TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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is there a way to set the timing without having a scanner on this setup? I know in my truck I was never able to, always ended up taking it to a shop to have it set to get the SES light to stay off.
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is there a way to set the timing without having a scanner on this setup? I know in my truck I was never able to, always ended up taking it to a shop to have it set to get the SES light to stay off.
My distributor was in wrong. Thanks to Jamy, Mike, D10pins and the others that bounced ideas off my brain. I was definitely stumped, and had no idea that the vortech dist. had to be installed a certain way. Learn something every day!
The car pulls much harder now, with the ram air box and underdrive crank pulley
My distributor was in wrong...and had no idea that the vortech dist. had to be installed a certain way.
I'll explain...
The engine is equipped with both a crank and cam signal. The crank timing ring has four teeth (four pulses) and the cam timing ring has one tooth (if you want to call it a tooth) and provides one pulse. The rotation of the distributor causes the rotation of the cam timing ring. The cam sensor is mounted in the distributor (take off the cap to see it clearly). The PCM expects a certain cam signal in relation to the crank signal and so on. If the distributor is not in correctly, the cam signal is out of sync with the crank signal (which is always fixed because of the sensor mounted in the timing cover and the timing ring keyed to the crank). So...the engine can never run properly when the cam signal is out of sync with the crank signal...which only happens when the distributor is installed incorrectly.
One last question. Why does my car run rough until I physically move the distributor until it runs smoother? I thought the physical position of the distributor made no difference?
One last question. Why does my car run rough until I physically move the distributor until it runs smoother? I thought the physical position of the distributor made no difference?
A lot of the mystery of the distributor can be revealed by removing the cap and observing what the distributor does.
It's a Camshaft Position Sensor
There's a half moon shaped disc (or ring) that passes through the cam sensor. The half moon shape provides one pulse per revolution of the distributor. The position and rotation of this disc is directly related to the position of the distributor gear on the camshaft. Put the distributor in wrong and the cam sensor is going to be out of sync with the crank sensor.
It Delivers Spark
There are 9 wires on the distributor cap. One wire comes from the coil. The other 8 go to each spark plug. The coil provides spark to the rotor in the distributor and the rotor, as it rotates, provides spark to each spark plug wire going to the spark plugs. When you loosen the distributor and turn it by hand (camshaft not moving) the rotor is fixed and the distributor housing turns with the cap. This is changing the alignment of the rotor.
Whoever said the postion of the distributor does not matter hasn't fully thought it through.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 05-02-2008 at 07:49 AM.
I've got my own project going on too. I'm doing a custom harness for a 427 TPI using the first injections manifold. Should work out pretty well. Hopefully It'll be assembled by January and running not too long after that.
I wanted to build something that looked like stock, required fab work and performed like a bat out of hell. Think I might be on to something here!
I've got a quick question about the wiring harness. Since I'm converting a LG4 motor I don't have a TPI harness so, I was wondering, if I want to do my own harness is it better to start with a TPI harness or should I try to find a LSx based harness? There's trade offs to each I'm sure (an original TPI harness is old and pinned for a TPI ecm and so on) but I'm starting from scratch so either direction doesn't matter.
Thanks,
Tony
If you read back through the post we are not using LSx harnesses, The swap uses a GEN I vortec harness from a truck or van, the ECM is from an 02 Express van, and yes it takes both a TPI harness and a Vortec harness to make it happen. or call Mike at EFI connection and have him build you one.
Yeah I wanna see it done too. I'm using all but the plenum and TB, I'm using an extensively ported/welded plenum to make it look more like stock. Grinding down the logos and sandblasting it all after the metalwork. Welding either side of the plenum behind the TB flange so I can get a better angle leading into the plenum area. Putting a slight flare in the openings in the plenum going into the runners.Cutting down the bulges on the inside from the blind bolt holes in the plenum. Thermal coatings on the intake base. Extrude honing, athough I'm considering tootsie rolls and cross buffs to be more cost effective (if I can find a flex head for a dremel or something to get in the middle of the runners)Stuff like that. I want to keep mine as a LTR and I'm thinking I will run shaftmounts (after I determine the cam and rocker ratio(s) it likes) with a 224/232/114 hydraulic roller in a large bore late model bowtie block with it. (suprises me you guys havent discovered the late model large bore roller blocks yet)
I want to find a way to put a 427 or larger TPI topped engine in my '86 and not loose the LT1 longblock. It's great in a way because it has NO coolant flowing through the base, so the intake stays cold as hell for a long period of time. I had my forearm on it after it ran for an hour and it was just luke warm. No coating on the accel conversion base...out of the box. Lots of potential there. But I also want cubes. I've been considering not using the 382ci'er I have (which is perfect for a TPI motor specwise, thought it is an LT1 with ZZ383 guts) and sleeving an LT1, though I think it might cost more than the benefits. I'm thinking about how I can get the parts in there I want and not loose the reverse flow cooling.
