Kevin91Z

Lets see if we can come up with a definitive list of everything known about the T5. I'll try to keep it neat, but I'm just going to list things as they come to me right now.

GM used the Borg Warner T5 5-speed overdrive transmission in thirdgens starting in late 1983. It replaced the Muncie Super-T10 4-speed.
1983 to 1987 was the first design, rated at about 280 ft/lbs of torque. 1988 to 1992 was the second design, also called the World Class T5. It featured revised synchros and Timkin bearings, and was rated around 300 ft/lbs of torque. T5 transmissions were used only behind V6's and 305 V8's. The TPI 350 V8 put out more torque than the T5 was rated for, so GM did not offer that combination to the public. (Any replies about comparisons to Corvettes, or emissions reasons, etc, will be deleted)

The T5 offered in V6 engines has a different bellhousing to match the V6, as well as a 10 spline input shaft, compared to the V8's 27 spline input shaft. The V6 T5 also has different gear ratios. The V8 T5 usually has a 2.95 first gear, although I have heard rumors of a 2.75 first gear. 5th gear is .63 in the cars with 3.08 rear ends, and .75 in the cars with 3.42/3.45 rear ends. I have also heard of a .83 5th gear in the 1LE cars.

For 3.42/3.45 rear ends, you need a 7 tooth drive gear and a 19 tooth driven gear to make the speedo accurate.
For 3.70/3.73 rear ends, you need a 7 tooth drive gear and a 21 tooth driven gear.
For 3.08 rear ends, you need a 9 tooth drive gear and a 23 tooth driven gear.

The 83-87 T5's recommend gear oil for fluid, while the 88-92 T5's recommend ATF.

Mustang V8 T5's are different externally, with a 10 spline input shaft and a straight up bellhousing, while the F-body V8 T5 is a 27 spline input and slanted to the right about the 2 o'clock position. They are not compatible with each other externally, but the gears inside are the same. The speedo gears are different as well.

__________________
1991 Camaro Z28
355 RWHP, 360 RWTQ
12.803 @ 108.50 MPH (1.923 60')
Member: Southern California Thirdgenners
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Work: Manley Performance Products

88 350 tpi formula

should be ATF for all.

the W/C recived tapered bearings and the none W/C had brass blocking rings for all forward gears the W/C only used the brass blocking ring for 5th

the ford (4) forward gears are the same if!!! the ford t5 inquestion has the 2.95 "performance ratio" most did not have this ratio (not that it is rare or anything but most did not) I ran across a few that I rebuilt but I would say one in ten if that.

the main shaft is differant in the ford so 5th is not interchangable nore is the input.


you can spot the W/C t5 by the counter shaft (cluster gear) bearing race which is located next to the input shaft. it will have a machined surface with a very slight dished center.

the non W/C bearing race will look smooth and may have a slight bow outward

88 350 tpi formula

here are the bearing races

Attached Images

	IM000870.JPG (43.9 KB, 501 views)
	IM000871.JPG (42.3 KB, 444 views)

anesthes

Why do you think they did that? You would think the car with steeper rear end gears (higher numericly) would have more overdrive for fuel economy...

-- Joe

Kevin91Z

Yes its strange, but the 3.08 geared cars were the lower performance models, and so they wanted them to have even better fuel economy. The 3.42/3.45 geared cars with the numerically higher 5th gear were still able to accellerate well in 5th gear.

Pat Hall

Correction on the input spline counts. V6-14 splines, V8-26 splines. Also, here's a really good ratio chart that was posted on the site quite some time ago. Figured it'd make a great addition to this sticky. Quote [Saw several questions regarding T-5 info so I gathered up some information that some might find useful and figured it would be nice to have all this information in one location rather then searching thread after thread.]

