TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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I will also be using a retro-roller, which is my main concern. I will need to use a timing set with torrington bearings and a thrust button, and Im not sure how well the plastic cover will stand up to the thrust button, and if I can fit a timing set that has torrington bearings within the vortec cover. I guess I could brace the front of the cover off of the water pump and hopefully the cover stands up to the cam button. The cam button will have bearings as well, so hopefully it wont dig its way into the plastic.
Also, do you have to shorten the balancer hub as well? I think the reluctor moves it a little further forward, no?
I think somewhere in the beginning of this post, some guys were using a LT4 chain. That's about the best you can do, I think.
Ron
With a retro-roller, it uses an older flat tappet style timing set. When I bought all the parts a year ago, I wasn't planning on using the SFI setup. Kinda wish I had bought the stuff afterward. Would've made life easier.
One thing Ive been tempted to try is the flying magnet hall effect crank trigger from Crane. The only thing is that the signal will be more of a pulse rather than a square wave, which leaves the question as to whether it can trigger the hardware in the PCM correctly. From the OBD DTC codes option table in my 98 PCM, the PCM not only monitors the system variance and correlation between the cam and crank sensors, but the duty cycle. Hopefully just relaxing these will be enough to allow the PCM to work with the aftermarket trigger wheel and hall effect. The other potential issue is the fact that the computer dynamically calculates the injector pulsewidth for each injector as each pulse is recieved from the crank position sensor, so it looks like the timing is fairly critical. The CKP interrupt in the PCM commands a lot of code to run and Im not quite sure what tolerances there are in the routine for delays and such.
Guess theres only one way to find out. Cough up a couple hundred and buy the aftermarket trigger system, and experiment with it.
can you get a trigger wheel made? If so, you can probably use a stock timing cover, and sandwich the wheel behind the pulley or balancer. You'd probably only need a wheel about 1/4" mild steel, and I think it can fit behind the balancer. You can use the same sensor, just mount it to a plate off of the oil pan rail or side of the timing cover. The timing wheel would have to look and be timed the same way as the 'under the cover part' S10wildside is building, just larger in diameter.
heck if you find a busted lsx crank(should be cheap, no?), you could maybe cut it out or whatever, and use that! hmm...they are pressed on or something aren't they?
I built a trigger wheel to fire a northstar coil pack and it works, I just never put it on an engine. I can get some pics if you are interested, but they are home. nevermind, I found the link: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...ight=northstar (DIS-sbc)
The thought crossed my mind to fabricate something, maybe similar to what is done with the aftermarket triggers. A window'd trigger wheel with an adjustable mount for the sensor. Id probably need to have it machined by someone to at least maintain the same tooth width and spacing so the PCM is happy. Not quite sure which is the easier path. The aftermarket hall-effect, or something home brewed. I think so long as the DC of the signal from the hall effect is enough to trigger the PCM, then the computer can probably be coaxed into operating with a sensor that doesnt quite match the OE spec.
so do you think i could get a mail order from pcmforless and have it work right till i get it to a tuner?
I don't see why not, but that's a PCMforLess question.
Quote:
i was going to go the way of no mass air or speed density since that seems the easiest choice
This is another item that should be discussed with the tuner before having a harness built. I've had a few guys order a harness without MAF and then later add it because the tuner insisted on it.
I saw a ls1 24x reluctor on ebay for around 30 bucks......make a center plate that matches the balancer bolt pattern and weld it to it. you could probably make that pretty thin, like 1/8" or so, and it wouldn't interfere with pulley alignment much.
I don't see why not, but that's a PCMforLess question.
This is another item that should be discussed with the tuner before having a harness built. I've had a few guys order a harness without MAF and then later add it because the tuner insisted on it.
S10Wildside has brought up some valid points. I personally would never trust a mail order tune of any aspect. I know there are some companies that claim they are very good as what they do, but they can not tune anyone's car 100% unless they get lucky. I would rather trust someone like S10Wildside than any company who charges alot of nothing.
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I saw a ls1 24x reluctor on ebay for around 30 bucks......make a center plate that matches the balancer bolt pattern and weld it to it. you could probably make that pretty thin, like 1/8" or so, and it wouldn't interfere with pulley alignment much.
I began mocking up that idea a few years ago. I even purchased a Corvette crank pulley (GM-14055116) because it is shorter than the f-body. Reasons I abandoned the idea...
You're creating a buzz saw off of the crank.
The LS1 ring is not balanced (but is balanced assembly when used with LS1 crank).
The timing ring is going to rust.
No adjustment available with GM sensors, bracket must adjust.