If interested, I will port pictures of what a tuned port LT1 looks like. Everyone always asks.
Alot of people in the LTx and LSx world look down on TPI's. Obviously, they lack engine building skill, knowledge of how TPI works, or are just plain dumb. LTx's and LSx's are great motors and shine in their own ways and I love them too...you really cant beat the low end torque. We arent talking about a Civic here. Besides, we are now getting aftermarket heads that can flow well into LS1 territory. That is phenominal with LT1 and SBC 23* heads.
I've seen too many people whine about how poor their TPI motor is, but they dont know how to tune it, dont do maintenance on it, and always choose the wrong parts to go with it. It's TUNED port injection, therefore, you have a significantly smaller margin of error with parts selection, usually with cams.
I wanna kick some *** and pop the hood and say it's just a little TPI lol!
GTA, I would be interested in seeing a complete list of what is done to your motor so I can give it some thought while I sit here at the airport waiting to leave this foul desert. I'm thinking about my dilemma right now.
If you read back through the post we are not using LSx harnesses, The swap uses a GEN I vortec harness from a truck or van, ...
To be more specific, the LS1 harness is pinned for coil per cylinder and the gen 3 engine firing order. The OBDII Vortec harnesses are pinned for an ignition module and single coil. There are other differences, too. It is by far easier to start with an OBDII Vortec harness.
Regardless of the way you go, it's a lot of work to rework a harness. It's worth mentioning again...this is not a quick bolt on.
This thread is getting very big, so I'll restate some of the points previously made (that I often get questions about).
82-87 f-bodies (non-TPI)
This car is lacking the necessary ignition fuses in the original fuse block to handle the OBDII harness. You'll want to consider using a separate fuse block for the system. The VSS signal is best received from an aftermarket setup that spins the speedometer cable and outputs a 4000ppm signal to the PCM.
85-88 f-bodies (with TPI)
This is the easiest coversion. The original fuel injection harness pretty much comes out of the car with ease (after the fender is removed). If you order a new OBDII TPI harness, it will just about plug into the car. Of course there could be a few exceptions. Cable driven speedometer cars should consider an aftermarket VSS setup that spins the speedometer cable and outputs a 4000ppm signal to the PCM.
89-92 f-bodies (all of them)
GM merged the fuel injection harness into the rest of the engine harness (lights, horn, wiper motor, etc, etc). This can get messy, time consuming, and possibly frustrating. If you thoroughly understand the factory harness you can separate the fuel injection harness after cutting a few wires. If you order a new OBDII TPI harness, it will go back in the same way the old fuel injection harness came out.
Why doesn't EFI Connection offer a plug and play harness?
There are so many different scenerios for building a harness for these cars. I'm willing to consider a service to merge the original engine harness to the new fuel injection harness, but it's more time and more work. Realistically you'd be looking at $800-$1000 (including the $600 OBDII TPI harness). I don't expect too many are willing to spend this much on a harness. However, there are companies building LSx harnesses in this range.
I did a plug and play harness for a friend's 1990 Trans Am. It was A LOT of work.
S10Wildside really did a great job building a custom OBDII harness for my 41 pickup with Ramjet/4L60E.
He knows how to do a great job, and you will have less headache doing your job.
Ron
I've got a quick question about the wiring harness. Since I'm converting a LG4 motor I don't have a TPI harness so, I was wondering, if I want to do my own harness is it better to start with a TPI harness or should I try to find a LSx based harness? There's trade offs to each I'm sure (an original TPI harness is old and pinned for a TPI ecm and so on) but I'm starting from scratch so either direction doesn't matter.
Thanks,
Tony
Thats EXACTLY what I did. I bought a used van harness, used some old v6 injector harness', and used my old TBI harness. Merged all them together.
It was easy for me because I have wired other motors in things they shouldnt be in. Plus I live with a certified electrician.
:edit: A few other things I have run into.
1. The vortec timing cover I got, the gasket wasnt NEAR the right spot. I have had to remove it again and make my own silicone gasket to get it to quit leaking.