Model Yr...Engine(s).Input....Speedo.......Ratio........Model # (BWA)
1983........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5E.78......1352-015
1983........2.5 L4......14............7..............T5H.73......1352-027
1983........5.0 V8......26............7..............T5G.73......1352-028
1984........2.5 L4......14............7..............T5K.72......1352-054
1984........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5E.78......1352-061
1984........5.0 V8......26............7..............T5G.73......1352-062
1984 1/2..LG4/LG9...26............7..............T5G.73......1352-070
1985........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-071
1985........5.0 V8......26............7..............T5U.63......1352-072
1985........2.5 L4......14............7..............T5R.72......1352-083
1985........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5S.73......1352-084
1986........................26............7..............T5V.61......1352-150
1986........2.8 LB8.....14............7..............T5P.76......1352-156(aft)
1986........LG4/L69....26............7..............T5U.63......1352-157
1986........L4 LQ9......................7..............T5R.72......1352-158
1987........LB9 308....26............9..............T5U.63......1352-166
1987........LB9...........26............7..............T5U.73......1352-178
1987........V6............14............7...............T5P.76......1352-181
1987........LB9 308....26............9..............T5U.63......1352-182
1987........LB9...........26............7..............T5U.73......1352-183
1987........V8.............26............7..............T5U.72......1352-185
1988........B9 5.0L.....26............7..............T5U.73......1352-175(wc)
1988........LO3 5.0L...26............9..............T5U.63......1352-176(wc)
1988........LB8 V6......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-177(wc)
1992 1/2..LB9 5.0L...26............7..............T5U.73......1352-212(wc)
1992 1/2..LO3 5.0L...26............9..............T5U.63......1352-213(wc)
1992 1/2..2.8 V6.......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-214(wc)
1992 1/2..2.8 V6.......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-228(wc)
1989-92...LB9 5.0L...26............7..............T5U.73......1352-195(wc)
1989-92...LO3 5.0L...26............9..............T5U.63......1352-196(wc)
1989-92...LB8 V6......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-197(wc)
1993........3.4L V6.....26............7..............T5Z.72......1352-210(wc)

Speedo info
7=Purple Speedo
9=Red Speedo

Ratio........1st.............2nd.........3rd.........4th............Rev.......5th
T5E..........3.50...........2.14.......1.39........1.1............3.39......See
T5G..........2.95...........1.94.......1.34........1.1............2.73......Ratio
T5H..........3.50...........2.14.......1.39........1.1............3.39......Column
T5K..........3.76...........2.18.......1.42........1.1............3.76......Above
T5P..........4.03...........2.37.......1.49........1.1............3.76
T5R..........3.76...........2.18.......1.42........1.1............3.76
T5S..........3.50...........2.14.......1.39........1.1............3.39
T5U..........2.95...........1.94.......1.34........1.1............2.76
T5V..........3.35...........1.93.......1.29........1.1............3.15
T5Z..........3.75...........2.19.......1.41........1.1............3.53

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by DC87GTA : 02-23-2003 at 03:56 PM

__________________
89RS w/350 TPI; 69RS/SS w/450 HP 350/Muncie 4-Speed "Too weird to live, too rare to die."

Pat Hall

Thought I'd add this to the post since it's asked SO many times on here. When it comes to the speedo, some years used the cable driven, mechanical speedo, and others used the electric speedo with a gear driven VSS. Both styles fit exactly the same in the T5 tailshaft housings, so all you have to do is swap one out for the other, and make sure you have the correct drive/driven gears for your rearend ratio and tire size. The 3.08 ratio cars use a red 9 tooth drive gear, 3.23 and numerically higher ratios all use the blue or purple 7 tooth drive gear. Also, another thing asked quite often is if you can use a 700r4 VSS unit in a T5. The 700r4 VSS is too big for the hole in a T5 tailshaft housing and WILL NOT work. One last thing on the VSS units. There were two different ones used. The 86-89 cars with electric speedos and the '165 ECM use a VSS with a 2000 pulse signal, and the 90-92 cars with the '730 ECM use a VSS with a 4000 pulse signal. The plug on the two VSS's are different, so they're pretty easy to tell apart from each other. The driven gears for VSS units are virtually impossible to find new, so you usually have to locate them used. The mechanical speedo insert, or "bullet" is identical to the ones used in the older TH350 automatics, Muncie, T10, Saginaw 4-speeds, etc., so they're easy to get. The driven gears for mechanical speedos are also the same as the other transmissions listed above, so they're no problem to locate either. The following link is a post from member JamesC that will help if you're trying to figure out which driven gear you need for your application, and where you can locate them. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tr...ve-driven.html (T-5 Drive/Driven Gear Info--Please Contribute)

