I have a 91' GTA LB9 700R4. I run a 15.20@90. I see alot of people refering to 5-speeds as being faster. But i dont completley understand why so. I have never driven a 5 speed V-8 sports car (other than a 99 SS around the subdivision) and i dont know much about how they drive. I figure you can get a better launch from one considering takeing off at higher RPM's and clutch control. But say in my car i have a 2500 stall and a shift kit. Disregarding consistency where does that compare to a 5 speed?

They are only faster in the hands of a driver knows what he's doing. Most will agree there is no slip on a manual car, whereas with an auto the converter will slip (until the TCC locks) making it, in theory, a little slower. The driver of a manual car will have to launch, clutch, & shift perfectly to match what is programmed in a auto trans to be faster.

A stick shift is better than an automatic, period.

Automatic guys will use the whole "but if you add a badass torque converter" argument but you aren't a real gearhead if you don't prefer ripping through the gears yourself...

Both transmissions have their place. Automatics are far more consistent and predictable at the drag strip, manuals lose their edge once a good amount of power is put in front of them. In a stock slightly modded car of course the manual is usually faster as it is not incredibley difficult to put the power to the ground without tire spin. Start putting 400+ flywheel tq to a manual and getting a good hook requires a very skilled driver and even then the consistancy is not there as there is a fine line between bog or hook. The reason a manual is faster given both cars hook perfectly and the manual is shifted perfectly is that for example going down the 1/4 mile in ideal conditions you will want to be at the end of third gear in an auto and at the end of fourth gear in a manual. Going through 4 closely matched gears is more efficient than going through 3 gears as the motor will be in its power band longer in the manual.

Hop up the car with a serious motor say 400hp with alot of tq and match the converter properly in the auto with a quality unit like a Vigilante or Yank and the manual will lose most of the time due to drivers error.

i have the same car except the 5 spd g92..

my car ran a 14.1 with a flowmaster, k&n, some plenum porting and my driving the piss out of it...

heres a FYI..my buddy has a 95 z m6 and hes a pretty good driver..bone stock ran a 13.81, i drove it for the first time and ran a 13.59

my dad has a SVT focus and he ran a 15.23 i drove it and ran a 14.97....

the LB9 G92 cars are pretty quick in the hands of a "above average" driver

(edit)...i dont beleive there is a disadvantage to a stick car...even when the power levels are in the 450+ range...

slicks+revlimit sidestep+powershifting=as fast as its gonna get

ive seen a zr1 vette pull the wheels and powershift 2nd before they dropped...how awesome would that be?

After driving multiple cars with both auto and manual...I have to say it depends on whether you drive it daily or not...the auto is a much handier deal in general, especially in rush hour traffic..

As for being a "real" gearhead or not I bought a Tremec TKO and almost swapped it in...but decided against it because i wanted to stick with my auto...with an efficient convertor there is MORE torque multiplication than a stock one (2.3 vs 1.8x) or so...as well as the launch being a bit softer on the drivetrain...and the fact that I like to burn clutches...

I think that OMINOUS_87 hit it right on the head...is that why supa-fast cars run a manual? No...cause everyone misses a shift here and there

Lastly...I thought Ricktpi would agree given that he HAS an auto...

if a l98 car runs a 15.1 then theres a problem
l98 cars with the ****ty gears will run a 14.6 or so
a g92 l98 will run 14.1-14.2's

a properly driven LB9 g92 car IS capable of low 14's..9 times outta 10 the driver doesnt know how to drive....so thats what the "fact" is based on..I can assure you, driven like it should be its plenty capable...

ive always heard that a stock m6 LT1 could run 13.50's all day..
strange cuz thats what i ran hmmmmm

probly the same amount as that 4,500 rpm stalled, transbraked auto...

i personally know a guy whos done it for a full season, and it barely started to glaze the clutch disc...keep in mind this is a MTI packaged 418 cube LS1...stock t56 and rear...low 11's



i wouldnt want anything other then a stick...traffic or not
i lived in NYC for 2 1/2 years, theres no place on earth were theres more traffic..yea my left leg got a little stronger but it didnt bother me

Thanks for the info....but i got a question relating to F-Crazy. I dont know much about a LT1 w/t-56. But i have never seen a stock LT1 4L60E or T-56 run a 13.5. Im not doubting you, but that means for every stock LS1 SS that i have seen run a 13.60 w/a 4L60E means with the right driver and a T-56 it could go into the 12's. EASY. Any comments on that?

there are plenty of stock LS1 cars running 12's..also im damn near sea level

my stepdads 2001 z t-56 ran a 12.8 stock...