2. I have swapped to a LT1 IAC and TB base plate to get my idle correct. I would like to thank Craig Moates for this info and help. Ive only drove the car 1 time since this swap and I'm still trying to get my desired airflow right. But so far it is already better.
S10Wildside really did a great job building a custom OBDII harness for my 41 pickup with Ramjet/4L60E.
He knows how to do a great job, and you will have less headache doing your job.
Ron
I agree on the work. Top notch quality! Plus, a real big positive for me is that Mike is a real helpful guy and has taken the time to answer questions I have, no matter how simple or stupid they might have been. Hey, I guess you don't learn if you don't ask questions
I have swapped to a LT1 IAC and TB base plate to get my idle correct.
Interesting. I know we have at least 4 cars running successfully with the TPI base plate. You'd have to talk with Jamy on that one. Good to hear the LT1 base plate is helping you out.
I agree on the work. Top notch quality! Plus, a real big positive for me is that Mike is a real helpful guy and has taken the time to answer questions I have, no matter how simple or stupid they might have been. Hey, I guess you don't learn if you don't ask questions
i agree with you Justin. Mike is a nice guy who helped me out through the process!!
Ive tryed him, efi boards, few others on here. Nobody was willing to help except moates. Scuzz offered, but his setup is to different. I know your not an ecm person, so I didnt ask you.
I'm still trying to decide between this conversion or going with something like the Big Stuff 3. The cost (if I get the harness made) is very close to the Big Stuff 3, but this obviously has 4L60E support where the Big Stuff 3's price would go up over $400 to do that. The flipside is for the same price as this conversion costs, the Big Stuff would have wide band 02. I don't think this 411 conversion will support that but I'm not clear on that? Even if it does, it would put it in the same price ballpark as the Big Stuff with 4L60E support.
Also, what is the status of the effort to get individual coil packs working on a conversion? Wouldn't it just be higher resolutions reluctors and then you could run an LS1 program.
One last question... I need to run the custom OS from EFI Live that supports 2-3 bar map. Does that OS work just as well with the distrubutor/single coil arrangement as it would with a straight LS1 style setup?
I think the WBo2 would be the program, not car ecm? But either way, Its highly suggested to go to a WBo2. So yes, it will support it.
COS from EFI supports boosted cars. So I'm sure that includes 2/3 bar maps. The COS are mainly desgined to work with the LSx motors. But they will work on about any tune.
The coil pack setup is more figuring how to get a cam sensor to work w/o a dizzy. And how to mount them. The truck single coil, and the LSx coil pack setup uses the same OS, in the same ECM. Its just what options are turned on/off.
i was going to keep quiet about some stuff i am working on that relate to that last post, but i have an engine in mockup right now set to use ls-1 coil packs and firing order. next generation might even use electronic throttle for "traction control". I spent a lot of time figuring out the "cam sensor" part of the swap. It looks very promising, especially with the prospect of me running it on an lt-1 intake swapped smallblock in a thirdgen.
i was going to keep quiet about some stuff i am working on that relate to that last post, but i have an engine in mockup right now set to use ls-1 coil packs and firing order. next generation might even use electronic throttle for "traction control". I spent a lot of time figuring out the "cam sensor" part of the swap. It looks very promising, especially with the prospect of me running it on an lt-1 intake swapped smallblock in a thirdgen.
The cam signal should be no big deal (it's 1 pulse per rev). It's the crank signal that is the real issue. How did you tackle it?
You mention the engine is set to use the LS1 firing order? Unless you have a custom camshaft/crankshaft in there I'm not sure how you can accomplish the LS1 firing order on a gen 1 engine.
Those kits will not work with any LS-style PCM. Their crank timing ring has an incorrect signal.
Notice those rings bolt to the balancer. The balancer is isolated in rubber. With high torque that ring may shift (momentarily) and provide an inconsistent signal. I wouldn't rely on a ring bolted to the balancer for the LS1 PCM...or any ignition system.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 05-10-2008 at 10:18 PM.
The cam signal should be no big deal (it's 1 pulse per rev). It's the crank signal that is the real issue. How did you tackle it?