__________________
89RS w/350 TPI; 69RS/SS w/450 HP 350/Muncie 4-Speed "Too weird to live, too rare to die."

flyitlikustolit

this is great info, Pat. I for one was wondering how to get my speedo to work right. are the drive/driven gears the same as the ones for a TH350? or are they different? I know you said the carrier bullet is similar/the same, but can i just swap my gears from my TH350?

Pat Hall

Yeah, the bullet and driven gear from your TH350 should swap right over, provided it's the same small one that the older TH350's, Muncies, T10's, etc. used. Not sure if the drive gears are the same, but most T5's already have the correct 7 tooth drive gear in them, unless yours has the less common, red colored 9 tooth gear that only the RS cars with 3.08 rear gears got. If you have 3.42's like it says in your sig., then you'll need the white, 19 tooth drive gear to use with the 7 tooth drive gear. Take a look at JamesC's sticky post on the speedo gears. It has most of the popular combos listed.

JamesC

Here's an ID guide to accompany Pat Hall's contribution:

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm

JamesC

__________________
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
______________
Car Details: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/vb...ember-956.html

iroc_zz

T5 service manual for rebuilding the T5

http://www.zbag.com/T-5_Service_Manual_1.pdf

Jboat87

Sweet!...Thanks for that link!

I read through it a little and am still confused as to what fluid to use in my 1987 t-5. The PDF says "most" T-5's use ATF Dextron II.

Some people say ATF and some say Gear oil (and some mix 1/2 and 1/2).

I'm sure it's been beaten to death, but can someone please confirm what is the proper fluid to use in a T-5 non WC transmission. What do you use and what's the best brand? I'm changing all fluids in my car and need to know asap.

Thanks

Heres the snippet...

Section 2
T5 WC & STD On- Vehicle Service and Troubleshooting

2-1. MAINTENANCE
2-2 GENERAL.

2-3. LUBRICATION SCHEDULE.

CAUTION

Excessive temperatures may bread down the
transmission lubricant (refer to vehicle service
manual for maximum allowable temperature). If there
is reason to believe that the transmission has been
subjected to temperatures exceeding 275° F, change
the lubricant immediately.

2-4. APPROVED LUBRICANT.

CAUTION

Do not mix different bands or types of transmission
lubricant. DO NOT USE GEAR OIL IN THE T5
TRANSMISSION SINCE THIS MAY DAMAGE THE
BLOCKING RING MATERIAL.

2-5. CHECKING LUBRICANT LEVEL

NOTE

To check or drain the lubricant, the transmission
should be warm. This is best done shortly after
engine shutdown

.

a. Wipe fill plug (2) and surrounding area clean.
b. Remove fill plug (2).
c. When transmission is full, lubricant will just drip
out fill plug opening.
d. Add approved lubricant if required.
e. Install fill plug (2) and torque to 20 lb-ft (27 Nm).

2-6. CHANGING LUBRICANT. Proceed as follows
(see figure 2-2):

a. Wipe drain and fill plugs (1 and 2) and
surrounding areas clean.
b. Place suitable container under transmission.
c. Remove drain plug (1).
d. Remove fill plug (2).
e. Allow all lubricant to drain.
f. Install drain plug (1) and torque to 20 lb-ft
(27 Nm).
g. Add lubricant Through fill plug opening until
lubricant just begins to drip back out of opening.

NOTE

The amount of lubricant required varies from model
to model. Refer to the vehicle service manual for
transmission capacity.

h. Install fill plug and torque to 20 lb-ft (27 Nm).

2-7. TROUBLESHOOTING
2-8. GENERAL.

2-9. TROUBLESHOOTING CHART.

