TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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On the double roller timing chain fitment, yes, that's correct.
Machine a shim that goes between the timing gear and the reluctor. 0.150" thick. That will space it off so the chain doesn't grind the reluctor up.
Don't make it too thick, or the timing cover will get noisy for a while during the 'break-in' and then it could crack or start to leak.
Then you can back-cut the balancer where it mates up. That way your belts will line up. You could probably get away without this step, but you might as well get it right. Even 1/8" will make the difference.
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just wanted to pipe in again that I just took my car 2341 miles on the power tour, and it never skipped a beat!! It idled dead on 750rpms for prob about 5 hours in traffic, never went over 200* (except when my cheap radiator cap started leaking), got 24mpg with the air on, never stalled...it was perfect.
This swap is everything that the 165 and 730s arent lol
just wanted to pipe in again that I just took my car 2341 miles on the power tour, and it never skipped a beat!! It idled dead on 750rpms for prob about 5 hours in traffic, never went over 200* (except when my cheap radiator cap started leaking), got 24mpg with the air on, never stalled...it was perfect.
This swap is everything that the 165 and 730s arent lol
After I cleaned up the VE tune on mine a little, I loaned it out for about a month to a good friend. He put about 2500 miles and a new transmission into it, man that made a difference! That and a torque converter (2400 vigilante multidisc).
It's got a minor oil leak, but that's no biggie. Flat top 383 with E-Tec 200 heads put down 355 to the wheels consistently on a 2nd gear pull. With the balloon tires (99 Tahoe), it was getting pretty scary on the 3rd gear pulls (usually 10% or so higher results without lockup) with that big ole one-wheeled wonder going about 150 mph, and the power numbers fell off considerably (repeatedly). I'm sure it was just the insanity of those tires binding up at the roller. Everyone was cringing at the time.
Once we swap over with some 4.10s and a posi, we'll test again. Maybe throw some low-pro Impala rims on there (22s baby!) and spin it up again. I think it has 375 in there for the wheels, easy.
Pretty mild cam actually (224/230, 0.560/0.570 lift), and it idles like a kitten (very loud purr motor) at about 750. Likes 850-900 a little better though.
I was able to match up pretty well with a 1500 truck, set up with a 408 LS1 built and tuned, actually put about half a trucklength on him repeatedly from anything under 40 mph starting point. First and second gear were mine. But that 3rd gear nosedive showed up on the street as well, and the LS1 just left me (gently) each time.
Although, I'm really happy with my 730 ECU in the 87 T/A.
Not trying to get off topic, just saying that I'm happy with the 0411 conversion on my 99 Tahoe/Vortec. Strong motor helps reinforce that joy.
Last edited by Craig Moates; 06-07-2007 at 01:18 AM.
just wanted to pipe in again that I just took my car 2341 miles on the power tour, and it never skipped a beat!! It idled dead on 750rpms for prob about 5 hours in traffic, got 24mpg with the air on, never stalled...it was perfect.
So that 24mpg is highway and intown? What other stuff do you have done?
24mpg highway. I was getting 26-27mpg with the air off....it was a pretty flat trip! I have a looot of stuff done to the car, it would be a shorter list of whats not done lol.
i was wondering, if it would be easier to buy all of this stuff now and convert the car with the motor out of it( i pulled motor to paint under the hood and change heads, cam and intake, install t56) or is it just as easy to do it later with the motor in place. Also does anybody know if the distributor clears the first injections intake.
Anyone figure out how to make this work with the LT1-LT4's yet? The 96-97s would be easy id think if it wasn't for the cam sensor(Opti)? Trying to sell the idea to a buddy of mine with a hopped up LT1.
Thinking outloud here. Use the LT1 timing cover with a crank sensor. Add the crank reluctor wheel. Plug the hole in the timing cover for the opti and remove the opti. Run a electrict water pump. As far as the cam, send the intake off to LT1Intake.com and have it machined for a Rear mounted Dizzy.
