BadSS

Almost ten years ago I started a thread (below) on porting the FIRST intake and runners.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...n-runners.html

The intent was to fully port the intake for a flat-top 406 with old-school Dart “Race Series” 220 CNC ported heads and a solid roller cam. As fate would have it, I had to abandon the project and haven’t been able to get back on it until recently.

The heads were CNC ported with a semi-raised runner program opened up to a FelPro 1207 gasket. While the FIRST will cover a 1207 port without welding, it needed a little extra material added to the top of the flange to be able to cover the “semi-raised” ports of the Darts. Here’s a shot of the intake flange - left side after welding,,, right side after smoothing things out and blending it in.


The base intake porting is done, except for the final clean-up and port alignment for the head and runner openings. Top half of the picture below shows the ported FIRST base on top of an unported FIRST. Bottom half shows the inlet side of the ported FIRST base. I haven’t touched the as cast opening yet – it is right at 1.85” ID so it won’t take much to finish it to the planned 1.9” ID. Pictures really do not do this thing justice,,, it looks more like a big-block intake in person – especially after the porting!


I wanted to siamese the runners on the FIRST, but the creases in the runners will only allow you to “notch” siamese the runners (similar to how the SLP TPI runners come out of the box). Here’s the link to the page of a thread where gbayfisher “siamese” notched the FIRST runners about 2” for his AFR383 build – starting at post #707.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...-383-a-15.html

Here’s a picture from that thread showing his port-work – nice job by the way!


While notching the runners will add a few hundred RPM to the FIRST, I wanted to fully siamese the runners to about the halfway point. So, I had the center creases of the runners welded. Here’s a picture of the front and back welds - I threw in the old ported FIRST runner to reference how large the bottom openings will end up being.


Here she is mocked up with the welded runners. There was some concern that the runners might warp,, but everything fit, sealed, and lined up perfectly. The plan is to blend in the welds and paint the runners with a black epoxy or crinkle paint. It looks pretty good as is (Self Racing Heads did a bang up job on the welds),,, but I don't think I could pull off “It’s just a little ole 305 TPI” with it looking like this!


Stay tuned for pictures of the siamesed ported runners and plenum. It may take a while for the updates, but the “MegaRam” TPI will definitely happen this time around!

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

Subscribed! That looks pretty awesome, Ive got a FIRST intake waiting to go on my 406. I dont plan any porting as of yet. Looks like your taking the biggest long tube on the market to its limits. Can't wait for the results!

RaverRacerX

so, essentially you are creating a secondary plenum within the runners? how much do you think that work will A) improve the performance of the runners and B) move the power within the RPM band?

cuisinartvette

Larger motor may like more plenum not so sure on say a 350
Looks good SS keep us posted. 1.85 is pretty decent size

Now grind off the FIRST cover up the welds with some textured silver rattle can for the stealth factor

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

406 needs alot of air to turn alot of rpm. Bigger cubes even more. 1207 is cavernous, i love that port size on my turbo car. This build should produce

BadSS

Over a stock FIRST,, I except this will add about 25 peak HP,,, but more importantly move the power-band up about 500rpm for my combination.


Thanks. Agreed,, this wouldn’t work well on a 355 and I do plan on smoothing out the welds and painting the runners!


Yep, 1207 openings are quite large. They were ported about 20years ago,,, and this was the smallest volume and cross-sectional area head I could find at that time that flowed over 320cfm. There are smaller volume heads available now that flow more,,, but these are paid for - lol

Guest

N1CE

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Why don't you think it would work on a 355?
We have several like this that work great.

BadSS

Sorry,, there’s no question the general concept of porting the intake and siamesing the runners can be applied to any sized engine. I was thinking about the dimensions and specs used for this particular application not working well for a 355. I should have elaborated. If I had put a little thought to the reply,,, it would not have been so brief and definitive - I should know better. I should have said,, I doubt this particular combination of MCSA and effective runner length would work very well on most 355 applications.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I was just gonna say the same thing. Proper head port at 1207 gasket could feed a 406 to 7500-8000 rpm

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Kevin, excellent job. On mine I only went to a Felpro 1206 but than again with a smaller motor. I can't wait to see the results. I think you are on target with your goals

BadSS

Thanks Allen,,, you know I've basically been sitting/waiting on this project for 10-years,,,, and now that I've started,,, I can hardly wait myself!!!