99% of the time the cars are fast because the driver isnt experianced..

when i made that pass the scoreclock wasnt working so when my buddy asked what it ran and i told him he didnt beleive me..when i showed him the slip he was like "holy sh!t dude, i guess i need to learn how to drive"

25th...why are you so calling BS so fast?...cuz youve never seen one do it?...hell neither have iuntill i did it...my eyes work very well and i know how to read a 13.59...thats great that your doubtfull...i love it. it kinda makes me want to call him up and go to the track again and try to better it so i can come back and post it so i can get flamed...yea thats a good idea ....ive never seen a LS1 car go a 14. that doesnt mean it hasent happend...

and if you tighten up the drivline before you launch on a stick car theres actually less shock then in an auto..alls it takes is talented feet

i have nothign against you brotha in fact im growing kinda fond of you, but the fact is just because you havent seen it doesnt mean it cant happen...

I didn't call bs on the time slip, I called bs on the fact that you ran a 13.5 completely stock. There had to be something done to that car for it to run like that, maybe you just didn't know. Go over to camaroz28.com and read some of the times from bone stock cars. Auto or manual, noone has run that fast in a bone stock LT1 ever! The majority are running 14's stock. Just to clarify, my idea of a bone stock car is everything stock right down to the paper filter, just incase your idea of stock might be different. Now there might be a slightly faster factory freak, but the fastest I think I ever remember hearing of on a bone stock LT1 was a 13.8 on a 1.9 60 foot. Might have been a 13.7, but I'm pretty sure it was a 13.8. A 13.5 is pretty hard to believe man. You sure the car didnt have a couple mods you didn't know of? I might have to say there's something up with the 12.8 in your dad's bone stock LS1 too. Even Smith, which is probably one of the worlds best drivers took a stripped down Z28 to a 12.89 stock. That is the fastest documented STOCK LS1 I believe. My 2000 LS1 ran a 13.2 at 106 on a 2.1 60 foot stock. I think I could have done slightly better if I didnt have snow tires on, but still nowhere near a 12.8. What did your dad have done to it?

i could be reading wrong- so correct me if i did. are you all saying that a stockl lt-1 car couldnt got 13.5 or faster? if so- i beg to differ. my dad has a 92 vette- 6spd. bone stock with 22k miles. still has original tires and everything. he rarely drives the bag off it- so i gave him crap about never taking it to the track. i bet him $50 i could run it down the 1/4 faster than he could. i wanted it to be 2 out of three -wins- he just wanted 1 run each- so i agreed. he made it go 13.47 and i got a 13.49 out of it. we live in illinois right near gateway international raceway- about sea level and i am guessing it was around 70 deg. outside. i have a timeslip i can scan as well as video that i can post- provided someone can guide me through posting a video

A corvette and a camaro LT1 are 2 different beasts.

my bad - thanks for correcting me. didnt know we were just talking about race-maro's

lol, yeah. Everything I mentioned before about LT1s and LS1's were referring to f bodys.

ahh- good to know now. i was thinking to myself- i cant drive all that great nor can my old man- so why in the world is it that unbelievable that it went that fast- makes more sense now!!

Alright it seems as if the topic has drifted way out into left field here. At the end of the day it doesnt really matter how fast the "so called" stock LT1 4th gen went. The originall poeter was looking for some hard evidence to his question not a pissing match.

If anyone actually cares, I call on a totally stock LT1 F-Body running a 13.5 ET, some mods had to be done, and yes vettes are a different game all together. Vettes will always be .3-.5 secs faster then an eqaull f-body mod for mod.

This is an arguement that will go on forever. The auto versus manual debate will probably never die. One person says stick is faster, one person says their stalled auto is faster, blah blah blah. Fact is, when you go to the strip, what do you see? 95% of every drag car there will be an auto and there is a reason for it. Enough said.

i talked to my buddy and at the time we ran it the only thing that wastn factory was the "hi performance" PAPER filter...like one of those STP's or some sh!t...not really worty of a gain IMO

i believe if you know how to drive a stick is just as consistant and probly faster then an auto...

the worlds only FI 9 second LT1 car just happens to be a M6..consistant 1.5x 60 ft's...

with talented feet a stick car will eat up a auto...thats why you dont see to many fast stick cars..the drivers arent good enough


ill take a stick over an auto anyday of the week and twice on sunday...because i am good enough to drive it like it should be

and yes i want a cookie

A properly built auto will waste a stick anyday of the week. Put a big enough stall in it just to match up with the stick at the line. Then tell me what do you think is going to shift quicker, a human or a machine that is specially built for the job. most likely my transmission would be able to shift twice before you can shift once. A BUILT auto is better then any stick driver, hands down.

