Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Lets see if we can come up with a definitive list of everything known about the T5. I'll try to keep it neat, but I'm just going to list things as they come to me right now.

GM used the Borg Warner T5 5-speed overdrive transmission in thirdgens starting in late 1983. It replaced the Muncie Super-T10 4-speed.
1983 to 1987 was the first design, rated at about 280 ft/lbs of torque. 1988 to 1992 was the second design, also called the World Class T5. It featured revised synchros and Timkin bearings, and was rated around 300 ft/lbs of torque. T5 transmissions were used only behind V6's and 305 V8's. The TPI 350 V8 put out more torque than the T5 was rated for, so GM did not offer that combination to the public. (Any replies about comparisons to Corvettes, or emissions reasons, etc, will be deleted)

The T5 offered in V6 engines has a different bellhousing to match the V6, as well as a 10 spline input shaft, compared to the V8's 27 spline input shaft. The V6 T5 also has different gear ratios. The V8 T5 usually has a 2.95 first gear, although I have heard rumors of a 2.75 first gear. 5th gear is .63 in the cars with 3.08 rear ends, and .75 in the cars with 3.42/3.45 rear ends. I have also heard of a .83 5th gear in the 1LE cars.

For 3.42/3.45 rear ends, you need a 7 tooth drive gear and a 19 tooth driven gear to make the speedo accurate.
For 3.70/3.73 rear ends, you need a 7 tooth drive gear and a 21 tooth driven gear.
For 3.08 rear ends, you need a 9 tooth drive gear and a 23 tooth driven gear.

The 83-87 T5's recommend gear oil for fluid, while the 88-92 T5's recommend ATF.

Mustang V8 T5's are different externally, with a 10 spline input shaft and a straight up bellhousing, while the F-body V8 T5 is a 27 spline input and slanted to the right about the 2 o'clock position. They are not compatible with each other externally, but the gears inside are the same. The speedo gears are different as well.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

should be ATF for all.

the W/C recived tapered bearings and the none W/C had brass blocking rings for all forward gears the W/C only used the brass blocking ring for 5th

the ford (4) forward gears are the same if!!! the ford t5 inquestion has the 2.95 "performance ratio" most did not have this ratio (not that it is rare or anything but most did not) I ran across a few that I rebuilt but I would say one in ten if that.

the main shaft is differant in the ford so 5th is not interchangable nore is the input.


you can spot the W/C t5 by the counter shaft (cluster gear) bearing race which is located next to the input shaft. it will have a machined surface with a very slight dished center.

the non W/C bearing race will look smooth and may have a slight bow outward

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

here are the bearing races

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Why do you think they did that? You would think the car with steeper rear end gears (higher numericly) would have more overdrive for fuel economy...

-- Joe

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yes its strange, but the 3.08 geared cars were the lower performance models, and so they wanted them to have even better fuel economy. The 3.42/3.45 geared cars with the numerically higher 5th gear were still able to accellerate well in 5th gear.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Correction on the input spline counts. V6-14 splines, V8-26 splines. Also, here's a really good ratio chart that was posted on the site quite some time ago. Figured it'd make a great addition to this sticky. Quote [Saw several questions regarding T-5 info so I gathered up some information that some might find useful and figured it would be nice to have all this information in one location rather then searching thread after thread.]