The problem is that the only other ECM/PCM/BCM that I know of besides the 5081 that can use the signal from the Opti is the GM MPFI 4. Painless was looking at adding a tuning option the thier Perfect system. That was a year ago. I'm not sure if they've done it or not. The perfect system uses the MPFI 4. The 5081 PCM is still a nice little unit. The main problem with the LT1's are the Optis. I've heard of owners having to replace them on a regular bases.
i was wondering, if it would be easier to buy all of this stuff now and convert the car with the motor out of it( i pulled motor to paint under the hood and change heads, cam and intake, install t56) or is it just as easy to do it later with the motor in place. Also does anybody know if the distributor clears the first injections intake.
Without a doubt, it's easier to do the wiring with the harness out.
I checked today at my local Parts Dealer, the Express EGR is 4 inches tall which means it won't fit standing up in the 3 1/4 inch space between the base and plentium.
The conclusion: Using a piece of angle iron, take the Gasket from the orig. EGR and scribe it onto one half. Using a gasket from the Express Van scribe an outline of it on the other side of the angle iron. Drill out the bolt holes on both sides. Then drill out the port holes. Using steel tubing, connect the port holes from one side to the other and weld in place. When drilling the port holes, they should be enlarged to accommodate the size of the tubing required.
Using an adapter like this will allow the EGR Valve to be mounted in the vertical position, maintaining the EGR's ability to function.
Don't hold me to this, but next week I'll try to build a mock adapter without the tubes to see if it will fit. I need to raid a junk yard anyway for some parts.
My understanding with the egr is the signal to energize it from the 411 computer. Not the egr itself. You can use the stock 3rd gen egr.
The 0441 uses a Linear Electronic EGR Valve Instead of the Port Vacuum Style.
Here is a good description of it:
Linear electronic EGR valves (early 1990s & up). Another type of electronic EGR valve is the "linear" EGR valve. This type uses a small computer-controlled stepper motor to open and close the EGR valve instead of vacuum. The advantage of this approach is that the EGR valve operates totally independent of engine vacuum. It is electrically operated and can be opened in various increments depending on what the engine control module determines the engine needs at any given moment in time. GM started using this type of valve on many of its engines in 1992. Linear EGR valves may also be equipped with an EGR valve position sensor (EVP) to keep the computer informed about what the EGR valve is doing. The EVP sensor also helps with self-diagnostics because the computer looks for an indication of movement from the sensor when the it commands the EGR valve to open or close. The sensor works like a throttle position sensor and changes resistance. The voltage signal typically varies from 0.3 (closed) to 5 volts (open).
The TPI's used this type of EGR from what I can Tell:
Negative backpressure EGR valves (1973 & up). The negative backpressure type of EGR valve reacts in the same way, except that it reacts to negative or decreasing pressure changes in the exhaust system to regulate EGR action. A drop in backpressure occurs when there is less load on the engine. This causes the backpressure diaphragm to open a bleed hole and reduce EGR flow. It's the same principle as with the positive type except that the control function occurs when backpressure goes down instead of up.
This information is from Larry Carley, a technical writer for several of the Professional Magazines.
As you can see the 0441 cannot properly control the Stock ThirdGen EGR.
The EGR for the Express Van has a connector with 5 pins and No Vacuum ports. The ThirdGen uses a EGR with 1 pin and 1 Vacuum Port.
Without looking at the wiring diagrams and Technical Info, I don't remember what the wire was for. I'll have to look it up.
The EGR for the Express Van has a connector with 5 pins and No Vacuum ports. The ThirdGen uses a EGR with 1 pin and 1 Vacuum Port.
The TPI EGR valve is opened and closed by vacuum controlled by the EGR solenoid. It has two wires (gray and pink/black). The MAF systems have a temperature switch (??) in the base of the EGR that uses one green wire. It had nothing to do with routing vacuum though.
Don't hold me to this, but next week I'll try to build a mock adapter without the tubes to see if it will fit. I need to raid a junk yard anyway for some parts.
Bill
Great, please post pictures if you do. And if it works, you more then likely got a buyer.
