TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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Has there been any progress on the DIS stuff that was mentioned a few pages ago?
The guy who's supposed to make the adapter I need hasn't. And I'm now going to put priority to getting my S-10 back on the road. I've been putting it off for three years. While coil packs on a gen 1 SBC are possible (using the LS1 electronics), it's going to be a little tricky to get it set up. I have no intentions of making or selling a kit. Because it's not as simple as setting up on a LS1 engine (where everything pretty much falls into place), I can only imaging the number of phone calls and email asking for support. Because no one else is doing this, I'm stepping up (in my available time) to make it work. I did make the decision to put a 6.0L gen 3 engine in my S-10, so it's a little less incentive...but I still want to make it all happen.
My focus is harness work...and that's enough to keep me overwhelming busy.
EFI Connection is working toward the gen 4 ECMs and the available time to do so is almost prohibitive.
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1. Assuming I am willing to put the ecm where my ac is(removing ac), will all the wires lay/fit in place? Have one of you edit out the maf sensor, adjust for my vss tell I can afford EFILive?
The factory harness will probably not be a good fit. Unfortunately you won't know until you lay it on the engine. Three conversions mentioned in this thread have eliminated the MAF sensor. The only harness I built with MAF was for Scuzz.
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2. How does the coil/module bolt down?
You'll have to make a custom bracket. This should be pretty straight forward. I'm building the harnesses expecting the coil/module to be located near the original 87-92 f-body TPI setup.
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3. I have to move my o2 holes to one on each downpipe correct, and do I HAVE to use heated ones, or can I get away for a month or so with regulars? What about the post cat sensors?
If you do not use heated o2 sensors, you'll throw trouble codes. You may be able to eliminate the trouble codes with EFILive (or other tuning software), but I don't know what that will affect. You can remove the post cat sensors (after eliminating them in the tune).
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4. Sense I have an electronic speedo that feeds from the ecm, how do I control it? Appears most of the cars so far where mechanical ones?
The 411 has two VSS outputs that can be configured in the tune. This needs to be addressed with the tuner.
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5. I have unknown cam, that appears quite bumpy and feel my flexing vac gauge is from the cam. This ecm can handle that right? Appears some of you have nice cams (I dont know v8 cam specs yet).
Yes, the PCM can handle the cam, but will require custom tuning with data logging.
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6. EGR? Dont the new trucks have digital egr, where ours is vac?
If you can find a way to incorporate the newer EGR to the TPI manifold, I suppose you can use EGR.
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Anything else that may be brought up from these questions, spew it please.
Be careful about a budget build. Any shortcuts can become frustrating when trying to make them work. "Expensive" is relative, but if you have all the equipment and knowledge to do it yourself, it can be done on a budget.
If you...
- have tuning software
- know how to properly use tuning software
- can understand wiring diagrams
- have experience with EFI systems
- buy used parts
... then you can do this conversion on a tight budget.
If you...
- have a new harness
- use new parts
- have a knowledgeable tuner
...then the swap will go much smoother.
Over the past few years I've talked with a lot of people who have had EFI conversion problems due to using used parts (a "good buy" on ebay). I see a lot of shortcuts that don't work out well. Please keep this in mind.
thanks for your response. Just going over a few of the things..
1. I thought thats the way the first swap was done was using a factory harness? Good deal on the maf delete.
2. Got it.
3. Ok. So spend the 100-120 up front cause I'm gonna have to go to them anyway.
4. So it will run it, just needs to be programmed for the proper cluster. Something I thought of last night, they can be adjusted for different gear ratios too correct?
5. Problemo, because that 750 up front will be the hardest hit, and I have ZERO experience with prom/ecm stuff. I would be more willing to spend the 750 if it worked with GTP's But then I still have zero experience.
6. This one I was more asking what has been done in the other swaps? Do we think trying to fab up the digital would be more efficient?
I have no way but to do this on a budget. I have lots of tools, space, plenty of wire experience(not full harness builds, but splicing two together), just not ecm/prom changing experience. So it sounds like this will be my downfall, and the biggest MUST HAVE.
BTW, are you referring to "gen 4 ecms" as the ones that have FFV in them?
anyone know the part number for the correct Vortec timing cover?
