Transmissions and DrivetrainNeed help with your trans? Problems with your axle?
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I know B&M sells fluid that will firm up the shifts, but has anyone else used something different. And if so should I only use that or mix in reg. fluid.
First a history lesson. Type F oil was used up until 1976 by Ford. Up to that point is was an everyday experience to work on Ford trannies that came in with this thick, stinky varnish that used to be oil. You see, Type F was and IS an inferior oil that does NOT hold up to heat. This makes it a particularly bad choice for newer vehicles as they all run allot hotter now. I would also stay away from any oil that is supposed to make a tranny shift 'harder', that is the job of the trannies calibration where the oil's job is to transfer power and lubricate and COOL the tranny. If you are after a firmer shifting tranny then get a Valve Body kit. IF you ALSO want the tranny to last longer and FIX common problems then get the TransGo Shift kit or Reprogramming Kit.
I will say, though, that Dextron is formulated to be a compromise fluid, pitting smooth shifting against longevity. They put friction modifiers in to let the friction elements slip a little during shifts to keep the general populace comfortable.
Having said that, I'll agree that Type F was poorly formulated as well. It wasn't asked to stand up to heat, so it didn't. And, for that matter, petroleum-based Dextron fluids aren't much of a step up.
Finally, my point: AMSOIL makes what they call "Supershift", a synthetic-based ATF that does not have friction modifiers. They don't recommend it for the street, but if you mix it half-and-half with their Dextron-type synthetic ATF, you'll reduce the slippage during shifts and get the thermal and wear protection that synthetics offer. I'm probably a little over half with the mix of Supershift to Dextron ATF in the TH400 in my '57, and it has a shift kit, and I can tell you the shifting is immediate but tolerable on the street.
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82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R4. 2.93 limited slip. 2-1/2" cat-back, ZZ3 intake, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LG4 CC system w/'87 LB9 block, ZZ3 cam, ported World 305 heads, Hooker 2055 headers, 3" Catco cat & 3" catback, restalled TC, Spohn SFCs).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. '66 396, 9.7 CR forged TRWs, Weiand Action+, Holley 750VS w/4150 conversion, GK 270 cam, Magnum rockers, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" Hedders & 3" Warlocks, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & Trans-Scat shift kit, MegaShifter, 3.08 8.2" 10-bolt w/Powertrax, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Idles smooth @ 600 RPM in D. Best 15.02/95.06 @ 5800' Bandimere (corrected 13.93/102.4 @ sea level).
If heat or lubrication is a main concern I use full Synthetic oil, usually Mobil 1 due to ease of availability but I have used Amsoil also. I stand by my comments about calibration being the best way to get 'firmness' on the shift.
After seeing my TH400 direct clutches and intermediate band fried to a crisp because of the factory "smooth-shift" methodology, I have to agree with you, Leo.
But, if you have a race-only vehicle, you gotta try some of that Supershift. I think you'll be impressed. Although they just came out with it this Spring, they've had monster trucks and different types of racers using it for several seasons now.
This is not going to sound right at first but even in a full race setup you want a 'smooth' shift, just much quicker.
Does that make any sense? It goes back to the 'shock' shift, AKA B&M, et al, vs the controlled approach, IE: TransGo. Firmness is controlled by many factors, SOME of which are in the tranny. Others are the converter, axle ratio, weight of vehicle, engine setup, etc.
I used to have an article by Gil Younger (the founder of TransGo) where he talked about high performance trannies and brought it to a level most people, including myself, never thought about. It talked about the wasting of energy due to energy not being transfered but being used up twisting and distorting parts instead of going through to the rear wheels. When you think about it, many things we use to judge the operation of a tranny (tires spinning on shifts for one) have nothing to do with acceleration, which is the whole goal of going fast. Again, if you want firmer shifts it should be done properly through the calibration of the tranny not through any means that is going to shock the tranny, including oil IMHO. I am positive you can get the same results through calibration even if you do use Dexron oil.
Inside many transmission there are wave plates or 'cushions' in clutch packs. Virtually everyone when they start out take these out and replaces them with flat steels because it will give a 'firmer' shift. The funny thing is you can STILL get tire chirping shifts WITH them in place AND it will increase, in the case of a 400 for example, the life of the tranny including the intermediate sprag/roller clutch. What it allows that clutch to do is lock a split second before the clutches do. It also allows the clutches to start to apply, removing any 'slack' in the associated parts to better apply the power and transfer it to the wheels. The famous 350 intermediate roller failures are directly because the roller hasn't applied BEFORE the clutches and when it instantly has to hold power- BANG! I even put TWO waves in the Direct clutch on my street 400's! The calibration of the TransGo kit will more than make up for what YOU feel and the tranny just loves it and rewards me by lasting allot longer! Since the whole idea behind 'special' fluids is to circumvent the calibration of the tranny I choose to not use them.
I am NOT trying to criticise you in any way and I am glad to get your input on this oil. I will use it when others ask me about it. I am only relaying my own experiences in the trenches. Oh, by the way, on the band failure in the 400's you've seen, have any of them had the Direct Accumulator spring taken out to 'firm' up the 2-3 shift? This also puts the weak Overrun Band on BEFORE the Intermediate Clutches when you manually upshift a 400! It was never designed to hold the drum on acceleration, only decel and it wipes out soon enough.