A fixed bracket requires an aftermarket adjustable sensor.
The setup we're currently using (with the 24x ring behind the Vortec timing cover) looks factory and uses a GM sensor. It doesn't get any better than that.
The setup we're currently using (with the 24x ring behind the Vortec timing cover) looks factory and uses a GM sensor. It doesn't get any better than that.
We have several prototypes and are working on a final production piece. We're also putting the system on my S10 in the upcoming weeks to get some road time and dyno time. After everything goes well, they should soon be available.
S10 valid points, but most are not that critical.....
you can powdercoat the ring, no rust there.....the reluctor could care less if non-metallic material was between it and the sensor. as for balance, that can be done before it's installed, and I can't believe it's that far off becuase the ring assembly has a bunch of holes drilled in it that have to part of the balance....
crank triggers are buzzsaws, and not too many incindents reported.
it wouldn't take much to make an adjustable bracket...easier than machining a reluctor ring for sure.
the nice thing about this way is that it could be tailored to any v-8 that might have a distributor......or engines that can't use the newer timing covers....
I agree that your method is nice and simple for guys running motors that can fit the timing covers (SBC, BBC). Just pointing out things for the DIY guys, that's all......
I obviously want to limit liability. Fortunately we have the option to put the ring behind the cover to eliminate the buzzsaw effect. I'm going to leave the external set up to the DIYers.
The rust on the ring (as well as an externally mounted sensor with brackets)was more of an appearance thing. I'm shooting for a universal small block (chevy) design...regardless of front accessory brackets being used. I tend to get fussy about quality and want to make available something that I would prefer to be on my own vehicles. That's why this is shaping up to appear like something that would have rolled off the assembly line. Simple....clean...easy...and most of the parts available at your local auto parts store.
The setup we're currently using (with the 24x ring behind the Vortec timing cover) looks factory and uses a GM sensor. It doesn't get any better than that.
Did you just use a factory part or did it have to be altered?
Did you just use a factory part or did it have to be altered?
GM does not make a 24x ring that fits on the small block. We have to alter a ring to make it work. Now we're looking into production of a piece that will require no alterations.
Not much help to the LS1 PCM users, but for the vortecs, it looks like the PCM may be more accomodating then I thought with the crank position sensor.
I was looking at the code in my black box PCM for P0337 (low CKP duty cycle) and P0338 (high duty cycle) and it appears that the limits set for the sensor duty cycle are between 3% and 91%. Looks like so long as teh pulses are evenly spaced, the PCM will still trigger OK provided that the pulses aren't so short that there isnt an internal timer edge during a pulse or so long that they bleed together. Went ahead and picked up the Crane 4 pulse hall effect crank trigger kit. Keeping my fingers crossed that it'll work...
I found that the donor harness does not have to be the same as the main car
All swaps on here have been TPI cars, they can use TPI, TBI, or V6 donor harnesses
The only concern is with factory manual cars as the reverse lights go thru the C100 connector
Swap cars retrofit the automatic wiring and are not affected
This will save alot of headaches for SD TPI guys so they dont have to track down a hard to find and expensive harness to cut everything TPI about it off
S10Wildside showed a cutdown and prepped harness
It can actually go ALOT farther so essentially just be a carb harness
This is a donor from a 92 V6 car
Starting on the left and going clockwise
GRD
ALT
Coolant gauge
Starter
Oil pressure to gauge
Tach and coil power
Fan relay
Fuel relay
I removed the brake sensor plug. My brakes are not factory and have no provision so there is no point in wiring it in
I cut and lengthened the relay wires to move them into the car next to the PCM
After alot of tracing I came up with this
Pin G8 is confusing because both the fan relay and ALT signal both join there
The oil switch was confusing because it uses 3 wires while vortec trucks use only one
Here is a detail and how the orange and gray wires can be removed
Im still unsure why the factory made this circuit about 4 feet longer than necessary
Here is a fan relay
These can be salvaged from any 3rd gen V6 (correct wire length) and most 80's GM cars
You do not have to cut up a factory dual fan harness to get these
For the PCM
LS1 and 3rd gen pinouts are plentiful and easy to find via google or forums
The Express van pinout is a bit more tricky to come by unless you were lucky to pull them from the truck forum before they were quickly taken down
Left LS1 Middle my harness Right Express
Here is a condensed version
Even more simple than the factory ECM
R53 was part of the traction control for LS1 fbodys
There was discussion in the truck forums for using with nitrous retard
Use it or not, it seemed too handy to skip
Now for the harness
It is very simple when you think about it
About 90% done, I still need the HO2 plugs
About the vortec harness:
You dont need a whole one
If it is already removed just take the whole thing
For junk yard shopping you can just pull bits and thankfully all pieces can come from the super plentiful 4.3L V6
Connectors needed:
IGN module plug - 4 pin black
Coil plug - 3 pin brown
Cam position sensor plug (distributor) - 3 pin black/white cap
Crank position sensor plug - 3 pin black/white cap
2x flat HO2 sensor plugs - 4 pin black
4L60E and 4L80E connectors are needed for the respective trans used
Note about terminals:
20-22ga wire GM #12084913
18 ga wire GM #12084912
GM parts have gone up extensively
Terminals come in packs of 10 and are $4.30 per unit... ouch
GMpartsdirect is signifigantly cheaper at $1.12 per unit... ouch
EFIConnection is the cheapest at $.50 each
This is the culmination of about 4 months of research, I hope it helps someone
The images are hard to read so I have reattached them
If someone would like an AutoCAD file of the engine diagram, PM me
S10,
I wish I could say I have had any luck with a distributor with my Holley Stealth ram but I haven't I fear I am going in the route of thruster dfi. I will put my harness and all the componeents neccesary up for sale as I can't let my car sit any longer. I truley wanted this to work for me but there comes a time to move forward.