I had my 700R4 rebuilt to hold 500hp 550tq. I have a Vigilante that should flash somewhere between 3000-3200rpm with the amount of tq my 383 Superram will inflict on the driveline. For the amount of cash I have in my trans and converter I could have done the T56 swap, but again in my opinion I would have had a hard time maintaining consisteny at the track. I picked the auto and for me it wasnt a real hard choice. The consistency of my 60s and ETs will tell the true tale when I make it to the track.

my dads z has only a k&n filter....it also has nothign in it..

no power windows, seat mirrors windows nothing...

the only options he has in the monsoon and the hurst shifter
his car weighs 3110 punds with him in it and a half tank

that 12.89 that even smith ran was in a heavy weight loaded SS (like all 3,600 pounds of it) then he ran a 12.6 in a stock c5
i imagine if even was to drive this car, it would be a mid 12 car..

the only way to get a z28 without anything in it...let alone without t-tops had to be special orderd..it took an extra 3 weeks for him to get it because it had nothing in it..

think about it..how many have you seen without t-tops?...or without full power interiors...his is 1 of 3 orderd like this in 2001

i do agree though with factory freak....with a well built auto theres no chance for a fu#k up...but also a full blown powershift will be as fast as a auto with a shift kit
the rev limiter on a ls1 car is at 6,200? (25TH)...when you powershift it right at the limiter point, and it doesnt hit the limiter...how much faster is it gonna get, i mean really...

you guys have your opinion and i have respect for that, but i also have my opinion that a stick car can be just as fast or faster if the dude behind the wheel knows how to drive it, so just askin for yall to respect my opinion..we dont need this to get nasty...know what i mean..
im tryin to force my opinin onto you guys and i dont expect you guys to do the same...this can stay a friendly discussion

We all agree I think.

1. A well built and properly stalled auto is as fast as a stick.
2. Any weekend drag race hero can take an auto down the track with a good result.
3. Only a skilled driver will be able to deliver consistency with a manual.
4. Out of the factory a manual is faster then the auto.
5. Vettes are faster then f-bodys both stock and mod for mod.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes

good luck with the car BTW

Actually the car evan smith drove was a stripped down Z28. My 13.2 was in my 2000 Z28 with no tops, but does have power windows and power driver's seat, 1/4 tank of gas, and crappy tires. Like I said I could have done better than a 2.1 but the crappy tires were very traction limiting. Even so, I highly doubt I could have gotten close to a 12.8. You are right about him taking a c5 to a 12.6 and the LS1 does have a 6,200 rev limiter too. In stock form there is no doubt in my mind with a good driver a stick will be slightly faster than the auto, but once you buld the auto with a descent stall the manual has no chance. Even if you could somehow shift as fast as an auto by powershifting, which i highly doubt, you would destroy the tranny in no time, not to mention if you ran slicks for long the rear would go too.

I agree with everything, except a built and stalled auto won't be "as fast" as a stick, it will be faster and the drivetrain will last longer too.

wow i thought it was with a loaded ss

did they say how he launched it?....i heard the best way to launch an LS1 m6 car was a dump at 2,800 to 3/4 then mat it, bounce off the limiter a couple times then pound 2nd....

an auto may be or may not be faster thena stick..but a stick is so much more fun

I dunno how he launched the LS1, but I know in my 94 6 speed Lt1 dumping it at 2800 would just create a very nice smoke show, lol. I think the best way to launch would be about a 2500 slip out and then pound it once you think you have traction. I agree about the fun factor too. I like chirping third gear with the 6 speed, althought with a shift kit the auto could do the same, especially with the 550 hp I have in my LS1. Hell basically stock just by upping the shift firmness with the HPP3 it was pretty easy to lose traction on the 1-2 shift and that was in a basically stock auto LS1 without a shift kit.

the lt1 makes its peak torque at 2,400 and its plateau flat after that...an lt1 is better with a 1800 or so

im kinda torn in what "feels" better...a powershift or a shift kit in an auto...

why is a powershift harder ont he tranny then a built auto shift kit?