You mention the engine is set to use the LS1 firing order? Unless you have a custom camshaft/crankshaft in there I'm not sure how you can accomplish the LS1 firing order on a gen 1 engine.
yes to both but this isnt the thread for discussing it. a cola 4" stroke crank and a raised cam location in the block with a 55mm cam core diameter. was going to stop with th 4/7 swap but decided to carry it further.
the cam sensor was a pair of circles with 1/2 of each missing, clocked 180* from each other.
currently the crank sensor used with a cnc reluctor ring behind a billet aluminum crank pulley. much like a crank trigger. odd combination of hardware,sensors, and some creative "engineering", but it is coming together slowly. i thought about milling a cnc flexpate with the "voids" machined into it and putting the crank sensor on a bracket behind the oil filter mounting pad. my local machine shop just closed so its put things to a standstill until i can get comfortable with another machinist.
rocko350, good thinking. I hope you can pickup and continue with the project.
We've been taking a different approach by basically doing what the C7500 454 engine does (and I wasn't aware of this until just minutes ago, wow!). Keep the reluctor inside the timing cover and use the distributor for a cam signal only. This is prototype material here, but it's coming together quickly. The engine is a 350 TPI converted to a Ram Jet 350 and Corvette electronic throttle body and coils. Should be running (at least attempted) in the upcoming weeks.
We thought about mounting the ring external, but that has its own complications (rust on the ring, position of sensor, appearance, etc). The best solution was to keep the ring under the timing cover, so that is our goal. Several very skilled people put a lot of time into research and development of this ring.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 05-12-2008 at 08:11 AM.
As for a cam sensor with coil packs. I have done some searching. It appears the 7.4l "D" engine uses the LS1 pcm, coil packs. For its cam sensor it uses part 213-350. Its basically a distributor with a special cap on it. I know we all would like to get away from having something jabbed in that hole. But finding a part number for this cap alone would IMO be much easier.
:edit: you also have the msd-8514. Not sure how many pulse, or what voltage is needed to it. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...w=1&N=700+150+ But I have sent an email to MSD to ask how many volts and pulse it outputs.
But finding a part number for this cap alone would IMO be much easier.
This cap is no longer availble through GM or through Vintage Parts (the place GM parts go to when they're discontinued). I was able to order the last one. I was told that unless there is a big demand for this, it will never come back into existance.
Quote:
:edit: you also have the msd-8514. Not sure how many pulse, or what voltage is needed to it. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...w=1&N=700+150+ But I have sent an email to MSD to ask how many volts and pulse it outputs.
I have one. It uses 5v. The LS1 PCM is 12v to cam sensor. It is a 1x signal. I purchased this a year or so ago and MSD told me that it is part of a discontinued trigger kit. I don't expect this to be available much longer.
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It appears the 7.4l "D" engine uses the LS1 pcm, coil packs.
I purchased that 7.4L engine on Monday and have been working with its crank timing ring. Being that the big block's crank is larger than the small block, and that the keyway may be slightly different, it is not a direct swap to the small block. But I may have a way to make it work. Give me a few weeks and may have this engine up and running with coil packs and electronic throttle.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 05-15-2008 at 11:53 AM.
2000 CHEVROLET KODIAK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 CHEVROLET MD BUS CHASSIS Any
2000 GMC MD BUS CHASSIS Any
2000 GMC TOPKICK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET MD BUS CHASSIS Any
1999 CHEVROLET P30 VAN V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1999 GMC MD BUS CHASSIS Any
1999 GMC P35/P3500 VAN V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1999 GMC TOPKICK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC TOPKICK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC TOPKICK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1998 CHEVROLET KODIAK C6500 4X2 C 2WD Any
1998 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 4X2 C 2WD Any
1998 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 6X4 C 2WD Any
1998 CHEVROLET P30 VAN V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1998 GMC P35/P3500 VAN V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1998 GMC TOPKICK C6500 4X2 C 2WD Any
1998 GMC TOPKICK C7500 4X2 C 2WD Any
1998 GMC TOPKICK C7500 6X4 C 2WD Any
Not at all! This is still all new. I just learned on Monday that there was a 7.4L big block with coil per cylinder!
I didnt know tell today when trying to find an oil drive with crank sensor.
I was trying to figure out why you were making a gear. Now I see. But I'm still confused as to why the L31 and LS1 have the same pcm, same OS..... Yet require a different crank signal. I'm trying to find in the tunes where this setting is changed. But I just cant find it.
I'm also trying to find a PCM for an L29 and L19 so I can look at them tunes. Having problems finding that.
So now, since I have to pull the motor to go to coil packs. I doubt I do it. But I'll still try to hunt n research for ones who do want to.
Ok, found an PCM off a 2000 7.4l motor. Decent price even shipped.