Junk yards are full of the 96-2000 or so 350 and 305 cores. A used one works great. Get the crank reluctor, distributor, coil, and maf while you are there.
Around GA, that's about 25.00-50.00 worth.
They got the funky lookin intakes with throttle body stickin up like a smoke stack, and the injectors are hidden inside intake. Dizy looks like a crab.
Ron
The current price for a custom 3rd gen 411 harness is $600.00. I don't expect this price to increase in the near future. However, as the costs to make the harnesses rise, so will the price.
Will these Vortec distributors fit behind a stealth ram. Its already tight back there with the small cap dizzy. Are they much larger then a small cap dizzy? Is there a way/instructions to mod the stock one with a cam sensor if the vortech cap wont work????
Craig or anyone else thats done this. Can you go into more detail as to what is needed to make a double row timing chain fit behind the vortec cover.
I have a 96 305 vortec in my truck and the timing chain is shot so I bought a summit double row that they said would fit. After reading this post Im not so sure.
Also, how hard would it be to convert my ecm from the stocker to this newer LS based one?
Craig or anyone else thats done this. Can you go into more detail as to what is needed to make a double row timing chain fit behind the vortec cover.
I have a 96 305 vortec in my truck and the timing chain is shot so I bought a summit double row that they said would fit. After reading this post Im not so sure.
Also, how hard would it be to convert my ecm from the stocker to this newer LS based one?
Go read this forum, and it might answer a ton of questions. The guys on this forum have done your conversion several times. http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewto...ae996918c06668
Lextech, that posts here also has done a wonderful job on the truck changeover and has a spreadsheet built for the wiring changeover. Make friends with him. He knows what he's doing.
Read a page or two back in this thread...it looks like a .150" shim/spacer between the timing gear and reluctor should give enough clearance for the double roller.
It's funny I was just discussing at lunch with a few friends about my options for computer upgrades on my 89 formula. Talked over whether megasuirt or the comamnder 950 was the best route and too bad I couldn't run an LS1 pcm. Now I have the basic answers I needed. Sounds liek you guys are working on what I need fro the double roller as well. I was jsut thinking how hopless things were and that I didn't want to do a third wiring harness but I don't mind if the benifit is going to be gen 3 technology.
I didn't know there were that many third gen guys in Illinois. Good to see.
sooo... is there anything that would keep a person from buying a complete harness/PCM/sensors/etc. from an 01-02 express and being able to get close to startup without too many problems???
sooo... is there anything that would keep a person from buying a complete harness/PCM/sensors/etc. from an 01-02 express and being able to get close to startup without too many problems???
If you had all that stuff, you'd almost be there, except for harness. The original harness is a mess.
I started from that point and had to get S10Wildside to build a harness, but used all the rest of my stuff.
A package deal from junk yard is usually the first place to start. Don't forget timing cover, reluctor, harmonic balancer, dist, and coil.
You might get S10Wildside to use some of your connectors. Wouldn't hurt to ask.
Ron
I started reading about this conversion on here a couple weeks ago...you guys have made some awesome progress. I've also read the truck link. Got a couple of questions...one I've seen but not definitive answer. I'm converting an 87 formula but doing an engine conversion from 305 to 355 in the process. The 355 started life (before rebuild) as a 99 vortec truck motor so i have all the factory required parts...
1- got a HSR to go on the motor. will my crab distributor (99 truck) fit behind the HSR or will i have to mod the factory TPI one?
2 - location of ECM. I like the clean look of putting the ECM inside but could I locate it in the engine compartment like a 4th gen? Anyone got pics? Could I put it where my cold air box/charcoal canister is? (passengers side behind headlight)
3 - cruise control. Could diagnose my non functional factory cruise but I'd prefer to update to the later model type since I don't feel like having all the vacuum crap for the stock cruise. The truck style I think is controlled by the ECM? Might have been Body Controlled in 99 but I'd expect that in the 411 ECM, its integrated.