Model Yr...Engine(s).Input....Speedo.......Ratio........Model # (BWA)
1983........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5E.78......1352-015
1983........2.5 L4......14............7..............T5H.73......1352-027
1983........5.0 V8......26............7..............T5G.73......1352-028
1984........2.5 L4......14............7..............T5K.72......1352-054
1984........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5E.78......1352-061
1984........5.0 V8......26............7..............T5G.73......1352-062
1984 1/2..LG4/LG9...26............7..............T5G.73......1352-070
1985........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-071
1985........5.0 V8......26............7..............T5U.63......1352-072
1985........2.5 L4......14............7..............T5R.72......1352-083
1985........2.8 V6......14............7..............T5S.73......1352-084
1986........................26............7..............T5V.61......1352-150
1986........2.8 LB8.....14............7..............T5P.76......1352-156(aft)
1986........LG4/L69....26............7..............T5U.63......1352-157
1986........L4 LQ9......................7..............T5R.72......1352-158
1987........LB9 308....26............9..............T5U.63......1352-166
1987........LB9...........26............7..............T5U.73......1352-178
1987........V6............14............7...............T5P.76......1352-181
1987........LB9 308....26............9..............T5U.63......1352-182
1987........LB9...........26............7..............T5U.73......1352-183
1987........V8.............26............7..............T5U.72......1352-185
1988........B9 5.0L.....26............7..............T5U.73......1352-175(wc)
1988........LO3 5.0L...26............9..............T5U.63......1352-176(wc)
1988........LB8 V6......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-177(wc)
1992 1/2..LB9 5.0L...26............7..............T5U.73......1352-212(wc)
1992 1/2..LO3 5.0L...26............9..............T5U.63......1352-213(wc)
1992 1/2..2.8 V6.......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-214(wc)
1992 1/2..2.8 V6.......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-228(wc)
1989-92...LB9 5.0L...26............7..............T5U.73......1352-195(wc)
1989-92...LO3 5.0L...26............9..............T5U.63......1352-196(wc)
1989-92...LB8 V6......14............7..............T5P.76......1352-197(wc)
1993........3.4L V6.....26............7..............T5Z.72......1352-210(wc)

Speedo info
7=Purple Speedo
9=Red Speedo

Ratio........1st.............2nd.........3rd.........4th............Rev.......5th
T5E..........3.50...........2.14.......1.39........1.1............3.39......See
T5G..........2.95...........1.94.......1.34........1.1............2.73......Ratio
T5H..........3.50...........2.14.......1.39........1.1............3.39......Column
T5K..........3.76...........2.18.......1.42........1.1............3.76......Above
T5P..........4.03...........2.37.......1.49........1.1............3.76
T5R..........3.76...........2.18.......1.42........1.1............3.76
T5S..........3.50...........2.14.......1.39........1.1............3.39
T5U..........2.95...........1.94.......1.34........1.1............2.76
T5V..........3.35...........1.93.......1.29........1.1............3.15
T5Z..........3.75...........2.19.......1.41........1.1............3.53

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by DC87GTA : 02-23-2003 at 03:56 PM

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Thought I'd add this to the post since it's asked SO many times on here. When it comes to the speedo, some years used the cable driven, mechanical speedo, and others used the electric speedo with a gear driven VSS. Both styles fit exactly the same in the T5 tailshaft housings, so all you have to do is swap one out for the other, and make sure you have the correct drive/driven gears for your rearend ratio and tire size. The 3.08 ratio cars use a red 9 tooth drive gear, 3.23 and numerically higher ratios all use the blue or purple 7 tooth drive gear. Also, another thing asked quite often is if you can use a 700r4 VSS unit in a T5. The 700r4 VSS is too big for the hole in a T5 tailshaft housing and WILL NOT work. One last thing on the VSS units. There were two different ones used. The 86-89 cars with electric speedos and the '165 ECM use a VSS with a 2000 pulse signal, and the 90-92 cars with the '730 ECM use a VSS with a 4000 pulse signal. The plug on the two VSS's are different, so they're pretty easy to tell apart from each other. The driven gears for VSS units are virtually impossible to find new, so you usually have to locate them used. The mechanical speedo insert, or "bullet" is identical to the ones used in the older TH350 automatics, Muncie, T10, Saginaw 4-speeds, etc., so they're easy to get. The driven gears for mechanical speedos are also the same as the other transmissions listed above, so they're no problem to locate either. The following link is a post from member JamesC that will help if you're trying to figure out which driven gear you need for your application, and where you can locate them. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ve-driven.html

flyitlikustolit

this is great info, Pat. I for one was wondering how to get my speedo to work right. are the drive/driven gears the same as the ones for a TH350? or are they different? I know you said the carrier bullet is similar/the same, but can i just swap my gears from my TH350?