Just finished getting the crank and pistons in the block,, should have the short-block completed tomorrow and the long-block done over the week-end if I get the AOK on the guides before close of business Friday. Transmission won't be ready until the 30th and I still have to do the EFI conversion on the car - still debating on stainless steel or Teflon fuel lines - I know I'm not doing steel braided "rubber". I have most all the other parts needed,,, just have to get them on the car now - lol.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

*

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Teflon for the win! Longer lasting and no fuel smell in a few yrs like stainless braid rubber core lines

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

subscribed.

BadSS

OK,,, step one of porting the runners is to remove all the runner’s divider as far back as possible with the big short shank burr. Step two is removing the rest of the dividers with a 6” shank burr and blending the floor into the short side radius. Step three is to open up the diameter of the runners and gasket match.

Here’s step one completed on the first pair of runners. I knew it was going to take some time,, but man,,, these runner have a ton of meat to remove.

RaverRacerX

im surprised no one is making a sheet metal runner. also.. im kinda surprised no one has come up with a FAST LSX style manifold for the SBC

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

It is a lot of work. That is one reason why I will only work on my own manifolds anymore. Looks to me like you will be raising the peak hp and torque number quite abit. I would not be surprised if you are in the 6000+ rpm range for hp depending on the camshaft of course.

BadSS

I'm porting a stock TPI base and hogging out a set of SLPs for a close friend's kid,,, no way I'd feel comfortable in charging someone the actual amount of time required to "get them right". I figure it's time well spent trying to keep the hobby alive for the younger folks - so many care more whether the radio is Mcrap3 compatible than if it'll catch 2nd gear rubber.

I've targeted the combination, considering the stall speed and shift-recovery points of the TH-400,, to make peak HP at 5800 rpm and make peak TQ at 4500 rpm. I could have gone bigger with the cam and a little shorter with the effective length and I do think it could have peaked around 6000. However, I wanted to keep idle under 800rpm and still pull 16-inches or so vacuum. Plus,, with the heavy car and relatively low stall speed, and considering how much you have to give up to get for a few more RPM with these long/longer runner intakes,,, I don’t think it would run any faster.

tpiwrangler

I wonder if you could gut stock runners and weld them up so they flow close to that. I guess you could on the top end, but not so much on the intake end


Edit: never mind the material is too thin. Would need to fab up and completely new set if so, i guess

RS Chris

You mean like in post #8?

tpiwrangler

Yeah something like post #8. Cool idea.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

The Teflon fuel lines have to be custom made I assume or can you find them already fitted to our cars?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Buy teflon braided line like any other stainless braid line just slightly different fittings. Cut to fit and install fittings. Real easy

Some online nitrous shops may make custom line per your spec, harris speed works used to before they went out of business. I used to buy line from there all the time

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Cool. Thanks Orr

gta324

this thread makes me wanna buy a FIRST intake and modify it and test it on my car

BadSS

Well, I decided to go with the PTFE/Teflon lines instead of bending tubed stainless steel - no need to add any more work than I have to do already. As Orr said, the hose fittings for the Teflon lines are as easy or easier than any other. Plus, I've made many, many nitrous lines and never experienced a leak. Just make sure you use the correct fittings for the inside diameter of the hose.

I went with the Summit PTFE #8 for the feed and #6 for the return. The inside diameter of the Summit lines are the same as the Aeroquip and you can get the steel Aeroquip fittings for a steal. I'm going to use the steel fittings at the tank (Racetronix #8AN fuel sending unit) and at the filter for durability. I figured what's a few more bucks,,,, and bought an A1000 nickel plated Aeromotive regulator and nickel plated aluminum fittings to go under the hood for a monochrome look.

The converter is back from TCI after a freshening and the TH400 transmission is getting freshened up - might be ready tomorrow. I thought I'd have the heads back by now,, ,but since I need to clean the undercarriage and run the fuel lines and wiring for the fuel pump this weekend,,, it's not holding me up yet.

I've finished step one on three runners. I'll probably finish off step one on the last one tomorrow night - once that's done,, the rest of the porting is a breeze!!!

