scuzz

I think somewhere in the beginning of this post, some guys were using a LT4 chain. That's about the best you can do, I think.
Ron

dimented24x7

With a retro-roller, it uses an older flat tappet style timing set. When I bought all the parts a year ago, I wasn't planning on using the SFI setup. Kinda wish I had bought the stuff afterward. Would've made life easier.

One thing Ive been tempted to try is the flying magnet hall effect crank trigger from Crane. The only thing is that the signal will be more of a pulse rather than a square wave, which leaves the question as to whether it can trigger the hardware in the PCM correctly. From the OBD DTC codes option table in my 98 PCM, the PCM not only monitors the system variance and correlation between the cam and crank sensors, but the duty cycle. Hopefully just relaxing these will be enough to allow the PCM to work with the aftermarket trigger wheel and hall effect. The other potential issue is the fact that the computer dynamically calculates the injector pulsewidth for each injector as each pulse is recieved from the crank position sensor, so it looks like the timing is fairly critical. The CKP interrupt in the PCM commands a lot of code to run and Im not quite sure what tolerances there are in the routine for delays and such.

Guess theres only one way to find out. Cough up a couple hundred and buy the aftermarket trigger system, and experiment with it.

jwscab

can you get a trigger wheel made? If so, you can probably use a stock timing cover, and sandwich the wheel behind the pulley or balancer. You'd probably only need a wheel about 1/4" mild steel, and I think it can fit behind the balancer. You can use the same sensor, just mount it to a plate off of the oil pan rail or side of the timing cover. The timing wheel would have to look and be timed the same way as the 'under the cover part' S10wildside is building, just larger in diameter.

heck if you find a busted lsx crank(should be cheap, no?), you could maybe cut it out or whatever, and use that! hmm...they are pressed on or something aren't they?

I built a trigger wheel to fire a northstar coil pack and it works, I just never put it on an engine. I can get some pics if you are interested, but they are home. nevermind, I found the link:
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...ight=northstar (DIS-sbc)

around post 35 I posted the pics.

dimented24x7

The thought crossed my mind to fabricate something, maybe similar to what is done with the aftermarket triggers. A window'd trigger wheel with an adjustable mount for the sensor. Id probably need to have it machined by someone to at least maintain the same tooth width and spacing so the PCM is happy. Not quite sure which is the easier path. The aftermarket hall-effect, or something home brewed. I think so long as the DC of the signal from the hall effect is enough to trigger the PCM, then the computer can probably be coaxed into operating with a sensor that doesnt quite match the OE spec.

S10Wildside

I don't see why not, but that's a PCMforLess question.

This is another item that should be discussed with the tuner before having a harness built. I've had a few guys order a harness without MAF and then later add it because the tuner insisted on it.

jwscab

I saw a ls1 24x reluctor on ebay for around 30 bucks......make a center plate that matches the balancer bolt pattern and weld it to it. you could probably make that pretty thin, like 1/8" or so, and it wouldn't interfere with pulley alignment much.

ibmtech

S10Wildside has brought up some valid points. I personally would never trust a mail order tune of any aspect. I know there are some companies that claim they are very good as what they do, but they can not tune anyone's car 100% unless they get lucky. I would rather trust someone like S10Wildside than any company who charges alot of nothing.

__________________
(ENGINE) 355 SBC - TPIS MiniRam - AFR 210 75cc Full CNC - BBK 58mm TB - JE Forged Pistons - Scat H-Rods - Eagle 4340 Crank - Crower 00482LM Cam - Vortech S/C @ 18LB - 10k RPM Nitrous Kit
(TRANSMISSION) Vigilante 2600 Stall Convertor - 700R4 Rebuild Kit Pro Street Elite by Pro Built PN# PSERK70088
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(INTERIOR) Cyberdyne Digital Dash - Pioneer MP3 / DVD Player - (2) 1500+ Watts Rockford AMPS
More Forged than plastic - Way 2 Much 2 List..
Some Say I am

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S10Wildside

I began mocking up that idea a few years ago. I even purchased a Corvette crank pulley (GM-14055116) because it is shorter than the f-body. Reasons I abandoned the idea...