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Yeah, the bullet and driven gear from your TH350 should swap right over, provided it's the same small one that the older TH350's, Muncies, T10's, etc. used. Not sure if the drive gears are the same, but most T5's already have the correct 7 tooth drive gear in them, unless yours has the less common, red colored 9 tooth gear that only the RS cars with 3.08 rear gears got. If you have 3.42's like it says in your sig., then you'll need the white, 19 tooth drive gear to use with the 7 tooth drive gear. Take a look at JamesC's sticky post on the speedo gears. It has most of the popular combos listed.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Here's an ID guide to accompany Pat Hall's contribution:

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm

JamesC

iroc_zz

T5 service manual for rebuilding the T5

http://www.zbag.com/T-5_Service_Manual_1.pdf

Jboat87

Sweet!...Thanks for that link!

I read through it a little and am still confused as to what fluid to use in my 1987 t-5. The PDF says "most" T-5's use ATF Dextron II.

Some people say ATF and some say Gear oil (and some mix 1/2 and 1/2).

I'm sure it's been beaten to death, but can someone please confirm what is the proper fluid to use in a T-5 non WC transmission. What do you use and what's the best brand? I'm changing all fluids in my car and need to know asap.

Thanks

Heres the snippet...

Section 2
T5 WC & STD On- Vehicle Service and Troubleshooting

2-1. MAINTENANCE
2-2 GENERAL.

2-3. LUBRICATION SCHEDULE.

CAUTION

Excessive temperatures may bread down the
transmission lubricant (refer to vehicle service
manual for maximum allowable temperature). If there
is reason to believe that the transmission has been
subjected to temperatures exceeding 275° F, change
the lubricant immediately.

2-4. APPROVED LUBRICANT.

CAUTION

Do not mix different bands or types of transmission
lubricant. DO NOT USE GEAR OIL IN THE T5
TRANSMISSION SINCE THIS MAY DAMAGE THE
BLOCKING RING MATERIAL.

2-5. CHECKING LUBRICANT LEVEL

NOTE

To check or drain the lubricant, the transmission
should be warm. This is best done shortly after
engine shutdown

.

a. Wipe fill plug (2) and surrounding area clean.
b. Remove fill plug (2).
c. When transmission is full, lubricant will just drip
out fill plug opening.
d. Add approved lubricant if required.
e. Install fill plug (2) and torque to 20 lb-ft (27 Nm).

2-6. CHANGING LUBRICANT. Proceed as follows
(see figure 2-2):

a. Wipe drain and fill plugs (1 and 2) and
surrounding areas clean.
b. Place suitable container under transmission.
c. Remove drain plug (1).
d. Remove fill plug (2).
e. Allow all lubricant to drain.
f. Install drain plug (1) and torque to 20 lb-ft
(27 Nm).
g. Add lubricant Through fill plug opening until
lubricant just begins to drip back out of opening.

NOTE

The amount of lubricant required varies from model
to model. Refer to the vehicle service manual for
transmission capacity.

h. Install fill plug and torque to 20 lb-ft (27 Nm).

2-7. TROUBLESHOOTING
2-8. GENERAL.

2-9. TROUBLESHOOTING CHART.

2-

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Everything I have seen on this board says 75w-90 weight gear oil for a 83-87 non-world-class T5 and automatic trans fluid for a 88-92 world-class T5.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

A lot of guys have said they actually run ATF in their non-WC T5's, so you CAN do that if you choose to. I agree with Kevin though, that the factory recommends regular gear oil for them. The guys that run ATF in them say that they shift better that way. The only T5's that you absolutely HAVE to run the right fluid in are the WC units. If you use gear oil in one of those, it'll ruin the clutch material in the synchronizers. The synchro clutch material is the same as the clutches in an automatic trans, hence the reason you have to use ATF in them. I've even heard of people running 30 wt. motor oil in non-WC T5's, which also supposedly helps the shifting since it's lighter than gear lube. From a wear standpoint though, gear lube is probably the best choice. So for your non-WC unit, it really just comes down to pick your own poison if you decide not to use gear lube.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

My 85 shop manual says ATF.