Now I gotta figure out how to make a desktop wire system. Or pray if I plug it into the car it wont fry it. Which I think I will be good for atleast scanning it.
Ok, found an PCM off a 2000 7.4l motor. Decent price even shipped.
Be careful, most 7.4L Vortec engines use the same 4x crank signal as the 5.7L Vortec engines. From what I can tell, only the medium duty trucks got the 7.4L with the 24x crank timing ring.
I have both small block and big block 4x crank rings (and the 24x big block ring). The difference between the two 4x rings is the inside diameter hole due to the larger crank in the big block. The keyway is also slightly different (probably due to the timing cover differences).
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Now I gotta figure out how to make a desktop wire system. Or pray if I plug it into the car it wont fry it. Which I think I will be good for atleast scanning it.
EFI Connection has benchtop programming harnesses through the website. Or I can offer just the parts to build one. Or you could send me the PCM and I can pull out the calibration with either TunerCat OBDII and/or EFILive. If you want me to help...
Be careful, most 7.4L Vortec engines use the same 4x crank signal as the 5.7L Vortec engines. From what I can tell, only the medium duty trucks got the 7.4L with the 24x crank timing ring....
Sweet, then thats exactly what I want!! 7.4tune with 4x crank. To bad you snatched that dizzy cap so quick If you find another, let me know please.
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Originally Posted by S10Wildside
EFI Connection has benchtop programming harnesses through the website. Or I can offer just the parts to build one. Or you could send me the PCM and I can pull out the calibration with either TunerCat OBDII and/or EFILive. If you want me to help...
I think it will be fine since its still a 411 with 2156 tune. Eventually I do plan to build a portable one with interchangeable PCM ends. I planned to email you the tune anyway
I'm still confused as to why the L31 and LS1 have the same pcm, same OS..... Yet require a different crank signal. I'm trying to find in the tunes where this setting is changed. But I just cant find it.
I gave up on this after seeing that the 4x system ignition module control comes out of the red PCM connector, cavity 26...and the 24x system uses the same circuit to control one of the coils. What I'm getting at is that the calibration in the Express Van makes a different use of that circuit than any Gen 3 engine. In my opinion, I think the ability to run coil per cylinder goes much deeper than the portion of the calibration that is exposed through EFILive (or HPTuners, Tunercat OBDII).
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To bad you snatched that dizzy cap so quick. If you find another, let me know please.
Sorry about that. There is at least one other engine we're going to try to convert to coil per cylinder in the very near future, so I'm picking up parts as I see them. When I find more, I'll let you know.
Here are a few pictures I took last night of the prototype engine after swapping the cam and heads.
The red convertible in the picture is the project vehicle that will get this engine.
The distributor is a billet version of the plastic Vortec distributor.
The coil brackets are a prototype and need revised.
No throttle linkage on the side...it's a Corvette electronic throttle body.
The 24x ring has been modified so that it will fit the small block crank.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 05-16-2008 at 08:34 AM.
No worry on the cap. First come first serve. But yea, if you see another, please let me know or grab it and I'll pay ya for it.
So your saying if I plan to run coil packs w/4x crank, Id need to re-pin it per the 7.4L C2500 wire diagram correct? Time to grease the palms at the local stealership.
Motor looks good.
Also in my findings. They're 2 different style of coil packs.. mount different and have different wire connectors.
No worry on the cap. First come first serve. But yea, if you see another, please let me know or grab it and I'll pay ya for it.
Found one. Sent you a PM with contact info to the ebay seller.
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So your saying if I plan to run coil packs w/4x crank, Id need to re-pin it per the 7.4L C2500 wire diagram correct?
I'm saying you should not plan to run coil packs with the 4x crank ring. The 7.4L big block with coil packs does not use a 4x crank ring. It uses a 24x crank ring. I have spent a lot of time thinking through the use of coil packs with the 4x ring and in my opinion I think it is impossible (reasons in previous post). GM never used the 4x ring for coil packs. You need the 24x ring.
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Also in my findings. They're 2 different style of coil packs.. mount different and have different wire connectors.
Do you have more details? The early LS1 used Denso brand coils, the trucks got different coils, and I think the gen 4 engines got other coils. My point is that there are several types of coils out there. I have heard of the newer truck coils being swapped onto earlier LS-style engines. From what I have seen so far, the coil pack harness is always pinned the same. So....it seems that you may be able to take any newer coil pack (being coils, harness, and bracket) and swap it onto an earlier LS-style engine.
If you find another, let me know please.