BadSS

I'm not through with the porting,, but I couldn't stand it and smoothed out things on the outside and shot one with black primer to get an idea of how they're going to look painted. I was a little worried,, but now I think they're going to look OK.

Guest

Nice, keep the FFI love coming guys.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

It looks good and it looks like it came that way from the factory.

BadSS

Thanks,, it took a little time to get it to that point. I've heard a rumor that Ken at FIRST is considering doing a siamesed runner option. I do believe they would sell like hot cakes if he did. Anyway,, a buddy of mine and I built shelving for the garage today - getting it "work-shop" friendly. It's been catching junk for years,, so getting it to the point I can actually work on the car has been a chore. Hopefully I can finish up the runners some time Monday.

cuisinartvette

Have fun! lol


Ditto on not worth charging. Current one Im playing with bet Ill have 40-50 hrs in the base alone plus another 15+ in the SR runners easy. If youre going all out
Fun when you start the project a relief when youre done.

BadSS

I hear you. I finally finished up on the runners tonight,,, well,,, I have to "gasket match" them to the intake,, but I am more than just relieved they're "done" - lol. It probably took about 16 hours on them,, literally removing 1/2lb from each runner. I wish I would have taken a picture when I weighed them,, my buddy didn't believe it until he saw the difference on the scales for himself.

Still have to cut out the plenum,, blend that in a bit and finish off the gasket match on the heads once I get the heads back. Yep,,, machine shop hasn't finished them,, they needed a couple guides,, so I guess that'll take another month - lol. That's still not really holding me up though. The car was in pretty bad shape sitting up for 12-years,,, so I'm still not quite ready for the engine yet,,, but it's all working out. No real snags,,,, just a lot of work so far,,, and still to go!

I'll post up some more pictures once I finish the plenum,, hopefully tomorrow night.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Looking good!!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

If you want to maintain more of a "stock-ish" look, I'd recommend sand-blasting the runner to give that "rough cast" appearance.

Guest

Anybody -else- installed theirs yet?

-pics
-vids
-slips
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88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

I have a FIRST intake setup ive been running it for 3 years I believe.... really nice jump over my ported edelbrock/slp setup....I wanted to port mine out like badss but I want to eventually turbo my ride.... a 383 turbo FIRST Is what I would really like.... the car is no longer a daily driver anymore... ive only put about 200 miles on it within the last year...


02e2c89f-affa-4470-96cd-b956a218106e_zps5e2622eb.jpg?t=1380244139

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

HOW much air and RPM do you think a TPI is going to use...
guys have been tryn to make bigger tubes on this sorta intake for well past 20 years now.. the only ones using them are the stock class race guys...

BadSS

One problem with the old stock based GM-style TPI is the base to head and base to runner transitions are pretty bad. The TPI base intake flow drops considerably when you bolt on the runners. The placement and spacing of the runners won’t allow much more than about a 1.66” inside diameter which equates to about a 2.16 minimal cross-sectional area (MCSA) which in and by itself limits the peak torque RPM potential,, especially on larger cid engines. That along with the long runners equate to a system that makes most of its power right at or below the shift recovery RPM. What this amounts to is an intake system that pulls well in first gear but has a hard time making power in the other gears even with the largest diameter runners you can bolt up to the base. Reducing the effective runner length by siamesing doesn’t help a lot either due to the inherently bad transition points – in fact, if you siamese them too much, you’ll lose more midrange torque than you can make up for on the top-end. The SuperRam is about as good as it gets for a stock based GM-style TPI, and it is still limited by the MCSA.

The FIRST right out of the box makes similar power to the SuperRam and the FIRST has a longer runner length. It’s able to do it because the base to head and base to runner transitions are MUCH better and the inside diameter of the runners as cast at around 1.75” allowing it to make a little better low, similar midrange, and just a little less power up top. The “big deal” with the FIRST is you can port the runners to around 1.92”,, which is 2.9” MCSA – this is greater than a 245cc AFR 23-degree head and comparable to a CNC ported oval big block head. With the right heads and cam, a ported FIRST can make peak torque well past the shift recovery point,,, even on a 400-plus CID engine (something a stock based GM-TPI has trouble doing with a 350). Welding the runners up like I did,,, allows you to fully siamese or effectively reduce the runner length,,, but there is still a point of diminishing returns when it comes to how much you can siamese. I believe the most “effective” RPM you can get out of the FIRST is around a 6200rpm shift point – if you try and force it to do more, it’ll just take power away around the shift recovery point and not really go any faster.