JamesC

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Mine says 5w30. Weird.

The GM oil that was factory fill for the non wc-t5's has been discontinued, but syncromesh should be a replacement. WC-T5's need ATF..

-- Joe

Jboat87

Well I guess you see something new every day...

Synthetic gear oil it is then...

blkiroc87

Ok I've got 2 things here. 1 , I just drained my non WC T-5 and it appears that its not ATF from the factory. It looks and feels the same as 5w30 motor oil. My 1987 factory shop manual says to use sae 5w30 lubricant. The original fluid is not really dirty,as the car only has just over 13,000 miles on the odometer. I guess that the original GM lubricant is not available, its part # 1052931. The reason I drained it is because I have a small leak at the speedo gear, Does anyone know the GM part number for the correct O Ring that is used. and is it still available?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

5w30 tranny oil. I.e, syncromesh. The original stuff is discontinued.
The NON-WC T5's take the same stuff my ZF6 does.

--Joe

iroc_zz

I work at Zumbrota Bearing and Gear, a rebuild facility for manual transmissions and we recommend running ATF in all the rebuilt T5 transmissions that we sell.

I believe people get confused on what to put in the non-world class because each manufacture that used the non-world class transmissions (i.e. Ford, Chevy, AMC, and Nissan) recommended a different fluid. Ford and GM say to use ATF, AMC said to use 5W-30 motor oil and Nisasn said to use 80W-90 gear oil. All of the non-world class transmissions are basically the same internally so you should be able to use any of the three recommended fluids with out damaging the transmission. You will see better shifting quality when using ATF but it all comes down to personal choice on what you want to run.

We have found that running synthetic fluids in transmissions with brass synchronizer rings, like the non-world class, causes shifting problems over time. It seems like the synthetic fluids leave residue on the synchronizer rings and cones and does not allow the rings to grab the cones like they need to.

According to ZF the required fluid for the ZF6 is GM# 1052931 and is replaceable by Castrol Formula RS 10W60, the GM part number for synchromesh is 12345349. Amsoil recommends using their synchromesh part number MTF in place of both the 1052931 and 12345349 (it is a synthetic formulated 5W-30).

The o-ring you are looking for should be available at most part houses in the universal o-ring kits they offer. Just take your old one in to match up.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Hey iroz_zz. That totally makes sense on the confusion of what fluid should be used, with so many different car companies having used the T5's. I've also heard about some people having issues with the synthetic stuff. I've always ran regular type oils in my manuals since it does the job just fine. It's nice to see a ZBAG employee on the site! I've bought rebuild parts for several Muncies from you guys. ZBAG carries good parts at great prices. Keep up the good work!

Jboat87

Thanks for the insight. It is much more reassuring coming from a pro. The funny thing is I just checked my new Chiltons and it says use Dextron II, but the tranny has a little metal tag on a ziptie that says to only use 5/30 motor oil...



Once again totally conflicting info. I'm draining it now and there was definitely motor oil in there. I'm replacing it with Dextron III...(not gear oil like I said earlier...)

89transam*pearl

iTrader: (1)

Very informative....thanks to all for the info on T-5's and links...

flyitlikustolit

hey guys, I checked that tech article on swapping the transmissions, but isn't there one that's a liitle more in-depth? I seem to remember reading one that even gave you what size hole-saw to use when mounting the clutch master cylinder. anyone?

blkiroc87

I went to my local trans shop for my parts. Replaced the whole speedo plug. He said 5w30 mobil one full synthetic would work fine, so thats what I used. We'll see how this works this summer. If it dosent its very easy to change out. But thanks for all the input.

flyitlikustolit

did the swap, SO happy I did. I only need to cut the hole for my shifter, and finish installing the mount, and put the interior back together. not much, really, the hard crap is done. anyone have pics, like from the side? I'm trying to see how much the trans itself sticks up out of the floor where the shifter comes into the car. everything else is GTG and bolted up, i just want a reference so I know what it should look like BEFORE i put the lower shifter boot on. anyone?

