1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

By popular demand I have decided to start a post on my long tube runner project. I consider this to be an engineering/R&D study. I will be using an Accel base, GM factory plenum and newly made runners. The runners are going to be two inch in diameter and the base will be opened up to match my AFR 195 Competition ports. Total runner length should be around 20.75". I am going to have Dr J do the honors of porting the base. This project is not for the faint of heart.

I will start off saying that after I got into this the Accel base is not the best one to be using for a project of this size. To late to back track now. I have since looked at the Edelbrock base and it is better in some respects do to the thickness in certain areas. The Accel has a better internal runner shape but that would change anyways with welding and the amount of grinding that will be done. The best one to use would be the First as it would require little welding in comparison. Here are a couple of pictures of the base to start off with.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here are pictures of the plenum and the flanges. I have attached a piece to the right of the hole on the right so that I can extend the plenum back about a 1/2 inch. This will allow good air flow and the proper bell mouth entrance for the last runner along with increasing the total plenum volume. The ID of the holes are 1.875 inch. The base entrance will also be opened up to 1.875".

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Can you describe what you mean by "match" the heads? Are we talking gasket matching? Also, as an engineering project, what spec did you give Dr J to port to, and what are the anticipated results?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The ports will be undersized to the AFR head by around .020" or so. Not gasket matched as the AFR head is not quite as large as the Felpro 1206. This will give some wiggle room for error.

The base entrance from the runners will be 2.76 inch square to match the runners CSA. I am shooting for a MCSA of 2.61" including the head on the total runner. At this point I really do not know how much we can open up the area around the injectors. I am hoping for a minimum of 2.4 CSA. I have had only one preliminary discussion with Dr J and that was the overall concept of what I am doing and to get his imput on the project. When the machining is done I will take the manifold over to him for final discussion of what we can and cannot do and let him have at it.

As can be seen in the picture I had to have the port divider wall welded back up as someone really cut them back from a previous porting job. That would have left a nice ledge for the air flow to run into. That is a big no-no. That area needs to be between .230" and .250" to match the AFR heads. Going to the machine shop tomorrow and most likely the next day to.

As to final results I really don't know. I expect to see some dips in the HP curve as the motor transcends through the different harmonic waves. If I am lucky the big drop off with the 2nd harmonic will occur in the upper 6000 range maybe around 6800rpm. That would be my shift point. If I am super lucky maybe 440rwhp. I should be able to get over 400rwhp even with this being a stalled auto. We shall see.

RedneckNo4

i'm glad to see someone bring harmonics into their tests, best of luck!

cuisinartvette

Takes ***** (and $) to commit to that project, keep us filled in and up to date.

The FIRST base would rock, what to do about the EGR as far as visual smog out here goes? That would be a neat one to work out, such a nice system.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Whats the minimum CSA in the head? Is it large enough to support the rpm range? This intake going on the 369 motor you had built and dyno'd? What happened to the first intake?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Guys

With my current First intake I had it welded up and machined so it would accept and EGR valve in the factory location. So it is functionable and it passes the visual. There have been people passing smog with the EGR located on the side of the First plenum so I guess it depends on the tech.

On the engine dyno the AFR head has already supported 539HP and was taken up to 6800 rpm. This was with a less than ideal Victor Jr intake. Near as I can tell the CSA at the pushrod pinch is a tad over 2 square inches. Maybe 2.05 or so. I have had emails with Tony Mamo on the subject and he thinks the AFR 195 Competition head is good for a solid 550HP and with a well thought out combination a little more. If one wanted to obtain say 600hp Tony said the AFR 210 head is the way to go.

Yes it is going on my 369" motor. On the engine dyno there were a couple of issues. One was the motor just quit making power at 5500rpm but with 396rwhp. That was on the way to some very good numbers if I can figure out the "why".

The other was a very strange dyno graph. I sent a copy to Yank Converters and they suggested I change from a PT4000 converter to their SS4000 converter which I will do.

The First system is still on the car as I want to be able to drive the car while working on the new intake system. In retrospect I would have been better of upgrading it. The First system on the car was design to compliment my 355 with a peak horsepower of around 6000 rpm which it did and even more. I feel it might have been the culprit of not supplying the air I need with the smaller CSA.

The reason for the long tube runner project stems from some very favorable air flow results with the First intake system we conducted on Joe Shermans flow bench. I thought this really has some posibilities.