A shift kit just takes the slippage out of the bands in the tranny which actually helps the tranny last longer. Less friction, less wear. Think about it, when you power shift you just rip throught the gears without letting off the gas or the clutch. That can not be good for the tranny. You powershift a few times and your tranny will soon need a rebuild very quickly, especially with the t5's that came in the third gens. Ask how many have been destroyed by power shifting. It might get you slightly faster times, but I would never do that to my tranny because I want it to last. I happen to like my synchros, lol. Also, a "built" auto is just that, it's built to hold up under a lot of stress.

I do know that a 96 T/A M6 and A4 with just an exhaust cutout and K/N filter can run a 13.60, two of my friends ran those times a couple of years ago.

If I am not mistaken, the fastest N/A LT1 is owned and driven by Joe Overton, who resides in my area. 9.86 @ 133mph. Car is an Auto.

I've seen plenty of F-Body LS1's in the 12's bone stock, both Auto and M6, but they were 01 and 02 models. 98-00 do mid to low 13's.

The best I've gotten out of my 86 Trans Am 305 TPI 5 speed was 14.1@99mph. It didn't sound and run like a 305, but believe it or not, it was an LG4. Ran a 14.94@91.67mph with the carb setup on it.
Vid of the car idling and then running up and down the street,
http://www.transamws6.com/video/ZepherWS6.mpg

Now that i have gotten everyones point of view, what is the powershifting? Shifting w/o the clutch? Hows that?

I will never ever, ever, ever, own an auto in any car as long as I have a choice. I hatem and always will. Just my opinion. Im an awsome driver so an equal auto will be left in the dust

How can you have an equal auto trans? I'm sorry you feel that way because it's very likely that in the very near future manual transmissions will no longer exist. If they do, it will be in the form of a paddle shifter, which is nothing more than an automatic that must be shifted manually, no clutch involved at all.

equal as in the car (engine, weight, gears blah blah) the day there is no manual is the day i hang up the keys and take the bus!

but wait-- when you watch the top fuels run-- what do they do? shift gears-- not like a ratchet shifter would do-- like a 4 speed w/o a clutch- so what does that say??

Top fuel doesn't shift at all. They have 2 gears, forward and reverse, thats it.

I'll take up that challenge. You find me 2 IDENTICAL cars. One with a built manual and one with a built auto and I can almost guarantee you the auto will be faster. If by some weird stretch of luck the manual happens to be faster which I highly doubt, the auto will definitely be more consistant and easier on the drivetrain.

never the less its still no fun without that third pedal, also like I said just my opinion, I like manuals, always will. Dont forget that a 5 speed has two more gears, assuming that the other guy will use a th350 or 400 if theyre going to build it up, a 700 most likely would blow up, the 5 speed guy*adjust the shift points and launch and stay in the powerband of his car without opening the hood or going under the car to play with the gov on the auto I definatly agree about the drivetrain stress tho!

*can

Yeah...right...

I think you should email Pro-built and tell him the news...he seems to be able to make his 700r4s do pretty well...but he is obviously incorrect...

I don't think anyone should be inventing facts to back his/her personal preference...

I can appreciate why some think a manual is better, but a well-prepped auto can do as well, if not better the faster the 1/4 time...I am sure that my statement comes as a blow to all of you "I am so good at driving a manual that I am the exception" drivers out there...but try to check your ego at the door here...

My buddy's 96 Trans Am A4 went from 13.2 to 12.6 with just a converter change. Put in a Yank 3400 stall. His best now with an all bolt on LT1 is 12.40 @ 108 I believe.
My brothers best is 13.4 @ 105, same car, almost same bolt ons, but is a 6 speed.

omg, like I said every single time my opinion...Please no more replys to this, its my opinion!!!!

Well...yeah, everyone is entitled to an opinion...which is why I didn't comment until your above quote...honestly...distorting facts isn't a good thing.

I would also bet that you haven't had a well-prepped auto and good convertor like Vig, Yank or ACT to compare it to...I mean actually HAD one in your car...if you have had a th350 and basic convertor upgrade....it isn't the same thing.

I am not trying to get you to become an auto guy, just to realize both sides here...don't forget...if you post our opinion, you have to expect someone to comment

got it :rockon:

Just thought I would point out that even a stock 700r4 is stronger than a t5. Ever wonder why GM only made 350 autos? It's cause the 5 speeds couldn't handle the added power that the autos could.

Would someone please reply to my post on my post. What is power shifting? Thank you

It's when you basically shift like an auto. You dont let off the gas and you dont press down on the clutch. You simply rip the gears into position as fast and hard as you can. It's not good for your tranny and I wouldn't recommend it for the small decrease in et you get.

Actually, people I know that powershift, hit the clutch really quick without letting off of the gas.