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

I've been following this thread and it's great. I know the title reads 'everything we know..." do we want to start adding info regarding the various vendors who make upgraded components for the t5 as well to this list?
This would maek this thread that much more complete. Just my -Andrew

flyitlikustolit

cut the hole..... not as hard as I anticipated.... just need to install the driveshaft when i get it, and then all of the interior pieces like the lower boot and the console and such.

QUESTION: when i add the fluid, do i remove the shifter and add it to that box? or do i NEED to use a port on the side? (I assume there is one, i haven't looked closely)

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

You can add the fluid any way you want.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Most guys say pouring it in the shifter hole is easiest, which makes sense to me. Just make sure to remove the fill plug from the passenger side of the trans so you can see when it starts to trickle out of the hole. Once you see it start to trickle out of the fill hole, you're full. Hey Andrew, about the only companies I know of that carry upgrade stuff would be G-Force and Astro Performance. I wouldn't really recommend buying anything from G-Force though. There was a long thread on the vendor's board regarding their total lack of any kind of customer support. Astro Performance finally came out with an upgraded gearset for the GM T5's not too long ago, so at least there's an alternative choice now. After pricing out those gearsets, that's when I decided to get a Tremec TKO instead! Just refer to Sofa's famous quote if you're wondering how much good stronger gears do for a T5.

flyitlikustolit

Pat, which one? Are you talking about Ockham's Razor or is there another one?

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

If you mean which quote, this is the one I was referring to. { originally posted by sofakingdom
I've heard all sorts of things about "stronger gears" and all that, from any number of sources. Thing is, I've got a shelf full of T-5s with wasted cases, that EAT any gears I can put in them. Because it's not the GEARS that are the root cause of failure, it's THE CASE. Until you strengthen the CASE, you could put in gears forged in the fiery furnaces of Hell by 10,000-year-old gnomes from an alloy of purest virgin nonobtanium with just enough irreplacium added to make them one-of-a-kind, and the case will STILL stretch and allow those gears to misalign and they'll tear up. Frankly I wouldn't spend another dime on trying to make a T-5 survive behind some power. Oh wait.... I don't have to, I finally woke up and got a clue and swapped in something else; specifically, a T-56


- If you can't afford to do it right the first time, can you afford to do it again?}

mrmopar2000

Ok people, I've got one of the formula firebirds with the LB9 tpi ho 5.0 and a 5 speed trans. after looking things over and remebering what i can from the last clutch job. some of my trans looks like a world class and some like a regular t-5. My question is, how can i make absolutely sure which one i have before i start ordering parts for it. 5th gear makes a bearing noise and reverse has a broken tooth or something. If your going to tell me look for part numbers please tell me where they are at and can I get to them without pulling the trans. Also has anyone else ever had the 5th gear noise i'm getting and have had for a couple years? (it recently started getting worse so it's time to fix.) In 5th gear it sounds like a dry bearing. Thank you for all your help. Scott

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Welcome to TGO. Providing info about your car (year, make, model) will make answering your questions easier. The 83-86 or so L69's were considered the High Output cars. The WC T-5 didn't arrive until 88, IIRC, though that doesn't mean someone hasn't swapped one into your car. Info in this thread should provide you with enough to ID your current trans.

JamesC

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

There's two common places you can locate the model# of your T5. The easiest one to find, if it's there, is the metal tag that's attached to one of the tailshaft housing bolts. The model# starts with 1352-XXX. The last three digits is the model. The other place you can find it is the green and white sticker that's located on the top cover plate of the trans near the bellhousing on the driver's side. The easiest way to tell if it's a WC or non-WC is by looking at the countershaft bearing cup on the front of the trans where it meets the bellhousing. You can see the lower half of the bearing cup when the trans is still bolted up. If it's a WC model, the bearing cup will have a flat edge and the middle of it will be a recessed, flat area. Also, if you can see it on the bearing cup, the WC one is made by Timken. If it's non-WC, the bearing cup will be rounded all the way to the edge with no recess in the middle, sort of a convex shape like a blind spot mirror. If your car is an 87 or older, and you're pretty sure it's the original trans, chances are it's a non-WC.