Here are a couple of pictures taken today at the machine shop for those who like to look at these sorts of things. A lot was accomplished today and I will be back out there tomorrow.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The 369 is in the car now?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes, the 369 is in the car. It really lights up the tires as I have serious traction issues that I have to solve for the street. Going to have the new exhaust system put on soon. Hopefully that will help a little bit more horsepower wise as the headers ports are opened to fit the AFR heads with no obstructions. Actually the same headers that were used on the engine dyno when it made the 539hp.

Guest

Minitub.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You still using your exhaust termination boxes? Is there anything in the design that would limit rpm potential or do you think its just the current intake manifold?

Burnout91

"The other was a very strange dyno graph. I sent a copy to Yank Converters and they suggested I change from a PT4000 converter to their SS4000 converter which I will do."

I would really like to see your dyno graph, along with mine, from the November '10 dyno day. Interesting what the Yank4000 is doing to the look of the graph(s).

Bill

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"You still using your exhaust termination boxes?"

They are not on the car yet along with the new headers. I hope to be able to get into Dyno Don's shop in the next couple of weeks and install the new headers and the final fitting of the "exhaust termination" boxes. The exhaust termination boxes will then need the final welding and then off for the thermal barrier coatings.

After that is done then they will be installed on the car and if all goes will the new long tube intake runner system at the same time. After that off to the dyno for the "report card". Then to the L.A. Invasions for track time confirmation.

Bill, as to the dyno graph of the Yank P-4000 torque converter believe me they do not look anything like yours.

Orr as to the rpm limitation I am not totally sure what it was. I am just going to cover my bases. Could be a combination of things such as the intake, exhaust and maybe the torque converter. I am going to send the current torque converter back to Yank to get it re-configured and probably run a stock on in the mean time as one is available. My Yank SS3600 did not act the way the PT-4000 did. Heck, I might even dyno it with the stock converter for turning purposes and HP bragging rights.

By the way finished basic machine on the intake manifold today and started to fit the runners. Hopefully the runners will be done shortly depending on the welder.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Minitub"

Still waiting on my 17x11 GTA rims to be completed. Hopefully that will do the trick.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

did you lock the converter up on the dyno or was it open? Did it draw a circle at all?

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Not to change the subject but where are you getting 17x 11 GTA Rims!!!!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Unable to lock up the converter.

"Did it draw a circle at all?" Not sure what exactly you mean? However unlocked it did not "grab" to like 5000 rpm even though we started the dyno pull around 4000rpm. It just shot up to 5000 or so before any reading took place. I well see if I can find the dyno run and post it up.

Sammy. I am have a local wheel shop convert a set of GTA rear wheels to 17x11. Make that maybe as he has not done it yet. The price is $300 per wheel. I will call him the first of the week and see where he is at with them. He keeps telling me "next week". It has been a few weeks since I checked in with him.

If I remember I will take my camara with me and try and get some pictures of the "mock up" we have for the welding.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

When a converter locks up it will draw a circle on the dyno chart..rpms dip down and rise up again and so does power so it draws a circle. I wasnt sure if you locked it or not, or if it locked up by itself or was locking/unlocking to make it run funny.

Sounds to me if it went to 5000 rpm and stayed there abit, its stalling too high for the motor and blowing through. Need a restall and tighten it up some. But dont worry too much about the numbers with a stall speed that high being unlocked.... i've seen crazy things too, like a motor that made strong power to 5000 rpm then hp dipped way low over 5500 and then went back up and peaked even higher at 6200. Crazy up an down wave, no idea why but the car ran high 10's on motor. Typical to see unlocked converters dyno way low

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

What Yank told me was the SS4000 would be better because it would "grab hold" earlier in the rpm range.

Here are two graphs from that day. One in speed and the other in rpm. Notice the torque is higher after 5250 rpm.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here are a couple of pictures from today showing the placement of the runners. The runners are now cut and ready to be tack welded in place. In the one picture I have is with a stock runner for comparison.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Hi Alan:
Having seen the preliminary work on the project, I will be very interested to see how much airflow that base has with the runners bolted onto it.

TA

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi TA

I will have Dr J flow it. Base by itself, then with the runners and plenum. If he has a head available we will bolt the whole thing to a head and flow that. Hey its only my money.

godreject

iTrader: (1)

Will the injector clear on the 5th runner, nice progress by the way..