Just a quick note about the ignition coil....if you're like me and already have an aftermarket coil like an MSD Blaster, you can still use that coil. I bought the MSD 8231 vortec coil thinking my Blaster wouldn't work, but I reviewed the diagram that came with it and it has the same specs as the MSD blaster for our Fbodies...the only difference is the connector (the vortec one has an actual connector)....I also called MSD tech just to verify this information, he said the coils are the same....hopefully you can save $50 like me and re-use your's.
Whats all the hype about getting the egr working? Does it really need to be working? If you have a visual and so forth, why not just keep it all hooked up with a pigtail not connected. Nobody will know the differance, you'll still pass emmisions and its less to worry about.
Ok Guys, I've got two Choices in making the adapter. I can make it out of steel or I can make it out of aluminum. Making it out of aluminum will allow easier bending of the tubing since I'll have to use 3/4in tubing. I will be able to get the tubes welded-in once school starts. Whats ya's opinion?
You can get the MSD pigtail if you need to adapt an ignition box, but see how only 2 wires go to the coil....that's the same as our's on the F-bodies....you can just snip the connector off the end and crimp on ring connectors and connect to your existing hi-po coil....no need to spend the $50 on this one.
Whats all the hype about getting the egr working? Does it really need to be working? If you have a visual and so forth, why not just keep it all hooked up with a pigtail not connected. Nobody will know the differance, you'll still pass emmisions and its less to worry about.
EGR helps reduce high combustion temps, spark knock, and a few other things. Where I live, any bit helps under the hood when most of the year you run ac because its 85+, plus humdity.
Then yes, some of us have to deal with emissions yearly testing. I dont, but I would like to know that if I move some where that does, or for some odd reason, they pull me over and do a roadside test, I can pass.
If a bracket/adaptor can be made for a few bux, I think its more then worth it.
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Originally Posted by elcamin0_77us
Ok Guys, I've got two Choices in making the adapter. I can make it out of steel or I can make it out of aluminum. Making it out of aluminum will allow easier bending of the tubing since I'll have to use 3/4in tubing. I will be able to get the tubes welded-in once school starts. Whats ya's opinion?
Bill
Personally, Id like steel on this one incase it flex's, I could easly have it re-welded. Others opinons can very, thats just mine.
Last edited by Dale; 06-12-2007 at 04:02 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
That is good news about the msd coil. also the Msd coil for our tpi cars spark at 48,000 volts versus the 40,000 of the vortec one from msd.
As for egr. It is not a necassary item to actually pass a test. It adds in passing by pulling in some of the exhaust gases and putting them into the combustion chamber. They do not help perfomacne in any way. i live in Illinois and as the law sits now, all cars prior to 1996 only have to pass once and that is it. Most states will eb moving to this as to get rid of the dyno rollers which are expensive to maintain and opperate compared to just plugging in a connector to check for codes. If Illinois one of the most hippie liberal states in the Union is doing this I assume many are to follow.
You can get the MSD pigtail if you need to adapt an ignition box, but see how only 2 wires go to the coil....that's the same as our's on the F-bodies....you can just snip the connector off the end and crimp on ring connectors and connect to your existing hi-po coil....no need to spend the $50 on this one.
Ok, so 2 come from ICM on both styles. What do the other 2 on our cars come from? (I dont have wire diagrams infront of me at the moment.)
As for egr. It is not a necassary item to actually pass a test. It adds in passing by pulling in some of the exhaust gases and putting them into the combustion chamber. They do not help perfomacne in any way. i live in Illinois and as the law sits now, all cars prior to 1996 only have to pass once and that is it. Most states will eb moving to this as to get rid of the dyno rollers which are expensive to maintain and opperate compared to just plugging in a connector to check for codes. If Illinois one of the most hippie liberal states in the Union is doing this I assume many are to follow.
