BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Ok. Nutshell, 87 Trans Am 350 TPI that had a bunch of compound issues, and I have tried to knock each out as they have shown face but now am facing a riddle I dont understand and have tried finding a similar issue with no luck.

Please, advice needed. Trying to have running completely by months end.
Issue: Not Starting and Running
No Codes

New:
Dizzy, ICM, Spark Plugs, Wires, Coil


If I disconnect est car will start, run.
Connect the est, will not start.
(kinda turns over like too advance-slower compressed crank)

Question is, I thought the est being disconnected will put ECU in a "Handcap" mode and takes the ESC out of the equation and the fact that the car will start and run with est off, this eliminated the typical issues of fuel, air, spark. Although there was a handful events where it would but then die right away...but havent had that occur recently

Unless disconnecting the est. changes another function? if so what?

If I am correct, any advice on how to eliminate the ESC from ECU as an issue?
Dont think its the chip as I can put in a stock chip and have same results.

So any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

What does your timing read when disconnected and running? If it's in thw normal 6-8 degree range it could be the balancer slipped or your timing tab doesn't match the balancer.

rusty vango

have you tried a new ECM? also your EST control module could be bad.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

One of the compound issues i had, was the timming was off, alot...pretty much on #6 when i got the car and although it ran, not great. At time of purchase, felt-looked and seemingly needed a tune up.

when i did timing, correctly or attempted at first, this is where the ICM showed to be an issue as well as the knock sensor (knock sensor pigtail +/wiring) pick up coil was def bad or close to it...this is what promped the new dizzy completely.

then i ran into other issues and worked on those until completed (a few wires, relay and battery cables and ground issues)

at this point, timing is set TDC (per puff and valve method) so i am really confident it is set initially correctly and during timing when advancing (it will advance as it should -wasnt before)

my timing just to clarify is TDC when the balancer mark is at 4*btdc per tab.
i have considered chain being a tooth off, although i dont know if it was what * it would translate to being...either way, even being a tooth off i cant see how- treating the tdc mark per valves and compression would create this issue.

meaning, since the tdc is at 4* on tab and not 0*, making #4* =0* and continue forward as you would.
per timing light...looks good, until you hook up est. and start car ( if it will start)

this has given me the impression that something in the ECU or ESC are off, not the motor itself.

again, disconnect the est. and this car is totally different.

Wrong or right, but i was under the idea, that the est just communicated the dizzy position per rpm to the esc and ecu...ecu then tells the esc to change the spark timing, useing the icm and the knock as ref to were timing is and needs to be?

is there anything that would give the ecu the idea it was too (advance or retarded) on start up?

i was also convinced that the icm is kinda...what did that?

another words, it should crank and start no different then a carbed 350,tbi 350 and once it has started (per icm to ecu) then ecu (per esc) take over and now its functioning as a tpi 350.

sorry, long winded and fusterated, but again for kicks. i tryed it tonight and yup....cranked twice fired and idled. shut off, hooked up est...crank and crank and cranked...nothing. disconnect, cranked three times (battery maybe) fired....

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

honestly i have thought about it, but i went threw the chase down gotcha phase, the i dont know has to be this phase and really didnt want to throw parts at it on a whim if itll work or not.

thats why i was kinda hoping someone with more trouble shooting knowledge could say...these steps will confirm ESC is working and these will confirm ECU is working.

im thinking maybe ESC ( assuming that is what you mean by est module- electronic spark control?)

rusty vango

at this point I would STOP. and verify my timing chain and gears THEN the distributor position in the engine. after you are SURE the mechanicals are correct. I would THEN work on the electronics of it. and yes the knock sensor and the Electronic Spark Control. hell, at this point I would just go ahead and spring for a new ECM too. not a big fan of the shot gun approach. but sometimes ,you gotta do what ya gotta do. ya know.

8Mike9

With EST bypass disconnected, what is the timing at?