Anyone intrested in the harness, distrubuotr, reluctor ring, ecm, timing ocver and waterever else im forgetting pm with a price.
S10,
I wish I could say I have had any luck with a distributor with my Holley Stealth ram but I haven't I fear I am going in the route of thruster dfi. I will put my harness and all the componeents neccesary up for sale as I can't let my car sit any longer. I truley wanted this to work for me but there comes a time to move forward.
Anyone intrested in the harness, distrubuotr, reluctor ring, ecm, timing ocver and waterever else im forgetting pm with a price.
http://s521.photobucket.com/albums/w...afilter=images Mine is just about ready to go in. But learning curve real high. Got a lot of extra parts: 2 lt1 manifolds, vortec timing chain, roller lifters, extra tpi manifold, two 411 pcms', zz4 cam, mad wife...... you get the idea. Hopefully, I can unload some of the extras on ebay.
http://s521.photobucket.com/albums/w...afilter=images Mine is just about ready to go in. But learning curve real high. Got a lot of extra parts: 2 lt1 manifolds, vortec timing chain, roller lifters, extra tpi manifold, two 411 pcms', zz4 cam, mad wife...... you get the idea. Hopefully, I can unload some of the extras on ebay.
Not interested in the mad wife, I've already got one and find one quite enough. However, I am interested in the 411pcm.
I was just down at MC Racing the other day and took some pictures. They got rid of the opti. It has an lt4 intake, and a vortec distributor, coupled to a ls1 computer. All the distributor does is distribute the spark. It is also controlling a 4l80e. It is working out great. Dyno numbers to come.
shocker89bird the HSR fuel rails can be easily modified for this swap. I have done it. Want pics? All you need to a remote mounted FPR, 2 1/4 NPT to -6AN fittings, a 1/4 NPT tap and drill bit and another short length of fuel rail from Holley. All you need to do is drill and tap the bottoms of the fuel rails and use the plugs Holley gives you for the ends. Install the adapters and fab up a crossover tube. Now the crossover exits the bottom with room for the crab cap. Now mount the regulator on the fender and plumb your feed and return lines. Done!!!
i just thought i would share, my 92 z is now an OBDII car. got it running last friday, the 12th. got some tuning done wednesday night through a friend of mine. it is driveable and has a real smooth idle, as well as good throttle response. its still a touch rich just for safety reasons until more tuning is done, and even some on the dyno. the swap really wasnt too hard, but i did have help from someone who had done it before. i cant wait to get the final tune on it and go give it a rightful test
i believe its the same as any other one. you need the #1 cylinder to be at top dead center and have the rotor pointing toward that cylinder. the only hard part is that you have to line up the oil pump with the bottom of the distributor and you have to have it within 3 degrees or the computer will give you an error. hope that helps
Thats the the hard part. Getting the 2 sensors within less then 2degs of each other.
Otherwise, it stabs in just like a normal dizzy.
The base has to be strait forward.. On a new dizzy it has a white mark to help you.
Then the rotor button has to be pointed as close as you can get it to the "8" mark stamped in the dizzy... w/o rotating the base.
Bring cylinder number one piston to Top Dead Center (TDC) of compression stroke.
Remove the distributor cap bolts and discard. <LI type=1>Remove the distributor cap.
Install a NEW distributor gasket onto the distributor.
Align the indent hole on the driven gear with the paint mark on the distributor housing. Ensure that the distributor rotor segment points to the cap hold area.