I'm an Automotive Instructor down here in Georgia with a NATEF Cert. Program. This means I have to attend Yearly training. In the last couple of years I've had training over both Toyota and Honda's EVAP systems. The Manufacturers are stating the EPA regs are getting stricter. Lets face it, OBD1 & 2 came around because of the EPA requirements. OBD 3 is just around the corner. Most in the industry realize that its actually California that sets the standards. With Global Warming becoming a world issue we can expect to see more inspections. Today cars can be check with a 5-gas analyzer. The OTC Genyis in my shop at school has a gas analyzer attachment. This is one thing to think about. Mandatory Inspections could become a good source of Revenue. When I was stationed in California back in the 80's it wasn't cheap.
If I remember correctly, the Federal Law states that it is illegal to remove or disable emission controls from a vehicle. If they become non functioning, they should be replaced with CARB/EPA Parts.
BTW, I'm well aware of Illinois's stance on several topics. Illinois is my Home State. Last year I visited UTI up in Chicago, they also talked about the growing possibility of Inspections.
Its easier and cheaper in the long run to go ahead and deal with the EGR than to wait and have to deal with it later. IMHO
I had a request for a little additional information regarding this conversion. It's worth sharing.
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I guess what i am asking is how hard is this conversion
The level of difficulty is relative. I'd recommend asking the guys on the board who have done the conversion to get their opinion. In my opinion it's just time consuming.
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will i still be able to use my cruise
Yes, the LS1 PCM has a VSS output that can be calibrated to work with your cruise module. You'll want to work with your tuner on this.
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will i still be able to use my A/C
Yes, the 3rd gen A/C is not controlled by the ECM. There is a 12v ON signal you'll splice from the A/C clutch to the PCM. The wire is dark green.
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will i still be able to use my gauges
Cable Driven Speedometer: unaffected Electronic Speedometer: receives a signal from one of the two VSS outputs from the PCM. You'll want to work with your tuner on this. Tach: there is a white wire from the coil that connects to your tach Coolant Temp: this is unrelated to the fuel injection harness and will connect just as it did from the factory Voltage Gauge: this is unrelated to the fuel injection harness and will connect just as it did from the factory Service Engine Soon Light: this is provided through connector C207 under the dash near the PCM Oil Pressure Gauge: this is unrelated to the fuel injection harness and will connect just as it did from the factory
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-12-2007 at 10:22 PM.
I have read this thread and am very excited at the possibilities this swap brings. The only question I have (and I think it has been asked already) is does the vortec style dist cap fit behind a stealth ram intake? If it has aleady been answered am apoligize for being redunant but I did not see the answer. Thanks.
Just a quick note about the ignition coil....if you're like me and already have an aftermarket coil like an MSD Blaster, you can still use that coil. I bought the MSD 8231 vortec coil thinking my Blaster wouldn't work, but I reviewed the diagram that came with it and it has the same specs as the MSD blaster for our Fbodies...the only difference is the connector (the vortec one has an actual connector)....I also called MSD tech just to verify this information, he said the coils are the same....hopefully you can save $50 like me and re-use your's.
- Joel
Came up with a thought last night. What about the actual wire from the coil to the dizzy cap. The ends are different. And sticking up to 48000 volts though it, I dont wanna cut it.
Came up with a thought last night. What about the actual wire from the coil to the dizzy cap. The ends are different. And sticking up to 48000 volts though it, I dont wanna cut it.
Just gotta make your own with an HEI boot and a vortec style one.
Yeah you just need to make your own with the correct ends....I had to make all my own MSD wires due to the headers and such...it's no big deal...plus it's nice to have wires that are the perfect length.
I'm going to attempt the patented Moates gen I dist. to vortec style conversion so I can possibly still use my MSD billet one. I plan on taking pictures along the way (if all works out LOL) for those who already have a hi-po dist. and want to do the swap for $1000.
I went looking today for custom vortec wires. I am not finding any unless I dont know what they call this style end besides "vortecs".
The owner of the Willys went to the local auto parts store and ordered some sort of boot kit for an LT1 optispark module and modified the wires he already had. I think he paid about $20.00.
The owner of the Willys went to the local auto parts store and ordered some sort of boot kit for an LT1 optispark module and modified the wires he already had. I think he paid about $20.00.