It should be about 6 to 8 BTDC.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

ok, so its crude, but perhaps it will help.
The yellow line which will represent 0*, the red line is where the actual balance mark is when timing light applied at idle (about 650-700rpm).

this is achieved, by setting the balancer at 0* per tab with rotor facing #1plug. (yes pulled plug to confirm compression during rotation)

At this, setting car will start. Car will idle as shown and as rpm are applied the mark will travel towards 0*

est plugged in and car seems to advanced to start.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

As for condition of timing chain and gears.
No i have not confirmed in the sense of pulling timing cover off to inspect the chain or see if it is correctly alined.

Question? if it wasnt...wouldnt i have this off timing start running issue all the time? Meaning if the est is connected or disconnected, the cars timing would be off regardless, perhaps sound too advance either way.

or am i missing something else?

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

IDK, personally i am starting to think it really maybe the ecu...just no code for it. dont mean its not, i mean...really havent drove car since issue for a code? sorta speak

and really didnt think the chain itself, because when car does start (good sign) it will idle (good sign) and idles well (good sign) especially after all the other replacements made.
I would imagine the chain would cause issues across the board regardless.
rotor does spin when turning by hand with out delay or pauses?!

so i did rule that out.

8Mike9

Timing is way late, you sure you are on #1?

Now, just to clarify, you need to unplug the EST bypass connector, start the car, and adjust timing to 6 BTDC.

Shut the car off, plug the connector back in, start the car...you'll then see the timing about 20-ish degrees (well past the tab marks) BTDC at idle.

Once the EST bypass connector is plugged in, the computer adjust the timing advance/retard depending on load conditions from the various sensors.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Yes Sir, I have followed our talks before to a T and to describe in detail using the picture as a reference.

I have turn more over by hand, until compression in #1 (plug removed) puffs. this is at 4* before top dead center per tab. Why i dont know but it is everytime and i have to say in total i have done this at least 2 dozen times for various reasons.

but i have rotated it to 0* (despite puff at 4*, as well as tryed this at 4*).

either way once rotated, dizzy rotor is then facing #1 cylinder. I then put plug back in and disconnect bypass.

start car

when i start car the timing light will show idle as you see in picture and if car is reved it will travel towards 0*.

now if i
A: advance the dizzy ( by turning it will also travel towards 0*) i used the timing light that you can put the * you want for example 6*, then adjusted the dizzy until it reached 0*.
A= too advance to start

B: I have followed the same, just advanced the dizzy to about 2*ATDC (instead of 0*)
B= too advance to start

C: for kicks i have left it with no advancement to see if it would have the same result
C= too advance to start

too advance to start, again is the crank sound being slow and A-C results are also after reconnecting bypass and reset battery with everything tighten down.

now for a while, i read (this is before i talked to you) that people have rotated motor found puff and instead of stopping on 0*tab, stopped it on 6*BTDC per tab as thier starting point.

i was so...confused at this point by my results that i even tried that. along with other combinations.

my conclusion is, wtf...lol. actually my conclusion is that i can start this car from 0*-8/9* with est/bypass off hook it up and it does the same thing. So i have firmly ruled the timing out...

On my last TA, that had a carb with vacuum, i did set it once and with in theory thought this would be same...rotate, set at 0* drop dizzy set at #1, start (vaccum pluged = est bypass) turned it up til it ping, backed out a little...hook back up, start and put light on...good. but this was years ago and i am not a mechanic but im not stupid either.

so if someone had a pic, video or even coped my picture and drew a line where that balancer mark is suppose to be when in idle with bypass disconnected that would greatly help communicate.

but if i went off of the verbage, its like i am a 1/4 off?
reason i say this is that from the above information it gives the impression that the balancer mark is at 6*or 8* in idle with bypass disconnected per timing light?!

thank you though for all the help.
and not trying to be difficult, but i really want to see this at this point to compare to what mine is doing.

reason is, the red line in my picture is where the mark is when in idle bypass disconnected ( about an 1.25" from tab) but if car does start with bypass connected, timing light has shown it further down (1.5 maybe a hair or so more) so if it was so extremely retarded, and the computer applies the advancement, why would the mark not be closer towards 0*.

for example, i set at 6*, but computer will adjust to 12-14* plus the dizzy curve 16-20* (for differences of dizzies) to achieve the total 32*-36* or what ever your car runs.