• You're creating a buzz saw off of the crank.
• The LS1 ring is not balanced (but is balanced assembly when used with LS1 crank).
• The timing ring is going to rust.
• No adjustment available with GM sensors, bracket must adjust.
• A fixed bracket requires an aftermarket adjustable sensor.

The setup we're currently using (with the 24x ring behind the Vortec timing cover) looks factory and uses a GM sensor. It doesn't get any better than that.

gixxer92

Please let me know how to get one.

Thanks

S10Wildside

We have several prototypes and are working on a final production piece. We're also putting the system on my S10 in the upcoming weeks to get some road time and dyno time. After everything goes well, they should soon be available.

jwscab

S10 valid points, but most are not that critical.....

you can powdercoat the ring, no rust there.....the reluctor could care less if non-metallic material was between it and the sensor. as for balance, that can be done before it's installed, and I can't believe it's that far off becuase the ring assembly has a bunch of holes drilled in it that have to part of the balance....

crank triggers are buzzsaws, and not too many incindents reported.

it wouldn't take much to make an adjustable bracket...easier than machining a reluctor ring for sure.

the nice thing about this way is that it could be tailored to any v-8 that might have a distributor......or engines that can't use the newer timing covers....

I agree that your method is nice and simple for guys running motors that can fit the timing covers (SBC, BBC). Just pointing out things for the DIY guys, that's all......

S10Wildside

jwscab, I'm in agreement with you.

I obviously want to limit liability. Fortunately we have the option to put the ring behind the cover to eliminate the buzzsaw effect. I'm going to leave the external set up to the DIYers.

The rust on the ring (as well as an externally mounted sensor with brackets)was more of an appearance thing. I'm shooting for a universal small block (chevy) design...regardless of front accessory brackets being used. I tend to get fussy about quality and want to make available something that I would prefer to be on my own vehicles. That's why this is shaping up to appear like something that would have rolled off the assembly line. Simple....clean...easy...and most of the parts available at your local auto parts store.

__________________
http://www.eficonnection.com


1991 Trans Am Convertible (Project)
5.0L TPI Engine, T5


2000 Firehawk
Trans Am, SLP Firehawk, LS1, 4l60E

novajoe

Did you just use a factory part or did it have to be altered?

S10Wildside

GM does not make a 24x ring that fits on the small block. We have to alter a ring to make it work. Now we're looking into production of a piece that will require no alterations.

dimented24x7

Not much help to the LS1 PCM users, but for the vortecs, it looks like the PCM may be more accomodating then I thought with the crank position sensor.

I was looking at the code in my black box PCM for P0337 (low CKP duty cycle) and P0338 (high duty cycle) and it appears that the limits set for the sensor duty cycle are between 3% and 91%. Looks like so long as teh pulses are evenly spaced, the PCM will still trigger OK provided that the pulses aren't so short that there isnt an internal timer edge during a pulse or so long that they bleed together. Went ahead and picked up the Crane 4 pulse hall effect crank trigger kit. Keeping my fingers crossed that it'll work...

Pocket

Getting back to the 0411 swap

I found that the donor harness does not have to be the same as the main car
All swaps on here have been TPI cars, they can use TPI, TBI, or V6 donor harnesses
The only concern is with factory manual cars as the reverse lights go thru the C100 connector
Swap cars retrofit the automatic wiring and are not affected

This will save alot of headaches for SD TPI guys so they dont have to track down a hard to find and expensive harness to cut everything TPI about it off

S10Wildside showed a cutdown and prepped harness
http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s..._Separated.jpg

It can actually go ALOT farther so essentially just be a carb harness


This is a donor from a 92 V6 car
Starting on the left and going clockwise
GRD
ALT
Coolant gauge
Starter
Oil pressure to gauge
Tach and coil power
Fan relay
Fuel relay
I removed the brake sensor plug. My brakes are not factory and have no provision so there is no point in wiring it in

