Search



Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > TPI
Register Forgot Password?

TPI Tuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
Sponsored by South Bay Fuel Injectors
Click Here

Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-28-2012, 05:54 AM   #1
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

I bought a set of ProFiler 185 heads for the 383 going in my GTA. I didn't want spend AFR money but I wanted a good head. After seeing how dominant ProFiler is in the big block realm and learning a little about Darrin Morgan their port designer, I pulled the trigger on what has turned out so far to be a really nice set of heads.

Published flow numbers for the 185cc heads are below. This is what they told me on the phone, I don't know what pressure drop or what bore diameter they were flowed on.
int ex
.200 135 110
.300 201 145
.400 245 180
.500 265 206
.600 270 213

When I got mine I blended the bowls on the exhaust side because where the throat was machined and met the port floor it was pretty rough. I left the intakes alone because right out of the box they were great as cast. I just deburred around the valve guides and that was it. We then put them on a friends bench and flowed them at 28" water on a 4.030" bore.

int ex
.100 80 61
.200 138 110
.300 201 149
.400 251 193
.500 271 215
.600 271 226

Needless to say, these things really flow for as small as they are. Cross sectional area at the pushrod pinch was just under 1.9sqin. I'm excited to see how they do on my 383.

I also flowed the heads at .600 lift with some various intake combinations.


Accel base unported with Accel unported long tube runners 229cfm
Accel base unported with Accel SuperRam runners 240cfm
Mildly ported Edelbrock base with Accel unported long tube runners 231cfm
Mildly ported Edelbrock base with SuperRam runners 242cfm

I'm going to use the Edelbrock base I ported and a SuperRam on this combo. I'm going to raise the roof of the Edlebrock base a (porting was only done where the intake meets the head and I did not raise the roof at all yet) and see if I can pick it up a bit. I'd like to be in the 260cfm range when I'm done.

The engine has 10.75:1 compression and I'm using a Comp XFI268 cam. The goal is awesome midrange power and torque. I'm also hoping for 30mpg with the T56. I have a '93 T56 that will go perfectly with my 3.27 rear gear.

Hope people find this data helpful. There is absolutely no info out on the net yet about ProFiler's new series of 23* small block heads, which is a shame because they seem to do awesome on the flow bench. I'm excited to see how they do between the fenders of my GTA.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg flow pic.jpg (36.8 KB, 65 views)
__________________

86 IROC, 383/LPE heads/LPE219/SuperRam, TKO 600, C4 IRS w/3.54s
89 GTA, 383/ProFiler 185s/XFI268/SuperRam, T56, 9bolt w/3.27s
91 TA LB9/T5 (R.I.P)

Last edited by 1MeanZ; 03-28-2012 at 07:57 AM.
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 06:05 AM   #2
Supreme Member
 
Bullydawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chico, Ca/ Misawa, Japan
Posts: 3,470
Car: 88 Formula 350
Engine: 5.7
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 9 Bolt 3.27

Classifieds Rating: (5)
Send a message via AIM to Bullydawg
Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Sounds like a stout combo! I have a spare superram I might play with. I plan to get my top end fully ported out.

What made you decide to do mods to the GTA?
Bullydawg is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 12:04 PM   #3
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Well I bought the GTA last summer and the PO had put a new motor in it. The car is immaculate and the guy seemed to know his stuff so I bought it. It ran fine and seemed to have all the power it should but it always got terrible fuel mileage. 20mpg on the highway was all I would ever get regardless of my tuning tricks. It had a high pressure high volume oil pump that I thought might be robbing me of my mileage so I was going to change it out. I was talking with a friend about it and that discussion raised doubts about the correct compression ratio and quench distance. After I pulled the engine and heads I found that the PO used the cheapest junk chinese bottom end he could find. The connecting rods were all different lengths, the surface finish on the crank was so rough that it had scrubbed the bearings to the copper after only 10k miles, and the list goes on. So I started building another engine and this stroker happened by accident really. It's likely going to make more power than my Camaro does but should remain tame while doing it.