4 - charcoal canister. is it easier just to get the truck one and have it hooked up that way...looking to minimize the number of vacuum lines running all over the engine compartment (wish GM had thought of that in 87 )
Thanks for any ideas you guys have. S10Wildside...that is an awesome truck...will be contacting you once i've got some answers to order up a harness...got my 411 ECM already :rockon:
PS...got access to mitchell on demand if anyone needs wiring diagrams The ones for third gens aren't so great (factory didn't release good diagrams then) but the newer stuff rocks....
__________________ 89 formula 5 spd, orignally tbi. Motor and pcm taken from an 87 iroc. 355 4 bolt,hsr, afr 195 heads, gmpp .480 lift at .5oo, 235 duration at .050 116 lobe sep. 24lb inj., 52 mm bbk tb,1 3/4 wrapped, headers, 3 in force 2 cat back, custom CAI, gutted mas, 3.o8 open diff.
You might get S10Wildside to use some of your connectors. Wouldn't hurt to ask.
Ron
EFI Connection buys these connectors in such large quantities that it isn't worth reusing old, dirty, and sometimes brittle, connectors. I've gotten away from reworking used harnesses because it's a dirty job (maybe I can hire Mike Rowe? Ha!). Used connectors are often messy as well.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-02-2007 at 04:01 PM.
So S10 yours had single roller timing chain? Is it going to be more work to switch back to a single chain or is it simple to keep the cloyes double roller that I have? I mean the thing didn't even bolt up to the block with out maching lol.
I am plannign on checking junkyards today and possibly tomorrow for parts. Is your list form the beggining of the thread still accurate? Any issues with the latger balancer? Is the weight different?
So S10 yours had single roller timing chain? Is it going to be more work to switch back to a single chain or is it simple to keep the cloyes double roller that I have? I mean the thing didn't even bolt up to the block with out maching lol.
Yes, my test engine has the stock chain. Others working on the double roller chain with the reluctor. I've not experienced the double roller yet to see the clearance issues in person.
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I am plannign on checking junkyards today and possibly tomorrow for parts. Is your list form the beggining of the thread still accurate? Any issues with the latger balancer? Is the weight different?
Yes, the list is accurate. My test engine had no issues with the Vortec balancer. The weight is probably different due the noticable larger diameter of the vortec balancer.
Yes, my test engine has the stock chain. Others working on the double roller chain with the reluctor. I've not experienced the double roller yet to see the clearance issues in person.
Hopefully I can adress this issue or here from others on what they have done. I just want to drive my Formula again.
Yes, the list is accurate. My test engine had no issues with the Vortec balancer. The weight is probably different due the noticable larger diameter of the vortec balancer.
Thanks for your help. I have been having fuel issues feeding my motor ever since I switched over to my afr heads. My pcm kept throwing a feul pump relay code even though all the wiring had been upgraded it didn't fix the problem. everything had been replaced, fuel pump, regualtor, injectors, everything. The only thing left was the ecu or the prom.
This upgrade also keeps my power options open to run serious power with the daily drivability of a stock gm tune. I am glad there are guys liek you to take the initiative to go out and do things like this that there is an obvious need for. The wiring is not a big deal as I have done it twice since I have uprage from stock tpi to the stealth ram. Any other hicups you for see possible with the switch over parts? Did you end up running msd wires or anything like that?
These conversions have been using the 01-02 Express Van oxygen sensors. The idea is that the PCM is loaded with the Express Van operating system, so why not use the Express Van O2 sensors.
Let me suggest that the O2 sensors from the Camaro/Firebird will probably work, but they use different connectors (but wired the same to the PCM). The Corvette sensors use the same connector as the Express Van.
Please look beyond what vehicle the sensors were used with. The O2 sensor simply returns a voltage to the PCM that represents the air/fuel mixture. Zero volts being lean, 1.0 volt being rich. The Corvette sensor is no better than the Express Van sensor.
I've been keeping an eye on this Post, Great Job. Beats trying to add a Opti to the TPI and using the 5081.
As far as the EGR goes, what about using an adapter plate like they do with carbs & intakes. What I can tell from pics of the gaskets, the ports are the same just different mounting. I will have to check with the local autoparts store and see what the difference in height is and determine how much room I have to work with.