2-

Kevin91Z

Everything I have seen on this board says 75w-90 weight gear oil for a 83-87 non-world-class T5 and automatic trans fluid for a 88-92 world-class T5.

Pat Hall

A lot of guys have said they actually run ATF in their non-WC T5's, so you CAN do that if you choose to. I agree with Kevin though, that the factory recommends regular gear oil for them. The guys that run ATF in them say that they shift better that way. The only T5's that you absolutely HAVE to run the right fluid in are the WC units. If you use gear oil in one of those, it'll ruin the clutch material in the synchronizers. The synchro clutch material is the same as the clutches in an automatic trans, hence the reason you have to use ATF in them. I've even heard of people running 30 wt. motor oil in non-WC T5's, which also supposedly helps the shifting since it's lighter than gear lube. From a wear standpoint though, gear lube is probably the best choice. So for your non-WC unit, it really just comes down to pick your own poison if you decide not to use gear lube.

__________________
89RS w/350 TPI; 69RS/SS w/450 HP 350/Muncie 4-Speed "Too weird to live, too rare to die."

JamesC

My 85 shop manual says ATF.

JamesC

__________________
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
______________
Car Details: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/vb...ember-956.html

anesthes

Mine says 5w30. Weird.

The GM oil that was factory fill for the non wc-t5's has been discontinued, but syncromesh should be a replacement. WC-T5's need ATF..

-- Joe

Jboat87

Well I guess you see something new every day...

Synthetic gear oil it is then...

blkiroc87

Ok I've got 2 things here. 1 , I just drained my non WC T-5 and it appears that its not ATF from the factory. It looks and feels the same as 5w30 motor oil. My 1987 factory shop manual says to use sae 5w30 lubricant. The original fluid is not really dirty,as the car only has just over 13,000 miles on the odometer. I guess that the original GM lubricant is not available, its part # 1052931. The reason I drained it is because I have a small leak at the speedo gear, Does anyone know the GM part number for the correct O Ring that is used. and is it still available?

anesthes

5w30 tranny oil. I.e, syncromesh. The original stuff is discontinued.
The NON-WC T5's take the same stuff my ZF6 does.

--Joe

iroc_zz

I work at Zumbrota Bearing and Gear, a rebuild facility for manual transmissions and we recommend running ATF in all the rebuilt T5 transmissions that we sell.

I believe people get confused on what to put in the non-world class because each manufacture that used the non-world class transmissions (i.e. Ford, Chevy, AMC, and Nissan) recommended a different fluid. Ford and GM say to use ATF, AMC said to use 5W-30 motor oil and Nisasn said to use 80W-90 gear oil. All of the non-world class transmissions are basically the same internally so you should be able to use any of the three recommended fluids with out damaging the transmission. You will see better shifting quality when using ATF but it all comes down to personal choice on what you want to run.

We have found that running synthetic fluids in transmissions with brass synchronizer rings, like the non-world class, causes shifting problems over time. It seems like the synthetic fluids leave residue on the synchronizer rings and cones and does not allow the rings to grab the cones like they need to.

According to ZF the required fluid for the ZF6 is GM# 1052931 and is replaceable by Castrol Formula RS 10W60, the GM part number for synchromesh is 12345349. Amsoil recommends using their synchromesh part number MTF in place of both the 1052931 and 12345349 (it is a synthetic formulated 5W-30).

The o-ring you are looking for should be available at most part houses in the universal o-ring kits they offer. Just take your old one in to match up.

Pat Hall

Hey iroz_zz. That totally makes sense on the confusion of what fluid should be used, with so many different car companies having used the T5's. I've also heard about some people having issues with the synthetic stuff. I've always ran regular type oils in my manuals since it does the job just fine. It's nice to see a ZBAG employee on the site! I've bought rebuild parts for several Muncies from you guys. ZBAG carries good parts at great prices. Keep up the good work!

__________________
89RS w/350 TPI; 69RS/SS w/450 HP 350/Muncie 4-Speed "Too weird to live, too rare to die."

Jboat87