Mikes statement, gives the impression that mine is (-)6*, and computer is adjusting (-)12-14*.....

? then why the slow compression during cranking? thought retarded was fast and advance was slow....


lmao....
idk, i am so lost in this, i mean....bypass off, nice solid quick (not fast) spin and starts...connect and its, T....UR....N..I...NG... slow.

there has to be something else in the mix i am missing when car goes to start with est connected. perhasp the est...signal isnt right, wire...or ecu or esc maybe....

i have even begun to wonder about the chip prom...could timing been adjusted in a way that would conflict what i am doing?

Tune is as followed per paperwork with chip.
$6e mask for 89 5.7 TPI APYU auto BCC and 89 Corvette 5.7 TPI 6spd APYP.
EGR disabled
AIR disabled
CCP disabled
Fan on/off 180/170 for 160Thermostat
350 with 22# injectors
Manual Trans


??????

8Mike9

Let's back up a second.

There is no curve in the distributor, no weights/springs, etc...the timing curve is set in the prom, feedback via ESC module....or maybe ECM tells ESC what to do...been awhile I forget.

Okay, back to your "puff" method"...TDC is not when you feel the puff...but when air is no longer coming out of the hole..so get the "puff" and then you are starting to come towards TDC for #1 (front driver side plug).

No you can continue rotating the engine over with your finger over the hole, letting off every now and then to let air escape..just when you feel no more air escaping, look down to your balancer mark, you should be 4-6 degrees from zero, depending on how calibrated your finger is

Now if the line on the balance is no where in sight, most likely the outer ring has slipped...and you'll need a new HB.

But, at this point (regardless if mark is present or not) the rotor should be close to #1 plug on the cap.

Didn't I PM you my cell number a bit back?
I may be able to talk you through it better than type you through it.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Ahhh, i didnt realize that the curve is not controlled by dizzy, this is ECU/ESC. Ok, got that.

now "puff" method , i got cha on that too and that would make sence, except i was not waiting or measuring air afterwards. I have been so fixated on the "puff", which then makes much better sense to me, that is piston passing that point towards TDC ( and in my case-swearing the "puff" is solid on 4*, this makes the idea of 0* truly 0* now)

!Got it!

as more our pm's, yes you have been very kind to talk me threw alot but havent received a number. and agree the typing thing is a pain, especially since i am trying to say what i am seeing.

with this being said,
this makes more sense...ok, car running with bypass disconnected, sounding good. but connect and we are off....if the ecu/esc is controlling the amount of curve, then perhaps that is why the car sounds too advance when connected during starting...

but why...idk.

question. on puff method, generally speaking. how close is the piston to tdc when you feel puff. would it make sense to feel at 4* and tdc still be 0* or is this something you would feel much sooner then tdc?
because i really thought the puff was tdc and the sucking would be an exhaust (down stroke)

question. on your car...during idle, your balancer mark is at 12* btdc (before tab)? compared to mine being after tab?

8Mike9

Been a bit since I looked at mine, but thinking at idle with EST connected, around 20 BTDC...well off the timing tab.

Well, if you stopped at the first "puff", I think (have to do the math, you be at around 20-25 BTDC...so, I think I see what is going on here.

You were using the point where you first felt compression coming out of the cylinder as TDC, the stabbed the dizzy so rotor would be at #1...in effect, you are timing on #8?,,,I think...so will PM you my number again, I think you have an issue that is not too hard to correct, just a bit of time

eseibel67

You cannot possibly find TDC with an air puff on your finger. The sole purpose of that method is to ensure you on the compression upstroke when approaching TDC, instead of the valve opening upstroke on a 4 stroke engine. If you could see the valves moving, this method would be uneccessary, but you cannot see the valves when the cover are on.

Once you confirm you are on the compression stroke, then stick a wire in the spark plug hole and slowly turn the crankshaft by hand toward TDC until you feel the piston stop moving (at it's highest point). Now the balancer mark should read "0" degrees. If it's not, something is wrong, either with the timing marks or the balancer. More likely problem here would be that the balancer hub has slipped.