As far as the EGR goes, what about using an adapter plate like they do with carbs & intakes. What I can tell from pics of the gaskets, the ports are the same just different mounting. I will have to check with the local autoparts store and see what the difference in height is and determine how much room I have to work with.
All the egrs I have dealt with so far were considerbly taller then the UFO style. Now maybe scrounging around the junkyard can provide a good find.
I've been receiving some feedback regarding the cost of this harness. I would like to expand on my previous post regarding the $600.00 price tag.
Being that this system uses the LS1 PCM, the harness is basically a LS1 harness without the coil pack wiring. The top three most popular names in EFI harnesses will charge $700-750 for an LS1 harness.
We will also sell an LS1 harness for the 3rd gen f-body for $600. Add $50.00 for drive by wire. Compare that to the $800.00 price tag of other harness manufacturers.
EFI Connection is charging far less for a very similar harness and including the correct connections under the dash for the 3rd gen f-body. Some harness manufacturers save a few bucks by excluding some secondary connector locks, PCM connector dress covers, and some other equipment found on original harnesses. EFI Connection harnesses include all necessary secondary locks to provide the same quality as the original harnesses.
I'm not suggesting $700-800 is too much to pay for a quality engine harness. It's actually a very fair price considering the cost to build a harness (materials, time, research, support, reordering supplies, "keeping the lights on", etc).
Our aim will continue to be to offer the same or better quality harness at a very competitive price.
I understand that price is not affordable for everyone, but EFI Connection can't afford to do it for less. Heck, I was just quoted $5k to replace the water system in my home. I can't afford it, so I came home today with all the parts to do the work myself for just over $3k. Having never done this before, I'm sure I'll wish I could afford the labor to have someone else do the work. But I'll get through it. In the same way, if the price of a new harness is not affordable, you should be able to rework a used L31 harness for much less.
Reworking a used harness is not completely overwhelming if you spend several hours comparing wiring diagrams and gathering supplies. http://www.eficonnection.com should have any missing items you may need if you choose to rework a used harness. Unfortunately I'm not reworking used harnesses because they're not a very good fit to the TPI manifold. It would take less time for me to build a new harness (and that's still a long time).
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-04-2007 at 06:43 PM.
I've been receiving some feedback regarding the cost of this harness. I would like to expand on my previous post regarding the $600.00 price tag.
Being that this system uses the LS1 PCM, the harness is basically a LS1 harness without the coil pack wiring. The top three most popular names in EFI harnesses will charge $700-750 for an LS1 harness.
We will also sell an LS1 harness for the 3rd gen f-body for $600. Add $50.00 for drive by wire. Compare that to the $800.00 price tag of other harness manufacturers.
EFI Connection is charging far less for a very similar harness and including the correct connections under the dash for the 3rd gen f-body. Some harness manufacturers save a few bucks by excluding some secondary connector locks, PCM connector dress covers, and some other equipment found on original harnesses. EFI Connection harnesses include all necessary secondary locks to provide the same quality as the original harnesses.
I'm not suggesting $700-800 is too much to pay for a quality engine harness. It's actually a very fair price considering the cost to build a harness (materials, time, research, support, reordering supplies, "keeping the lights on", etc).
Our aim will continue to be to offer the same or better quality harness at a very competitive price.
I understand that price is not affordable for everyone, but EFI Connection can't afford to do it for less. Heck, I was just quoted $5k to replace the water system in my home. I can't afford it, so I came home today with all the parts to do the work myself for just over $3k. Having never done this before, I'm sure I'll wish I could afford the labor to have someone else do the work. But I'll get through it. In the same way, if the price of a new harness is not affordable, you should be able to rework a used L31 harness for much less.
Reworking a used harness is not completely overwhelming if you spend several hours comparing wiring diagrams and gathering supplies. http://www.eficonnection.com should have any missing items you may need if you choose to rework a used harness. Unfortunately I'm not reworking used harnesses because they're not a very good fit to the TPI manifold. It would take less time for me to build a new harness (and that's still a long time).
He's exactly right.
I've built 5 efi streetrod applications in the last 14 years. Everytime I do one, I have to give a high price for an aftermarket harness. I bought one in 2000 that was missing two wires and like to never have figured out what the problem was with NO help from the company I bought it from.