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes, with the Bosch lll's. With the old fat factory ones NO! You are talking about the injectors feeding cylinders 3 and 6 or #5 in the picture.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

nice looking work what size diameter tubes did you go with

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"nice looking work what size diameter tubes did you go with"

2" outside diameter and 1.875" inside diameter.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

Very interesting project ya got going here. If this turns out the way I assume it will you'll have yourself a nice sleeper. You'll just have to clean up that manifold and smooth out all the weld so no one can tell the difference.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

wow how did you open up the manifold to fit 1.875 it doesnt look like in the first picture that the manifold ports are that big it could just be the picture.

cuisinartvette

2" sheesh. If you can get everything to fit and access bolt holes Ill be impressed.
More pics on this.

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

hey Allen, nice project..

but refresh everyones memory (including mine) what the diameter of stock tubes is, and if the plenum is the same height as stock or lower or higher. Also what are sizes of other aftermarket runners.. such as FIRST or ACCEL and EDELBROCK. Just wanted to know

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes, the manifold will be cleaned up and sandblasted to look like it was made that way at the factory.

The ports in the manifold are not opened up yet. I hope to be able to take the manifold over to Dr J in about a week and let him open it up. He will probably add some welding as needed. I am sure he will break through in a couple of spots.

I do not see a problem with the bolt holes. The bottom centers will get an extension just like the stock ones. That would be 4 locations. Then there are two locations with the bolts in the back exactly like the stock ones. We did move to bolt holes on the base half a hole diameter. They are the very first and last ones on the manifold. At the plenum we plugged and straightend out the angled ones and moved them maybe half a bolt diameter. So with some work with a file you could bolt the factory runners back on.

The stock diameter tubes on the outside are about 1.5" in diameter maybe a tad more.

The plenum looks like it will be about 3/16" higher at this point. That will be about the same or less than my First/SLP setup in the car now. The First outside diameter is around 2". The inside diameter varies but is around 1.75".
The Edelbrock I believe is around 1.625" inside diameter. Not sure on the long tube Accel runners. However the Accel SuperRam runners are about the same as the Edelbrock at 1.625" or so. The after market long tube runners may use 1.75" tubing with an ID of 1.625".

I have been think if mother nature throws a monkey wrench into things I might go back and redo the First/SLP system on the car now and open it up. I will have to talk to Pat about that. We have a deal going and that would change the plan.

Right now the focus is getting the runners tacked in place and then taken over to the welder to get them welded up on the inside. We have an aluminum welder but our skills are no better than to tack. I need to have a professional to the hard part so that it does not warp. Then take the manifold over to Dr J and let him go to work. I will then move back onto the plenum and finish that up. One thing on the plenum is the move the back wall out about a 1/2".

I will have more pictures as the project progresses. Maybe I will have some more parts to show at our next TPI club meeting.

Guest

The stock tubes are 1.44 ID, plus whatever bends GM put in them for bolt holes and the like. The ASM are 1.66.

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

Does Jerry have a hand in this project? Only asking because of his fantastic fab skills and he being local . Good project... i often thought of making my own runners but i dont have the skills or know the right people to help...

if this works out, Allen you should go into the "extra large" runner business.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"if this works out, Allen you should go into the "extra large" runner business."

Hahahaha. That would be the fast track to the poor house. Someone like BBK could do this in a heart beat.

Jerry's involvement is that he got this whole thing started a few years back with his modification of the SLP runners I believe are currently on Kevins car. Jerry also made a set for Don. Jerry is currently on another track with intake systems and a stout 305 motor with a 4.00" bore designed to turn I believe around 7500rpm with a solid roller. I think at the moment his job is keeping him real busy. I would love to see his finished project.

We will see what the laws of physics say about this long tube runner project. I am sure the big companies have gone down this road through R&D but those things are held close to the vest and are not general knowledge.

cuisinartvette

Thats the sad part I bet the runners will work great and the minute someone out here started making them youd see a pair show up mass produced from a hut in Thailand for $35 a pair and even if the product was garbage people would buy it as most fall for the cheap price tag hoping....see it all the time.
Hard bus. (mfg).