I cut and lengthened the relay wires to move them into the car next to the PCM

http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=19
This site was extremely helpful in spelling out the factory harnesses although it left out the 90-92 C207

After alot of tracing I came up with this

Pin G8 is confusing because both the fan relay and ALT signal both join there

The oil switch was confusing because it uses 3 wires while vortec trucks use only one
Here is a detail and how the orange and gray wires can be removed
Im still unsure why the factory made this circuit about 4 feet longer than necessary


Here is a fan relay
These can be salvaged from any 3rd gen V6 (correct wire length) and most 80's GM cars
You do not have to cut up a factory dual fan harness to get these


For the PCM
LS1 and 3rd gen pinouts are plentiful and easy to find via google or forums
The Express van pinout is a bit more tricky to come by unless you were lucky to pull them from the truck forum before they were quickly taken down
Left LS1 Middle my harness Right Express



Here is a condensed version
Even more simple than the factory ECM

R53 was part of the traction control for LS1 fbodys
There was discussion in the truck forums for using with nitrous retard
Use it or not, it seemed too handy to skip


Now for the harness
It is very simple when you think about it


About 90% done, I still need the HO2 plugs


About the vortec harness:
You dont need a whole one
If it is already removed just take the whole thing
For junk yard shopping you can just pull bits and thankfully all pieces can come from the super plentiful 4.3L V6

Connectors needed:
IGN module plug - 4 pin black
Coil plug - 3 pin brown
Cam position sensor plug (distributor) - 3 pin black/white cap
Crank position sensor plug - 3 pin black/white cap
2x flat HO2 sensor plugs - 4 pin black
4L60E and 4L80E connectors are needed for the respective trans used

Note about terminals:
20-22ga wire GM #12084913
18 ga wire GM #12084912

GM parts have gone up extensively
Terminals come in packs of 10 and are $4.30 per unit... ouch
GMpartsdirect is signifigantly cheaper at $1.12 per unit... ouch
EFIConnection is the cheapest at $.50 each

This is the culmination of about 4 months of research, I hope it helps someone

The images are hard to read so I have reattached them
If someone would like an AutoCAD file of the engine diagram, PM me

Attached Images

	C100 C207.PNG (51.5 KB, 20 views)
	blue.PNG (73.5 KB, 18 views)
	red.PNG (83.9 KB, 9 views)

Pocket

More images

Attached Images

	condensed.PNG (51.3 KB, 20 views)
	0411 diagram.PNG (147.0 KB, 22 views)

novajoe

Very good information I will start scavaning parts soon

S10Wildside

Taking the LS1 PCM in another direction...1992 GMC Typhoon! (This one took a few days to build.)

• 12200411 PCM (loaded with 2002 S-10 4.3L calibration)
• 4L60E
• Waste Gate Solenoid and Charge Air Cooler Pump control must be independent of PCM

shocker89bird

S10,
I wish I could say I have had any luck with a distributor with my Holley Stealth ram but I haven't I fear I am going in the route of thruster dfi. I will put my harness and all the componeents neccesary up for sale as I can't let my car sit any longer. I truley wanted this to work for me but there comes a time to move forward.

Anyone intrested in the harness, distrubuotr, reluctor ring, ecm, timing ocver and waterever else im forgetting pm with a price.

novajoe

Sent you a PM

wgeous

http://s521.photobucket.com/albums/w...afilter=images Mine is just about ready to go in. But learning curve real high. Got a lot of extra parts: 2 lt1 manifolds, vortec timing chain, roller lifters, extra tpi manifold, two 411 pcms', zz4 cam, mad wife...... you get the idea. Hopefully, I can unload some of the extras on ebay.

Dale

I wouldnt mind another TPI base. Is it centerbolt/non CSI?

sol_searcher

Not interested in the mad wife, I've already got one and find one quite enough. However, I am interested in the 411pcm.