This car will still be the quiet comfy one, it just will have a hell of a big iron fist hidden under a velvet glove.
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 10:35 PM   #4
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

I also unshrouded the valves and polished the chambers to bleed off a little compression ratio because after I cc'd the heads the first time I needed to back the compression down a little.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 10:52 PM   #5
Supreme Member
 
1989GTATransAm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cypress, California
Posts: 6,762
Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: 369 TPI
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.70 Nine Bolt

Classifieds Rating: (3)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

That is some good information. You don't see it very often. The pinch point of the Edelbrock base is right in the injector area. With the SuperRam runners the pinch area is in about 1-2 inches right as the runner starts to turn up.

When I tried to put some SuperRam runners on the Edelbrock base I had clearance problems and had to do some grinding to make them fit. Just wondering if you had the same problems? By the way you will have a torque monster.
1989GTATransAm is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 06:23 AM   #6
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1989GTATransAm View Post
That is some good information. You don't see it very often. The pinch point of the Edelbrock base is right in the injector area. With the SuperRam runners the pinch area is in about 1-2 inches right as the runner starts to turn up.

When I tried to put some SuperRam runners on the Edelbrock base I had clearance problems and had to do some grinding to make them fit. Just wondering if you had the same problems? By the way you will have a torque monster.
Thanks for the info. I didnt know that about the edelbrock base, but interestingly that is where I focused my efforts. My bore gauges seemed to show that area was tight, especially compared to the virgin Accel manifold I have here on loan. Those flow numbers were with the intakes mounted on the head and the porting only widened the intake port, I focused on straightening the port as much as possible. I have not raised the roof yet but that is next on the list, although I don't plan to get aggressive like you guys have and raise the injectors etc. I'm going to raise the roof around the injector area .050" to .070". It should be noted however that I will need to weld up the edelbrock base to completely cover the ports on the ProFiler heads. They have a 1206 sized intake port that the Edelbrock base I have won't cover with enough margin to have a good gasket seal.

The SR runners fit right onto this manifold so I'm going to guess something has already been ground, all these parts are used. Is it where the runners meet the base on the front pair of runners on the driver side?

This fully loaded GTA is no lightweight. I'm also trying to hit a goal of 30mpg on the highway but I'll settle for 27-28. Thats why I'm keeping the compression high and a mild cam. I'm expecting around 460hp and 525tq at the flywheel. We'll see what happens.

I'm going to try to flow the intake and head again after I raise the roof, and throw a stock intake and runners in the mix too just to see what happens. I'll post the data when I get it. What do you think of 242cfm attached to the head like that? Is that good, bad or normal?
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 02:29 PM   #7
Supreme Member
 
1989GTATransAm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cypress, California
Posts: 6,762
Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: 369 TPI
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.70 Nine Bolt

Classifieds Rating: (3)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

"It should be noted however that I will need to weld up the edelbrock base to completely cover the ports on the ProFiler heads. They have a 1206 sized intake port that the Edelbrock base I have won't cover with enough margin to have a good gasket seal.

The SR runners fit right onto this manifold so I'm going to guess something has already been ground, all these parts are used. Is it where the runners meet the base on the front pair of runners on the driver side?"

You would have to try it but you might be able to get away with a Felpro 1205 intake gasket and not have to weld. That would depend entirely on the ProFiler port opening.

As to the SuperRam runners fitting on the Edelbrock base it is on the bottom of the runners around the lower middle bolt hole area. I had to trim that location on the SuperRam runners in order for it to fit the Edelbrock base. No fitting issues with the factory and of course the Accel base.
1989GTATransAm is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 10:54 PM   #8
Member
 
BIG_MODS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Detroit Suburbs
Posts: 439
Car: 87 IROC
Engine: 5.3L
Transmission: Jerico
Axle/Gears: Aluminum 8.6 w/ T2R

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Send a message via AIM to BIG_MODS
Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MeanZ View Post

int ex
.100 80 61
.200 138 110
.300 201 149
.400 251 193
.500 271 215
.600 271 226
those are AFR 180 numbers for several hundred dollars less

http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_25
BIG_MODS is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #9
Member
 