If this is good, set the rotor pointed at #1 plug wire on the cap. Disconnect the EST bypass wire. While your assisant cranks engine over, you might have to turn the distributor a little each way in order to get it running. Set the timing to 6* advanced, then plug your EST bypass connector back together.

Although above should be checked, your biggest problem is that your timing chain is sloppy. When you had it running with the EST bypass disconnected and the timing light on the mark, you said the mark moved around quite a bit when you revved it. The ECM's spark control is completely disabled when the EST bypass is disconnected, so wandering timing marks under these conditions means a bad chain. So yes, the engine will still run with a severely stretched chain if the timing is set in a position to compensate for the misaligned mechanicals.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Well i wanted to thank mike for his time on the phone today it was a nice over all talk.

I am happy to say, that as of now. the car is for the first time starting on its own. I still need to dial it in a little better, but at 11p at night my neighbors will riot if i keep it up.

So, what happened well (eseibel67 your getting in to the details, and thank you for that),but both mike and eseibel67 may of proven the true issue at hand.

Tonight, i pulled cover and watched the values travel as well as the rotor. To my surprise and seemingly hard habit to break (stop watching the balancer) as mine is def off.

In fact it was about a 1/4 off, and this lead me to believe that originally it would of been on exhaust not intake.

So what i did was rotate motor until i new was on compression and had both valves closed. i marked the balancer for this location and repeated my self to double check myself. At that point, once i was 100% that it was at least Top of compression stroke and with both valves closed, i pulled the dizzy and re installed.
Once that was corrected, i hooked it all up and tried to fire it over!

1/2 crank and it fired...it wasnt and hasnt ever done that since i have had the car!...i totally thought it was a fluke, so i stopped, turned off car.

cleaned up and re did it again (yup, i didnt believe it started. now that i know that this mark is right, on my second go i simple stopped it 2* before the mark, hooked up light and started car.

"SOB", it started! i put light on and it was at 0*...couldnt believe it, turn dizzy to 6* it was smooth and best sounding yet! still cant not believe it.

but considering how late it is and the fact that it was starting to smoke me out, i figured i wait til the morning. fire it over- check its still at 6* and then i guess put this to the real test. turn car off and hook up est....

i really would fall out if it starts with est bypass hooked up as easy as it did tonight. then i like to see where the timing mark is then!


If it all works out, i dont intend to do a road trip but wouldnt mind going around the block a couple times to see how it drives.
If it works, then i agree i am going to need a timing chain and new balancer.
i wouldnt want to risk it!
i just need some motivation sorta speak and a running Trans Am would def do the trick.

i know its not completely ready and will have much to do in the mean time, but it does help to see some positive progression!

thank you everyone i really appreciate the help and will keep the thread in the loop as for tomorrows adventure!

rusty vango

yeah, luck,logic and perseverance. wins the battle most times. glad you figured it out.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

So to update, with todays adventure.
well...good news, it fired up with a mild crank- still at 6*. let warmed up. shut down connected everything and fired it up again...still mild crank but actually fired.

what i didnt realize was dizzy was still little too lose so f*cker started retarding ...lol

fixed that and tried it again, still at 6*-ish for base and about 12* maybe hair over when est is connected.

Happy about this!

So i waited til it was nice and toasty and trued to rev up threw rpms pretty steady to feel and hear it ( before i road test, looking for reassurance) i noticed that up top it wanted to break up a little bit, and pretty confident its leaning out at high rpms, but rich down low.

now i dont have an 02sensor in it yet, so i am going to suspect car is staying in open loop?! but was kinda shocked when it stalled out about 10mins of running.

so i waited an hour and tried it again, just idle and about 10mins or about full temp-ish it did the same.

i am going to try to get new plugs today, i know all this trial and error has killed the ones in there so i am sure itll help and probably fix the break up (maybe) but not sure about the stall.

