearn. Next,
P0102 is also set to non emissions to run in SD mode which will also not stop a crank relearn.
To fix your problem, install the Dizy the correct way. Remove the battery tirm for a bit, rehook up the battery and do a crank rearn agin. That should do it. You may need to play with the dizy a bit to get it just right. It needs to be within a few degrees for everything to work correctly.
Can we get a list of who all has done this swap, and who your ecm/pcm was tuned by?
justin89formy-LSRacing/Jamy
S10wildside-LSR?
Dale-self tuned/efilive
Battman-self tuned/efilive
Moates-self?
MKOS1980-LSR
Scuzz-IIRC, installed but not running yet/hptuner?
Fast355 in a van-?
shocker89bird-?
d10pins-scuzz/self/hptuner
I finally got mine running awsome. It turned out I didnt have my distributor in right. I may have had my rotor in wrong too, but now it runs soooo smooth. Thanks to s10wildside for the wiring harness and scuzz for programming the pcm. Thanks for all your help!!! I used HPTuners.
I finally got mine running awsome. It turned out I didnt have my distributor in right. I may have had my rotor in wrong too, but now it runs soooo smooth. Thanks to s10wildside for the wiring harness and scuzz for programming the pcm. Thanks for all your help!!! I used HPTuners.
My project is totally different from you guys.
S10Wildside built me a complete harness for my 41 Chevy pickup streetrod. I'm running a Ramjet/4L60E setup and using the 0411 PCM. It was the first one he did, and he did an excellent job.
The truck is basically ready to fire with a couple days refinement. I got off the project a couple years ago it seems because the wife insisted her 67 bird convert get finished, then I got down in my back, then my mother broke a hip. If nothing happens this summer, the truck will be running.
Wish me luck.
Bryan at PCMforless made the inital settings on my PCM for me long before anyone got started doing this convertion. When I approached him, he thought it was a great idea to use the pcm on older engines.
I have TCII and hope to finish up tuning myself, if I ever get time to get it fired.
Ron
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