Dealing with S10Wildside was a pleasure after the jerks I've dealt with over the years. His prices are reasonable also. He's probably the only guy you'll get to do this kind of stuff for you.
When I started my OBDII project, I called a few harness companies and they told me I was wasting my time, to go ahead and use LSX and be done with it.
When I approched Mike about my idea, he said he would give it a try.
After sending him a used truck harness to convert, we both agreed it would never get it. It would look tacky and he nor me wanted the public to know we had anything to do with it.
He built me a new harness that looks great at a fair price.
I've had to do a lot of things I couldn't afford myself also. I even put one harness out of a Camaro TPI in a 67 firebird on my own because I was so deep into the 41 OBDII truck project I couldn't afford to buy one.
I agree wildside. But like you said, not everyone can afford to pay for someone to do stuff for them. Ive done a similar swap by making my own harness, I'm sure I can do it again. Was not fun, I can agree with that. If I need wire ends, I'll be sure to keep you in mind!
I agree wildside. But like you said, not everyone can afford to pay for someone to do stuff for them. Ive done a similar swap by making my own harness, I'm sure I can do it again. Was not fun, I can agree with that. If I need wire ends, I'll be sure to keep you in mind!
I encourage you to share your best practices with reworking the used harness for this conversion. That will really go a long way to help those who wish to save a few bucks on this conversion.
Yes, my test engine has the stock chain. Others working on the double roller chain with the reluctor. I've not experienced the double roller yet to see the clearance issues in person.
First, let me thank all whom have shared such a large amount of useful information.
Next, I've read through the thread, but I'm a little unsure of exactly where the crank reluctor is mounted. Am I correct saying it's "inside" the timing chain cover? And the vortec timing chain cover is larger to accommodate the reluctor, thus takes up a little more space on the crank snout, thus necessitating the vortec balancer or machining the original?
First, let me thank all whom have shared such a large amount of useful information.
Next, I've read through the thread, but I'm a little unsure of exactly where the crank reluctor is mounted. Am I correct saying it's "inside" the timing chain cover? And the vortec timing chain cover is larger to accommodate the reluctor, thus takes up a little more space on the crank snout, thus necessitating the vortec balancer or machining the original?
Thanks in advance.
The reluctor simply slips over the end of the crank after installing timing gear.
Then the ugly vortec cover goes on and you need to use the vortec balancer or machine the thickness of the reluctor off your old balancer so your pulleys still line up. The crank key holds the reluctor in place.
You have only 8 bolts instead of the 10 for the older, but that's not a problem. There's 2 holes missing on the vortec cover under the water pump. By the way, your original pump fits over the vortec unit just fine.
In the bottom of the vortec cover just to the passenger side, I believe, your sensor plugs in that gets it's signal from the reluctor.
You'll need to find knock sensor from 96-2000 truck also. I believe the part number is different from the TPI unit.
If you go junk yarding, get the knock sensor, both O2 front sensors, reluctor, cover (with bolts), balancer, MAF, and dist if you can.
There's a sensor after the catalytic convertor that you can just turn off in the PCM.
I'm using the MAF on my streetrod project. You can buy 3.5" pipe off ebay to plumb it in if you use it. I elected to keep my MAF because all the LSX stuff from GM uses it. I'm building a nice dependable project to be driven daily.
I turned off VATS, rear O2 sensor, and EGR in my PCM with Tunercat II.
PS- You really should look for a 4L60E while you are at it, or you'll have to buy a controller for your 700R4. Buy a good used 4L60E and sell your 700R4.
By the way, your original pump fits over the vortec unit just fine.
This is not true for the Corvette water pump. You will have to machine a timing cover bolt head for clearance. I can't recall if the water pump needs to be machined. This was the experience with the 33 Willys. The Corvette water pump is shorter than the Camaro/Firebird pump.
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I elected to keep my MAF because all the LSX stuff from GM uses it. I'm building a nice dependable project to be driven daily.
If the vehicle is tuned properly, eliminating the MAF is not an issue for driveability. Running with or without a MAF is personal preference.
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PS- You really should look for a 4L60E while you are at it, or you'll have to buy a controller for your 700R4. Buy a good used 4L60E and sell your 700R4.