should i adjust (or do i need to) iac and tps after such a timing change?
i have adjusted them before and should be good...but that would of been for the incorrect timing.

thanks

8Mike9

Your TPS and IAC should be fine, get that O2 sensor in ASAP as well.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

So i am waiting on the 02sensor. i still need to get under car and see if there is an actual harness for it. no telling at this point and i wouldnt be surprised after some of the wiring hacks ive found.

good news is that, car starting well and idling well, i put a different tps on. thing is i am wondering if the throttle its self may actually have an issue.

i have ran it with everything hooked up to see if i saw anything jump out at me and at the moment its def got spark,fuel and injectors are pulsing. but its like if floods its self out.

i tryed it with and with of the MAF hooked up but i am wondering if there was a suggested way to actually test it.

also question, the burn off relay? what does it actually do and would that impact this at all.

start,idle, running rich and then stalls out, about 160* or just with in a few mins (meaning not warmed up at all)

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

The burn off relay is activated when the cars is turned off. It applies 12 volts to the maf sensor wire, which super heats the wire to burn off any contaminants. This is supposed to keep the maf working efficiently. This relay is only energized for a short period of time after shut down, so no, it would not affect the running of the car per say. HTH

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Ok,
I have another question and figure i keep it all here.
But at this point,, its clear i am still not getting pulse at crank.
once motor fires over it will pulse.

so my question is, on the ecu side of things, what can i test.
reason i ask is because i am still looking at the ecu for the issue.
i havent been able to find anything else wrong...
unless i have a bad icm out of the box...but i wasnt sure on the true chances of that being the issue.

guess i am really looking for more of an organized thought out of how to go forward, kinda feel like i am going in circles.

grounds test good...12v at injectors and ecu...omh injectors are all 17 ( better be...they are new, lol)...and with in theory icm is new so should be working...est should be good.

either way thank you for your help

rusty vango

just because its new doesent mean its good, for instance, most ICMs from auto zone, advance are just plain wastes . I buy all my ICMs from oreilleys, BWD select. haven't got a bad one yet and have bought 60 or so to date. and it is quite possible you have a bad ECM and /or PROM.not uncommon on these cars considering their vintage.

8Mike9

new O2 sensor installed and hooked up?...along with a fresh set of plugs?

Without the O2 sensor, and old fuel fouled plugs (most likely)...you're spinning your wheels here.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Hey Mike
No sir, i havent forgotten,
but your right.
Unfortunately I have yet to get the 02sensor, mainly cause i will need also the pig tail. I havent been able to locate any wiring yet for it.
i was pretty sure the my old 89 was on the driverside and think 87 is on passside. either have anything to be found yet..
Positively I did get a set of plugs in. Kinda had my hands tied though.
My TA budget comes from airbrushing, so cash isnt always at hand and even then, sometimes 2weeks out considering what i am doing.
Sept is always slow...dont know why, riding time i guess. oct and nov i get a nice swing but dead until taxes...which is great until june and then steadies out again.

but as an update.
I found two bad ( or really crappy terminated wires) cleaned them up and then found a solid blue wire in the main harness from fender with a ground end on it, tucked into the harness bundle. I looked to see what the diagram said it would be and at the ecu (no solid blues) nor did i find one on diagram although close in color to tps ground (turned out not to be)

then i checked each bank for pulse and light stays solid during cranky (slightly dims)...spray fluid in (carbon chock) and boom, starts and they pulse..

this is what has brought me back to scratching my head. Its like the same spot just it was starting for a while...
This kinda made me think i over looked something else.

checked all connectors, and with in theory, everything is new unless the iac or icm decided to die in the past two weeks.

this is why i went back to the ecu. wondering maybe it is really just messing with me and i keep going over everything else.

so is there something i can check at the ecu to atleast cross off list as it is getting ref from icm/est to start?

8Mike9

Hey RJ, making a late dinner for the kids right ow, but quickly...without the O2 feedback, the ECM is going to stay in open loop...and run the engine off a preset program...one that GM felt "will get you home, to get it fixed"...that said...I'll look in my manual a bit later, and see what color of wire you should be looking for, for the O2...now...don't start the car or run it anymore until you get the O2 installed and hooked up...cold start and up to about 160 degrees while idling will probably be okay...but nothing more..