Thats about what I would plan to ask for. But if we go to this setup where we use our existing coil(8000 more volts) them wires are not a direct fit because of the coil. I'm more looking at something that is a direct fit with the older style coil and new style dizzy, or like the taylor DIY sets, but come with the ends that would be needed for that.
I just finished a 411 conversion harness for a 1987 GTA. Hopefully the board member will keep us in the loop on his installation. I'd like to point out that this conversion (speaking of wiring harness modifications) is easiest for the 85-88 TPI cars. The installation of this harness involves the following.
- Connecting the 15 way I/P harness connector under the dash near the ECM to the new harnesses clear 15 way I/P connector.
- Connecting the 6 way I/P harness connector under the dash near the ECM to the new harnesses gray 6 way I/P connector.
- Splicing the VSS wire (two are available) to electronic speedometer and/or cruise module (if equipped). These wires are outputs from the PCM.
- Connecting 12 ga orange battery wire to included fuse holder with new terminal. Inserting included 20 amp fuse. Connecting orange wire to battery power.
- Connecting electric fan 12 ga orange wires to fusible links, then battery power.
- Connecting electric fan black/red wires to new fan connectors using included connectors and terminals.
- Connecting 12 ga black wires to ground for electric fans using included ring terminals. Branching out near distributor...
- Splicing white wire to tach wire on gray TPI coil connector.
- Splicing green wire to A/C clutch 12v power when A/C is ON.
That's it. In 1989 the fuel injection harness got tied into the starter and charging harness (which also includes wipers, etc). The early 3rd gen TPI cars will take less time to convert to this new system.
Last edited by S10Wildside; 06-18-2007 at 07:21 AM.
Mike,
This sounds like it will be pretty straight forward for the swap. I am trying to get everything else ready as far as the timing chain cover, reluctor ring, and so on. The vss and ac I assumed would needed to be spliced in, also the wiring for the fuel pump.
I do have a Casper electronics relay for the fuel pump can this be reused?
As far as the other I/P harness connectors I guess i will have to see when i get the new harness. Mine is goign froma painless wiring harness so it may not have the exact setup as the factory. Are there built in fuses with your new harness or do i need to splice things like that?
The vss and ac I assumed would needed to be spliced in, also the wiring for the fuel pump.
I do have a Casper electronics relay for the fuel pump can this be reused?
Your harness will be built this week. The fuel pump relay is part of the fuel injection harness and the power to the pump will need to be spliced in at the bulkhead connector (C100) near the brake booster). The earlier harnesses routed the fuel pump power wire through C207 under the dash, requiring no splicing for this conversion. You'll have no need for the Casper relay.
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As far as the other I/P harness connectors I guess i will have to see when i get the new harness. Mine is goign froma painless wiring harness so it may not have the exact setup as the factory. Are there built in fuses with your new harness or do i need to splice things like that?
Because your car was originally TBI, the I/P connector will be pinned to match a 1989 TBI car. The necessary fuses for ignition power are already in the fuse block, so you won't be adding ignition fuses. The harness comes with a new, original, fuse holder and a 20 amp fuse for the 12 ga orange battery power wire. You will connect this to your battery.
I don't prefer the Painless harness for the 3rd gen f-body because it does not include the clear 15 way connector under the dash (C207). I suspecct many TPI conversions with a Painless harness involve cutting off the other side of C207. Hopefully this is not the case with your car. If it is, you'll have a little more work ahead of you (but I can help you through it).
I used to convert 3rd gen f-body TBI harnesses to TPI. It's a very straight forward conversion and requires no additional fuses or relays. I won't do this anymore due to the age of the harnesses and the mess.
[quote=S10Wildside;3374258]I just finished a 411 conversion harness for a 1987 GTA. Hopefully the board member will keep us in the loop on his installation.
I will keep the board informed on the install and take some installation pics for reference. I plan on starting on the harness install this weekend.
I'd like to point out that this conversion (speaking of wiring harness modifications) is easiest for the 85-88 TPI cars. The installation of this harness involves the following.