Agreed! I will never fight with a 700R4 again. You just can't beat custom shift points defined in the PCM calibration.
What about the two o2 sensors? I am assuming you hd to weld in an additional o2 bung on the passenger side header.
Yes, that is definitely preferred. However, I've been thinking about this and can't think of any reasons why you can't install one HO2 sensor and share the O2 signal high and O2 signal low for both bank one and bank two at the PCM. Assuming bank one and bank two are performing just about the same, I can't see why you can't share one O2.
Having one O2 sensor in each bank is definitely preferred for troubleshooting a valvetrain problem or injector problems (although EFILive allows you to perform an injector balance test).
I've not tested this, but if time allows I may try it out. However, I would not recommend this route due to the benefits of one sensor in each bank.
Yes, that is definitely preferred. However, I've been thinking about this and can't think of any reasons why you can't install one HO2 sensor and share the O2 signal high and O2 signal low for both bank one and bank two at the PCM. Assuming bank one and bank two are performing just about the same, I can't see why you can't share one O2.
Having one O2 sensor in each bank is definitely preferred for troubleshooting a valvetrain problem or injector problems (although EFILive allows you to perform an injector balance test).
I've not tested this, but if time allows I may try it out. However, I would not recommend this route due to the benefits of one sensor in each bank.
Any thoughts on this?
I was jsut trying to think of anything I haven't thought of yet for this kit. I guess fro cost savings for some people they might want to go that way but I am happy with the idea of having one for each bank.
Another question as for adjusting the timing manually. Can this be done like on tpi models since we are still using a distributor. I am assuming this could be done on the express van so is there aconnector that can be unplugged while the vehicle is off to do this?
Another question as for adjusting the timing manually. Can this be done like on tpi models since we are still using a distributor.
No, if the distributor is out too far (I think you get something like 3 degrees), you'll continue to throw a crank relearn trouble code that won't go away after performing the relearn.
Timing advance can be adjusted in the Spark Advance table in the PCM. If you have a need for (temporarily) manually adjusting timing (during tuning, etc), EFILive will allow manual control of the timing through their software in the Bidirectional Controls section of FlashScan.
No, if the distributor is out too far (I think you get something like 3 degrees), you'll continue to throw a crank relearn trouble code that won't go away after performing the relearn.
Timing advance can be adjusted in the Spark Advance table in the PCM. If you have a need for (temporarily) manually adjusting timing (during tuning, etc), EFILive will allow manual control of the timing through their software in the Bidirectional Controls section of FlashScan.
Sorry silly question i assumed it was done through tuning of the PCM.
PS- You really should look for a 4L60E while you are at it, or you'll have to buy a controller for your 700R4. Buy a good used 4L60E and sell your 700R4.
Thanks for the replies.
Will the 12200411 control torque converter lock-up on a 4L60E? It would be nice if the 12200411 provided a sophisticated algorithm that used VSS, TPS, MAP, RPM, etc to implement TCC.
The 12200411 was used in the Express Van to control either the 4L60E or the 4L80E.
May I suggest that you Print this thread out. There is alot of info here dealing with this swap. That way you can make notes if needed. Myself, I copied it to word so I could make notes. Now it's in a nice binder for reference.
There are also links to "Programming Files" that you might need.
I just saw a 0411 PCM on ebay for 50.00+12.00 s&h if anyone wants to buy a decent PCM. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...6655715&rd=1,1
It doesn't really matter what it is out of, it can be re-flashed in a couple minutes.
The 12200411 was used in the Express Van to control either the 4L60E or the 4L80E.
May I suggest that you Print this thread out. There is alot of info here dealing with this swap. That way you can make notes if needed. Myself, I copied it to word so I could make notes. Now it's in a nice binder for reference.
There are also links to "Programming Files" that you might need.
Just a Susgestion
Bill
Good suggestion. However, it seems to me that as time progresses people on the forefront of this project learn new things that weren't completely addressed in the past. Further, some things that are obvious to some of the experts here, isn't quite as clear to some of us neophytes.
Please forgive me if I was asking redundant questions.
)
:rockon: 