One thing I do find odd, no code?...even when you had the car at Operating temp...no SES light on and codes set?...odd with the O2 not plugged in...and yes, it should still be on the driver side, screwed into the exhaust manifold near wear the pipe connects, facing the front of the car.

8Mike9

Okay, read back RJ...pretty sure you have to have the ICM sending "fire" signal to allow the injectors to pulse, also, if..say you have some goofey thing with the TPS where it is showing WOT, that also will not allow the injectors to pulse on start up...but, having babbled that out, generally two thing do not fail at the same time...so, have to know a few things first..

Are you using a Noid light to see if an injector is given the proper signal?
Or are you using a test light?

EDIT:

Are you in a "no start" situation, unless you using starting fluid?

After the fluid, will it still run?

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Im sorry mike.
actually yes. i had replaced the tps before. but after our last talk and after the timing was right. it would start well just after a while stalled. the stalling was soon after start or about 160*. the stalling very much seemed like fuel. and i had a sneaky thought about the throttle body because its old and looks to be in bad shape. So i cleaned it well and reset the IAC (this is months old) I also re set the TPS, thinking maybe i had too? (this is about a year old) and during this time i found that at close position it would bounce around in voltage...like it went too low and slowly came back up...so i replaced it again.
this one hasnt flinched so i felt good about it, put plugs in at same time (ACDelco) and it would either crank for a while- to start or not start...so
yes not starting, add some gas and itll fire right up, even with just a little.

So i was like....NO WAY?
this is where i just left off at, and since thought...maybe still not just one issue. so i checked the pulse with a test light (just because i had one) and it doesnt pulse at crank


so i was hoping to know. is there something i could hook up voltmeter to on the ecu side, crank and actual see some kind of measurement that would show the ecu was getting single?

i guess its possible that the icm is bad, but this is only weeks old?! so that would bother me. last on list unless i am missing something would be wire? maybe signle is getting sent just ecu not seeing it.

any advice would be helpful.

8Mike9

RJ, when you say "add some gas", are you meaning you press the throttle a bit? Or are you squirting gas into the TB?

Look off your harness for a purple wire going no where...ohm it back to D7 at the ECU connector...if continuity, then that's the O2 sensor wire.

Now if my memory serves, at 158? (very close to your 160) is when the ECM is looking to go into closed loop...the temp plus getting O2 crosscounts is was sets it off, without the O2 crosscounts, you are going into "limp mode", if I recall correctly.

Now, back to the start thing...upon start up, the ECM isn't even looking for the o2 sensor yet...bias in the ECM I think is 450 mv's.

One additional thing, if memory serves, you'll have 12v on both sides of the injector connector, then the ECM grounds one side...no check the other side with your light...but...that said, your '87 relies on the Cold Start Valve (aka 9th injector) for fuel enrichment at start up...I "think" there is a thermal sensor that triggers the 9th injector to squirt fuel for a period of time, but I honestly don't know, as my '89 doesn't use it...I'll see if I can find my Chiltons, it may have some info about it.

I think there are two separate issues here...one at start up, and one with no O2 sensor.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Hey mike,
Thanks for your reply and very much agree this is 2 different issues.
I have ordered a pigtail for the 02 and found the "use to be" 02 wire. Just to order the 02 sensor itself.

As for the start. I took a few days away from the car (choose and not choose) and am looking at the picture today as a whole.

I am feeling really strong towards the ecu not getting a ref signal and possibly not knowing its even trying to start. Thus no pulse.

If i back probe the ecu and hooked up a multimeter, any info on what value i should see to confirm the signal is atleast getting to the ecu. I have pretty much gone threw each wire and ground=ok unless i have an issue at the connector at the inner fender.

leaving me at:
ICM ( although new-maybe bad?)
ECU (might be bad and has had issues all along but masked in the other problems)
EST wire (could look good, dont mean it is good)

last pieces to the starting equation.