BIG_MODS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Detroit Suburbs
Posts: 439
Car: 87 IROC
Engine: 5.3L
Transmission: Jerico
Axle/Gears: Aluminum 8.6 w/ T2R

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Send a message via AIM to BIG_MODS
Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MeanZ View Post
Click the image to open in full size.
no boss around the guide? First time I've seen that.
BIG_MODS is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 11:47 PM   #10
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG_MODS View Post
those are AFR 180 numbers for several hundred dollars less

http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_25
They flow as well or better than the AFR180 Eliminator CNC versions. My ProFilers were flowed on a 4.030 bore and AFR flows them on a 4.060 bore which will help as well. Mine were a little under $400 cheaper than the AFRs.
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 01:16 PM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 110
Car: 88 Trans Am Hardtop
Engine: 350 L98
Transmission: Stock 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.27 Aussie 9

Classifieds Rating: (2)
Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Subscribed!

Any reason you went with the XFI cam over the LPE 219?
scholtmj is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 03:41 PM   #12
Supreme Member
 
TTOP350's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: central Il USA
Posts: 6,131
Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt

Classifieds Rating: (6)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG_MODS View Post
no boss around the guide? First time I've seen that.
Most guys I know even remove that lil bit of the guide and taper it to the valve stem.
TTOP350 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 10:26 PM   #13
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

The XFI cam has a LOT more lift for a very similar duration. It's a more modern profile that I felt would make more power than the old 219. I've got the 219 in my Camaro, and it does a good job, but technology has moved on and I'd like to think I know a little more now than I knew then.
__________________

86 IROC, 383/LPE heads/LPE219/SuperRam, TKO 600, C4 IRS w/3.54s
89 GTA, 383/ProFiler 185s/XFI268/SuperRam, T56, 9bolt w/3.27s
91 TA LB9/T5 (R.I.P)
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2012, 08:45 AM   #14
Supreme Member
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 19,974
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42

Classifieds Rating: (20)

Send a message via AIM to Orr89RocZ
Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Good thread! Missed this one until now. Profiler makes some good head castings no doubt. They clean up well too. These are somewhat in between AFR 180 and 195's. The 1.9 sq. in CSA is about what the AFR 195 is I believe...maybe a TAD bit smaller.

What valvesprings you gonna run with that cam? It will need a stout spring and thats why I like AFR's option for 8019 springs...they have the seat pressure and open pressure I like to see with xfi cams.

Should be a very torquey motor with that compression and small cam. Still make big power tho even tho the TPI is gonna hold it back alittle from achieving rpm its capable of.
__________________
1989 Twin Turbo IROC-Z
"Twin Turbo 401 Buildup Pics "
Photobucket 401 Twin Turbo
1009 whp / 844 wtq 24.5 psi pump gas only
Orr89RocZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2012, 06:56 PM   #15
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

I'm running the upgraded valvesprings that ProFiler offers. I checked the seat and open pressure against the springs that Comp recommends for the cam I'm using and they were almost exactly in line with what Comp had listed, these were a tad over actually.

The engine may be overbuilt in the torque department. Ive even got a set of Accel large long tubes to put on if I need more LOL. Anyway, I know I'm leaving power on the top end, but this is going in my GTA which was supposed to stay stock until I discovered issues with the engine thanks to assembly by the previous owner. I need good mileage and a good clean smooth idle. This should deliver that nicely I hope. I just used the cheap SCAT9000 stuff for the bottom end and Federal Mogul hypereutectic pistons. It's real nice stuff for what I'm doing, but I'd use better if this was a more max effort build.

In a heavy stock GTA with a 3.27 gear and a '93 T56 this seemed like the best combo I knew how to build for a car that is just a street cruiser. This car will never be tracked except for maybe a pass down the 1320 just for fun. I just wanted reliable, efficient and fun when I get on it. The car is externally bone stock so I'm sure it will be a shocker to some. I made a 2.5" dual cat setup into a custom 3.5" single in hopes of keeping it quiet, you can see the pix of that on the exhaust board. I'm hoping to start it for the first time and start driving it in about a week. I'll let you know how it runs.
__________________