Just to be clear, a short runner intake like a single plane or StealthRam with a big cam and the appropriate gearing and stall speed will ET better than a FIRST. The FIRST is more of a cruiser’s intake with a bite – meaning if you don’t want to run a lot of gear or stall speed, it’s very likely that it can run every bit as quick if not quicker than a short runner intake.

Guest

My set up is (in the works)
IS:
FFI - ported to 1.9
AND
a D1 Procharger
= 1 of a kind setup which = B.A!

BadSS

It's been a while,,, so I thought I’d give a bit of an update. I’ve been working mainly on the car, a 1985 Monte Carlo SS, getting it ready for the engine and haven’t put any more work in the intake lately – still waiting on the heads from the machine shop (lol).

The car had been sitting up for about 12-years and it’s taken a lot of work to get it ready for the road. I’ve had the car on jack stands knocking off the surface rust from the frame and cleaning the undercarriage for a couple weekends. That includes stripping out the old corroded stock fuel lines for #8 teflon feed and #6 return lines. It’s getting a new EFI fuel tank, RaceTronix #8 AN sender, Aeromotive Stealth in-tank pump,, along with the associated wiring and relays to feed the FIRST EFI. I’m going to be running the EBL P4 ECM and have a nice used aftermarket harness that I’ve load checked. Bought the crimping tool and terminals to add the wiring needed for the two staged cooling fans and vehicle speed sensors,, so that’ll be fun. I’ve cleaned all the standard factory wiring and replaced the old looms with new “OEM grade” high-temp looms.

Engine bay is stripped and painted,, as well as the front suspension components that got all new MOOG problem solver bushings and ball joints. The car was last set-up for drag racing, so gone are the Moroso Trick Springs and Comp Engineering 90/10 shocks in the front,,, and in went the 600# “touring springs”,, but waiting on the double adjustable VariShocks. Replacing the old rear Trick Springs and 60/40 shocks,, with some circle track springs with an AFCO height adjuster to get the handling and stance right for the rear. Also ordered and waiting on the single adjustable VariShocks. I’m running an F-body 36mm sway bar up front and plan on setting the shocks for a nice combination of comfort and handling for “cruising”. Plans will be to remove the sway bar and adjust the shocks when at the track.

Anyway,,, making progress on the car,,, and will probably finish the cosmetics on the intake later this week - I'll post more pictures when I do.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Good to see that you are making steady progress.

TxTtopZ

Is there any way you can take some shots of the first base bolted on your heads.. I know it's all ported but still relative info. Im just trying to see how good you got the transitions. Stock TPI is horrible. Never seen what a worked FFI base looks like. Thanks.

Nice interesting build btw.

BadSS

I knew it was going to be a lot of work with the car sitting up for so long,, but I didn't take into consideration I'm that much older also! I'm to the point I can get it in the garage,, so I'll make better progress when I can keep working on it past dusk - the mosquitos around here are literally killers!

BadSS

Thanks.

I can tell you though the runner to base and base to head transitions are VERY good - nothing like the GM based TPI. I have a set of stock heads I quickly opened up to a 1205 for a friend that hasn't picked them up yet and a stock FIRST - I'll mock those up and see what kind of pics I can get.

You can see in these two pictures how much better the transition points are with the FIRST.

BadSS

Well,,, I haven’t done much to the MegaRam FIRST here lately,,, been working on the car (1985 Monte Carlo SS) – mainly suspension and EFI fuel system components,,, including a LOT of cleaning and painting!!!

Here's a shot of the front suspension components (600# touring springs, 2" drop spindles, all new Moog problem solver bushings, progressive bump stop, and double adjustable VariShocks (I haven't bolted on the 34mm hollow front sway bar yet).


Here's a shot of the rear suspension,, showing off the Detroit Locker Ford 9", new rear disc brakes, stainless steel lines, upper control arm support bracing, upper adjustable control arms, dual adjustable roto-joint lower control arm, stock SS sway bar, single adjustable VariShocks, AFCO 150# Street Stock "drop" coil springs,, and the corner of the new EFI fuel tank (Racetronix AN8 sending unit, Aeromotive Stealth 340 - Teflon #8 feed and #6 return).