1987CamaroZ28

This was a really helpful thread. Just goes to show how things are never simple. I have an 87 with t5, and there was a plastic cover over the filler plug that indicated to use 5w 30 oil only! That's what i've always used. A guy at a shop told me that gm did it's fuel efficiency testing using 5w 30 and got caught, so they had to indicate to all owners to use 5w 30. How much truth there is to this, i will never know. I have always used Mobil 1 synthetic 5w/30 since i've had it. Now, i'm questioning continued use due to the the things i've read in this post. Sounds like using syntheic oil can cause build up issues with some of the synchro parts. the tranny has 73k on it, and it's always done very well. I initially came to this post because I need to order a clutch set while i have the transmission out. I didn't know what disc diameter to get (10.4 or 10.5) i now know it has a 26 input spline. Any recommendations on a clutch kit? This will be used for joy riding and the occational romp. I'm putting a zz4 long block in it. I understand the t5 won't hold up to a lot of romping. I have a host of mods for the zz4, to take advantage of the extra cubes. Any help is appreciated.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

You need to ask your questions in a separate thread. This thread is for providing known information about the T5.

1987CamaroZ28

My comments and experience fit right in with the other posts. My question regarding a clutch is directly related to the T5, and was looking for comments based on "known information about the T5". I felt it was appropriate, but I will do my best to pay closer attention to my posts.

Thanks very much for the very helpful information Pat.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Either 10.4 or 10.5" will work. They're actually both the same, it just depends on what the clutch company decides to call it. I have always run McLeod clutches and been very happy with them.

Sorry about jumping on you. I just dont want this thread to turn into a "question of the day" like my Exhaust forum sticky has become.

358formula

was looking at the info above that says the 93 wct5 for 3.4 has 26 spline. will this fit my 89 350 any help would be appreciated

iroc_zz

It will not be a direct fit because the input shaft on the 1993-96 V6 is about .5" longer than the 1988-92 V8 cars.
If the bolt pattern on the bellhousing for the 3.4L was the same as the 5.7" you could just use the V6 bell to make it work but they do not have the same bolt pattern.

It may be possible to make it work by using a .5" thick motor plate and a 1988 V8 bell but the question is, would you realy want to use it?
The V6 WC T5 does not have as high of a torque rating as the V8 WC T5. You can see the difference in the teeth on the gear on the input in the picture I have attached.

(the one on the left is the 93-96 V6 and the one on the right is the 88-92 V8)

(Like Kevin91z stated this isn't a question of the day thread but I thought this question might come up enough to warrant an answer)

Project: 85 2.8 bird

I also found this article, which includes some of what has already been posted

http://www.flatheadv8.org/ernie/ernie-t5.htm

kennn

Great info, but why are 4th gears listed as 1.1?

iroc_zz

4th gear is direct drive so for 1 revolution of the input is 1 of the output

kennn

I understand, but every other ratio on that table is listed in decimal. So you would assume 1.1 = 1.10.

Someone may want to change it to "1.0" or "1:1" for clarity.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You can run a 10.75" clutch too from an 84-88 Corvette, OR you can run an lS1 pressure plate (stepped bolt holes) and an 11" disc. (I'm running an 11" disc on a 16lbs T5 flywheel. It's MILLIMETERS from the mounting bolts, but its FACTORY
on 89-96 Corvette. (11" clutch w/ 153 tooth flywheel)

-- Joe

iroc_zz

Good point, I didn't even notice the "." instead of the ":"

tshack

what do the WC T5 weight? There flywheel & clutch assy?

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Yeah, I never noticed that either. I didn't make the chart, just copied and pasted it from a really old post on here. Other than that little flaw, it's a great chart because it pretty much breaks down the ratios and model #'s on every T5 that came in the 3rd gens. Also, as stated above, it's pretty common knowledge that 4th gear is 1:1 in just about every manual trans ever produced. I use that chart a lot since it's great for a quick reference.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

As a side note to the T-5. Following is a link to the cat hanger fix:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/exha...ger-fix-p.html

JamesC