Align the slotted tang in the oil pump driveshaft with the distributor driveshaft. Rotate the oil pump driveshaft with a screwdriver if necessary. Align the flat (1) in the distributor housing toward the front of the engine. Install the distributor and distributor clamp.
Once the distributor is fully seated, align the distributor rotor segment with the number 8 pointer that is cast into the distributor base. If the distributor rotor segment does not come within a few degrees of the number 8 pointer, the gear mesh between the distributor and camshaft may be off a tooth or more. Repeat the procedure in order to achieve proper alignment.
Notice: Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.
Install the distributor clamp bolt.
Tighten
Tighten the distributor clamp bolt to 25 N·m (18 lb ft).
Install the distributor cap onto the distributor. <LI type=1>Install the NEW distributor cap bolts. Do not overtighten the NEW distributor cap bolts.
Tighten
Tighten the distributor cap bolts to 2.4 N·m (21 lb in).
Install the ignition coil wire harness.
I cant get the relearn to function....
Any ideas what I am doing wrong??
Temp--180
VSS--0
TPS--0
Trans in Park
Only DTC reported is P1336 it is listed a few times.
Hit F12
Choose 99-08 PCM
Hit activate
Learning Tab
Hold brake
Hit CASE
EFI Live does nothing when I hit the CASE button????
Someone with EFI Live and who has done this 411 swap can you please load PID CMPRET and upload the scan. I am constantly reading -45.xx degrees. Seems impossible since the car runs and I stabbed the dizzy in 3 times following the proceedure.
Slow... in a week or so, I can do that for you. right now my car is not running since I have a sensor plug bad. I just ordered a new one so it will be a few days before its in and can work on it.
I have finay read through this thread!! There is a lot of good info here, but also a lot that is extraneous. I think part of the problem is people asking specific questions about various comdinations or modifications other than an L98 with a stock looking distributor. For this swap to get by a smog check in California, it must look stock for the visual inspection. I'm wondering if it would be possible to have the basic info for conveting an L98 or Lb9 incorporated into a tech article on this site? Then this sticky could be for people to ask specific questions about their specific combo. If there is a tech article on another site, could someone post a link. At this point I'm staying with my stock L98, but as GM discontinues smog parts for our cars and the aftermarket doesn't make replacements, we may be forced to either convert to an obdII system or swap in an Ls1 in order to keep the car legal in Cali.
Thanks Dale, I'll check back a few pages. I think it might get past the smog nazis. If it turns on the check engine light on start up and then shuts it off a couple of seconds after the engine starts, and it looks stock and like everything is there, no one checks the ecm. The egr valve would be different, but it is buried under the plenum anyway, so they probably would not notice. Also most smog techs out here got their license by taking a course at a junior college. In most cases they are not mechanics, and they have to be able to inspect and test every make, model, and engine combination of every road car sold in California since 1976. They can look up in a book to see what equipment is required, but since most are on some sort of commission basis, if it looks ok under the hood and runs the numbers on the dyno, they pass it.
EGR. Nobody has made the egr work besides me. I had to pull it off because the solder ended up melting and blowing my pipes off. Working on getting it back on, but something else is up with the car right now and not idling. That comes first.
If you can get it to go thru, sweet!!! I have no doubt that a fine tuned version of this will be more smog friendly then the stock system.
First, I just remembered (in the middle of the night, nevertheless) that my '86 uses an LT1 harness...but it was converted to OBDI from OBDII, and the harness is a '97...meaning it has the crank position sensor wiring and all the OBDII LT1 stuff. I have the schematics for it, I should be able to change a couple things (ALDL, opti wiring to distributor) and repin the harness for the 0411, right? It's already completely installed and running with no trouble codes, and the engine is coming out soon for some engine compartment beautification and other details. It runs a '97 SS harness, 4L60-E, and LT1 with a tuned port Accel base on it.
I need to retune it, I dont think my tuner knew what he was doing. I am seriously thinking about this now, since my 383 has a crank position sensor, and I have a distributor and the other goodies to make it work. I would be interested in a tuned PCM, if anyone here could tune one for me (to get me close and running until I can afford to get EFI live). I dont think the LT1 tuners online know how to tune an LT1 PCM for a TPI motor, lol...and you guys know what needs to be done.
Also, Wildside, can you PM me the details on that crank position sensor and your ramjet over to me? I was wondering about the coilpacks and everything....isnt that just a custom LS1 firing order camshaft with that sensor in place? I dont think it requires a special crank, does it? I havent settled on these items for my 427, would be a nice thing to look at since I'll be spending the money anyway.