Since most everything is new on the car,, brakes, fuel system, EFI electronics, and I don’t have any experience tuning a speed density system (only tuned on MAF cars),,, I decided to refresh the old 406, throw on a set of stock 76cc heads to get the compression down around 10.3:1 and run a flat tappet hydraulic with similar overlap to the cam in the new engine. I have a stock FIRST TPI,, all the fuel lines and wiring won’t be any different,,, so I figure I’ll make sure everything is working properly and get comfortable tuning the EBL P4 system,,, then slip in the bad boy.

Here’s a shot of the refreshed externally balanced 406 – stamped steel extra-long slot rocker arms,, Howard Cams 1.25” springs to handle the .488 lift. I should have it totally buttoned up before the end of the week and be ready to stab it this weekend. I still have a good bit of work to do (run transmission lines and cooler, fit aluminum radiator, electric fans, wiring and relays for the fan and fuel pump),, so it still may be a while before she's running and I'm able to turn my attention back to finishing up the MegaRam! I'll post shots of the stock FIRST on this engine soon.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the update. I have been curious as to your progress.

DXE15274

Greetings BadSS. I'm new to this thread but I have a 391 stroker project that is stuck in mini-ram backlog h%#& so I'm looking at the FFI Mega Ram system as an alternative. Did you ever get to run any dono comparisons/numbers on the FFI unit? I've looked for dyno info but haven't found anything. I'm shooting for 500+ HP, and I'd like to be able to support 6200+RPM, but all that port work seems daunting (not to mention expensive).
Secondarily, do you have any thoughts on combining the FFI unit with the Holley self learning ECU?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated

BadSS

If you’re talking 500 flywheel horses, then the FIRST with a minor “clean-up” and ordered with a 1000 cfm throttle body should support that. If you’re talking 500 rear wheel HP, especially with an automatic transmission, it’s going to take similar work to this “MegaRam”. Ken at FIRST was thinking about doing a siamesed runner version (similar looking to the SLP runners) at one time, and I’m pretty sure he has some 2” inside diameter runners that he’s developing for a big block FIRST that will be interchangeable with the small block version, but that’s not helping your situation.

There won't be any dyno numbers on the FIRST - time slips only. The closest chassis dyno is 180-mile away. I did get the "good engine" dynoed with a single plane and 830 - they had no provisions to dyno the EFI. This is the first engine I've had dynoed since 1992. Actual pulls were so close to the simulations it just didn't make sense to spend the money to dyno them. However, I've never run a cam quite like this one before and wasn't sure the simulation would accurate reflect "actual" numbers. It made within a couple HP of the estimate from the simulation and about 20 more lb/ft than estimated in the lower RPM band (which was surprising since the program typically estimates a little high on low end). So,, I'm stoked that this "long runner cam" worked that well with the single plane.

I don’t know man, I really like the FIRST and the potential it has when modified, but unless you’re specifically looking for what a long/longer tube runner can give you, and it would support your engine "out-of-the-box" or you can do something similar work yourself as I've done to this "MegaRam",,,, I’d look at a single plane intake - especially if I were considering a MiniRam to begin with. There's just no way I could afford to pay someone to do all the work I've done so far,,, and still have to do.

As far as controllers,,, you would be able to run any EFI system you wanted. I ended up choosing the DynamicEFI EBL P4 since it increased the timing tuning range of the stock 7730 to 6400rpm (I plan on shifting around 6200) and has a provision to activate the “kick-down” solenoid for a TH400, as well as many other enhancements. It best fit what I needed the system to do and cost less than most systems to boot.

DXE15274

Can't thank you enough for taking the time to respond. In truth the motor refresh was geared towards the mini-ram, (AFR heads replaced the Dart iron and a special grind Comp Cam XFI unit replaced the Crower) but I've been waiting five months for TPIS to deliver and still no end in sight. The guys doing the resto on the body are stalled as well, waiting for the motor. I have chassis, suspension, drive train and brake system parts piled to their ceiling and they're about to give me the boot if I don't get this resolved. Not a great situation.
thanks again

BTW That would be 500HP at the flywheel.