86 IROC, 383/LPE heads/LPE219/SuperRam, TKO 600, C4 IRS w/3.54s
89 GTA, 383/ProFiler 185s/XFI268/SuperRam, T56, 9bolt w/3.27s
91 TA LB9/T5 (R.I.P)
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2012, 07:42 PM   #16
Supreme Member
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 19,974
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42

Classifieds Rating: (20)

Send a message via AIM to Orr89RocZ
Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

Depends on the head/valve weight/size and pushrod but comp cams isnt always good at spring recommendations on cam cards or their rpm ranges it seems. The beehives may control it under 5000-5500 rpm but i've seen that cam float before at mid 5000's rpm with beehive springs. The springs over short time heat cycled and lost some pressure and it started to float the valves. XFI stuff i'd run a good double spring near 140-150lbs seat 380-400 open. The larger xfi's and/or more rpm range may need more spring. With TPI and a 383 it may not need to rev much over 5000 so it may be ok, but I'd still like to have some insurance. Some LS guys used beehives on mild cams to mid 5000's rpm range just fine with their light valves, but most now run double springs with more pressure on any cam thats fairly aggressive.

But that cam in a 383 will be very mild. Its mild in a 355. I've tuned my friends old 360" motor with 280xfi cam and it was fine at idle..lopey but smooth, no real issues. Just he didnt have enough spring. Also floated at 5600-5700 on old afr 190s with 120/320 lbs seat/open springs. Just not enough to use that cams potential.
__________________
1989 Twin Turbo IROC-Z
"Twin Turbo 401 Buildup Pics "
Photobucket 401 Twin Turbo
1009 whp / 844 wtq 24.5 psi pump gas only
Orr89RocZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 11:24 AM   #17
Supreme Member
 
1MeanZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,302
Car: 86 IROC-Z / 89 GTA
Engine: 383 / 383
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600 / T56
Axle/Gears: Dana 44HD IRS / 3.27 Posi

Classifieds Rating: (9)

Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

The springs ProFiler sent me are non beehive doubles. As I recall they were 135 on the seat and around 380 open. I plan on shifting this thing at 5500 and putting the rev limiter at 6k so I doubt I'll run into issues but time will tell. I chose this cam because of the aggressive lobe profile and lift for the given duration. For fuel mileage I need the engine to be happy at low rpm in 6th gear which is why I chose such a mild cam. I was afraid if I went with the 280 I'd be trading some mileage at 55mph in 5th gear. With the M12 T56 I have a .62 OD combined with my 3.27 rear gear I'll only be turning 1400rpm at 55mph. Thats pretty low so I wanted to make sure I didn't have much overlap.

As with all builds this will be a learning experience for sure. I'm excited to see how it does.
__________________

86 IROC, 383/LPE heads/LPE219/SuperRam, TKO 600, C4 IRS w/3.54s
89 GTA, 383/ProFiler 185s/XFI268/SuperRam, T56, 9bolt w/3.27s
91 TA LB9/T5 (R.I.P)
1MeanZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 11:36 AM   #18
Supreme Member
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 19,974
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42

Classifieds Rating: (20)

Send a message via AIM to Orr89RocZ
Re: ProFiler 185 cylinder head flow numbers and TPI intake parts flow comparison

yeah its going to be a good fit. 135/380 springs should be enough for 5500 rpm. Superam runners may reach that rpm but big tube TPI likely will peak well before 5000 and be done by 5200 Good short powerband for maximum torque

How do you like LPE 219/383 setup? Sounds like this new setup is gonna be awfully similar.
__________________
1989 Twin Turbo IROC-Z
"Twin Turbo 401 Buildup Pics "
Photobucket 401 Twin Turbo
1009 whp / 844 wtq 24.5 psi pump gas only
Orr89RocZ is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 11:36 AM
ThirdGen
1992 Camaro




Paid Advertisement


Reply

Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > TPI

Tags
185, 185cc, 23, comp, cylinder, died, driving, filer, flow, good, head, heads, iroc, numbers, pro, profiler
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All content copyright 1997 - 2014 ThirdGen.org. All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced without the expressed, documented, and written consent of ThirdGen.org's Administrators.

Emails & Contact Details