I am happy to say other things are looking up and i will have some TA $ later this week. So at least something to work with or finally admit TPI defeat and just swap carb.

rusty vango

NO!!! too many TPI cars have been done this way. now really ,once you get the mechanicals right. then do the sensors, then its the wiring to and from the ECM. it will work as intended. believe me. my car started out as a cluster fu%^. drunken monkeys not knowing what they were doing. AND THEN field mice eating what the monkeys didn't fubar all up. yeah it took me 3 years to fix all that , but believe me, no carb can come close to what a correct TPI can do . have patience, have a beer, and then have another beer. but please don't throw it all in the trash. you CAN do it.

8Mike9

Any reference signal the ECM would get, I'd think would have to come from the ESC.

I'll take a look in my manual a bit later and see if I can figure it out.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

So I get home about 30mins ago and figure i take a little time with the car. kinda been on my mind anyway.
But....battery is dead or really close to it....so as it sits on the charger i decided all i could do is atleast omh this est wire. lets see....

well multimeter says good connection from ecu to plug end, plug end out. so my erikca moment fell short.

I guess i was looking to see if i could confirm that the ecu actually was "seeing" the car trying to start. I would imagine i could try the ICM connections as well and see if the wires are good.

I did call this afternoon about an ECU locally 85-140 for one. Kinda seems like a hailmary approach but i am def stumped.

no injector pulse at start, but once i spray gas (carbon choke cleaner,starting fluid or raw gas) its alive and not stalling (yet). so in a way i feel close...yet so far.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

seriously i think i may have to post some pictures just to show that although i am no master...this thing has truly when worked over. the crap i have found...
everything from apoxi fixes, duck tape wiring and why did you do that...

very frustrating and have questioned if i have bit off more then i could chew.

i can say i dont think ill buy another one thats not stock (completely stock) again....lol.

years ago i guess it was a little different back home. had an uncle who was a monster with cars, had more of a budget and honestly i dont think i ever not had some crap part car in the back...so in this sense, from bottom up has really been a big project for me and to get this far and then get stuck like this...just hurts feelings...lol

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

But i do thank everyone for there time.
I am truly noting and applying all advice and information.

rusty vango

you can doo it!!

8Mike9

Back up the truck

If you spray fluid in it, she'll start and run?

Edit:

Thinking Cold Start valve issue, if so.

I have one around I've had for ever off a fuel rail I bought, will see if I can figure out a way to test it...yours for postage.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Rusty.
Im stick it out...although i like to shoot it!

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Yeah.
Why what are you thinking?
I know the 9th injector is suppose to be deleted from chip and thus the inject is disconnected. i had wondered if that chip/tune could be iffy...meaning i would imagine it would of been changed so that the injectors (8) added more fuel at start. or at least what i had thought of...

See i was looking at it as: The injectors not pulsing on crank (this is know) wasnt giving it fuel to actually start. but once started it pulses and runs.
this is why i started down the
"what tells the ecu to pulse at crank?" hunt...

8Mike9

RJ, did you have the chip burned?

Or did the PO just delete the 9th injector?

I'm pretty sure the 9th was discontinued many years ago, could be the PO had an issue with it leaking fuel, and just blocked it off...his climate may not have needed extra fuel to start.

8Mike9

Did a little digging.

The ICM sends the ECM the reference signal, I'm guessing a sine wave, as the ECM converts this signal for RPM's...the ECM must be using this signal to pulse the injectors.

2nd thing is if the TPS see's more than 80% throttle (clear flood state) it will disable the injectors until the ECM see's 800?, I think it was, RPM's.

A Scan tool would really help you out here...

Now, one thing...this car started fine just a week or so back, so do me a favor and disconnect the ECM sensor grounds on the back of the heads between the firewall sand the head shiny, reconnect and try again.

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

Ok Mike I will do.

Thanks for the information.
I had to move car this morning matter a fact. I did notice that playing with the gas pedal, throttle it started on its on but stall almost right away.

could be a fluke.

but i will make a point to do as you suggested tomorrow morning before i do anything else.