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Update: The runners have finally been welded. Now I can begin work on the rest of the parts such as porting the intake and enlarging the plenum. I will be going out to the machine shop on Wednesday and will take some pictures. I will also most likely have the parts at our TPI club meeting this Saturday. I was hoping to have everything done in time for the Los Angeles Invasion but that won't happen so I will take my time and ensure everything is done correctly.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here are some pictures of the now welded up runners. I have some grinding ahead of me.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here are some more pictures with one showing the plenum and how I am adding volume. I hope the final plenum volume will be around 45% of the cubic inch of the motor.

ASE doc

One thing I find on TGO is that many of the things I daydream of and imagineer come to fruition through the efforts of more industrious individuals. I guess great minds think alike. I am delighted to see you performing this experiment. I will get over my envy that I have not done it myself. As far as results, my estimation, based on my own imagineering of the same design, is a power curve peaking at close to 7,000 rpm. I see it supporting at least 550hp. The advantage of this long runner design over something like the Miniram will be a much better torque curve due to increased low rpm velocity.

I agree that the FIRST base would be a much better platform than any of the OE replacement-style hi flow bases. With the FIRST base you might find the AFR200s would net you more top end power by pushing the max flow limits of the intake.

I would recommend trying a cam with about 250-260degrees .050 duration and .600 -650 lift to match the higher flow capacity. I don't know the stall point of the AFR 195s is it .600? TPIS and Comp offer a few nice mechanical roller grinds that look promising. The ZZX is a touch smaller but with 1.6 rockers will make .600. Comp offers the XFI304. I would have my own cam grinder play with it a little. After all it's only money.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes, the AFR 195 heads pretty much stall out a .600" lift. That is also about the limit of the springs. You can go a little higher but not much. Knowing what I know today I would have been better off going with the AFR 210 Competition heads. In my contacts with Tony Mamo of AFR he says the 195 Comp heads were designed to support up to 550hp. You can go a little higher but all your ducks need to be in a row. The AFR 210 Comp head was designed to support up to 600hp.

The runners as they stand should peak horsepower wise around 6500rpm using the 2nd harmonic wave. Actually the First intake system would be a better platform to start with performance wise. I could use 2 1/8" tubing but the radius would have to be 2.5" or maybe a mixture of 2.5" and 3" with the tubes cut in half and re-welded back up. We had to cut the tubes in half on two runners with this project to make sure we had ample clearance for the injectors.

I can't see using anything larger than 2" tubing with a factory style after market base and the factory plenum. Most of this "just" fits. Next steps are as follows.

A. Base
1. A tad of welding on the base inside the runners.
2. Then off to be ported.
3. Ceramic coat the interior runners for a heat shield
4. Clean up the exterior welds to make it look like it came that way from the factory.
5. Sand blast the exterior

B. Plenum
1. Finish the radius on the entry ports.
2. Then get the lower plate and sides welded on the plenum.
3. Blow out the back and add about 1/2".
4. Polish and ceramic coat the interior.
5. Sand blast the exterior.

C. Runners
1. I will start grinding out the runners.
2 .I will smooth them out and have the insides and have them ceramic coated for a heat barrier shield.
3. Sand blast the exterior.

Note. One of the bolts is captive to the one runner. It will not come out after the runners were welded in place.

Artisan

Your design and skills are very impressive. I love that someone still cares enough about TPI to do this. I get so tired of reading how bad the TPI is. Everyone gets it. The stock design is close to 30 years old. This is truly cutting edge. I would love to do this type thing myself.
You are going to be right on LS1 Heads and Cam power with only a slightly larger engine. I make 417/417 at the wheels ion my C5. What you will have is so much more impressive.
Good Luck!

ASE doc

I will defenitely be following your progress on this. Thank you for your vision.

therain2008

awesome work dude! I'm glad ASE doc told me about your tread!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I am working on it now. Just taking a break from grinding out the welds on the inside of the runners. I will post progress pictures.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I am making good progress on the runners. I have finished the upper set of runners on one half. I went ahead and took a picture for comparison with a stock set of runners so one can see the difference in size. This gives you an idea of the increase in cross sectional area.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Your work is impressive im really looking foward to your results on this thing.

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

damn that puts "AS&M Large tube runners" to absolute shame.

the things you guys do for TPI is amazing

ASE doc

Again, fabulous work!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hahaha. I guess if the AS&M are "large size" these would be called "jumbo size". Or maybe now the AS&M runners should be called "mid size".