[This message has been edited by transfixleo (edited September 15, 2001).]
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by transfixleo: First a history lesson. Type F oil was used up until 1976 by Ford. Up to that point is was an everyday experience to work on Ford trannies that came in with this thick, stinky varnish that used to be oil. You see, Type F was and IS an inferior oil that does NOT hold up to heat. This makes it a particularly bad choice for newer vehicles as they all run allot hotter now. I would also stay away from any oil that is supposed to make a tranny shift 'harder', that is the job of the trannies calibration where the oil's job is to transfer power and lubricate and COOL the tranny. If you are after a firmer shifting tranny then get a Valve Body kit. IF you ALSO want the tranny to last longer and FIX common problems then get the TransGo Shift kit or Reprogramming Kit.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by transfixleo: Oh, by the way, on the band failure in the 400's you've seen, have any of them had the Direct Accumulator spring taken out to 'firm' up the 2-3 shift? This also puts the weak Overrun Band on BEFORE the Intermediate Clutches when you manually upshift a 400! It was never designed to hold the drum on acceleration, only decel and it wipes out soon enough.</font>
No plurals with my TH400 experience - just this one. It was actually a low mileage tranny for a '66 - driven around town a lot. It may have been rebuilt, but it wasn't modified until I put the shift kit in it. By that time, it was fried.
Had I known about Transgo earlier, I would have looked for their kit. The mech who did the rebuild prefers their kits as well. I'll agree that the key to better effeciency and longevity is getting the internal parts working in a way that puts power to the right parts in the right sequence - that seems to be Transgo's leg up on everyone else.
I agree with transfixleo on this, you want the best fluid (oil) possible, for lubrication purposes. If you want to change the firmness of the shift it should always be done by calibration. The reason it "appears" to give firmer shifts is that the clutches slip at the first part of the shift then come on all at once at the end of the shift. Dexron 3 gives a smoother apply from the beginning all the way through to the end of the shift. Remember that Ford went to Dexron 3 (Mercon) in 1978 when they switched over from abestos (asbestos was made illegal to use in transmission clutches) to paper type of clutches.
So is it ok to use Dexron 3 in place of the recommended Dexron 2 in our 700R4s.Ive never had a prob using D2 but my local store now only keeps D3,so is this ok to use and mix with D2.
Thanks
Powermite(john)
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1990 IROC 350
Mods: Too busy trying to make it run right to mod it.
Airfoil, Dynomax cat-back, MSD coil, 180 t-stat, Bald Eagle tires,
Hypertech fan switch, Accel 23# injectors, Holley module, ported plenum,
Ported Daytona Yellow stock base, Moroso valve covers, other stuff,
Streetdampr, Ruger P95DC, hot wife, new oil filter, !cats, !TBC, !AIR.
18.0 @ 85MPH since I'm one big-a$$ MF
"It's better to have and not need than to need and not have."
That's what tranny coolers are for, guys...While I am an avid Thirdgen F-body fan, My "other car" is a '73 Ford (no brand loyalty here, although I don't much care for Mustangs) with a C-4 Automatic running Type-F and I can tell you that it has lasted every bit as long as any the GM and Chrysler automatic transmissions I have seen, and it has NEVER been "baby'd"... It shifts AWSOME and does not have any kind of aftermarket shift-kit or calibration...I have always loved how the tires break loose from the 1-2 upshift...My friend's C-6 does the same thing... Yes, it IS hard on tires and U-joints but I never cared...After all, it's a hot rod. My point being that if you run a good aftermarket cooler and change the fluid every 10,000 miles, it WILL last every bit as long as the trannys that use Dexron/Mercon. You can disagree all you want but the results don't lie...
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'83 Trans Am clone;
700R-4, 3.42:1 rearend, Z-28 suspension, H.O. dual snorkel air cleaner, H.O. exhaust manifolds & system, 180* 'stat, stock ECM. Awaiting 350 swap with CompCams 212/218 --.444/.444 -- 110* LSA
One other thing I must admit though--I really don't know the effect that Type-F may have on the different clutch materials used in later models so I really can't speak for them...I don't know if the reason Ford switched to Dexron/Mercon was a comfort issue (smoother shifts) or transmission longevity issue (different clutch materials)...I just know that I haven't had any problems with my tranny and I love the performance of it--and it's bone stock!...
for firmer shifts, i'd recommend the tci valve kit and or the b&m shift kit, along with a fairbanks billet servo, which is much better than a 'corvette' servo.
i'm running b&m trick shift, with dextron III for coloring.
chirps them right nicely all the way to 55mph
The reason Ford changed to Dexron was that in 1977-8 they took the asbestos out of the clutch material and went to a paper type lining. Type "F" was specically for the asbestos clutches. Type "F" according to Borg Warner & Raybestos has less holding power on dynamic clutches and or bands. The reason it "seems" to give a firmer shift is that it allows the clutches/band to slip longer at the beginning of the shift and then it comes on all at once at the end of the shift thereby appearing to give a firmer (bang) shift. All this occurs in about 4/10ths of a second on a good shift.
Reborn, Just use Dex III and make sure the TV Cable is set right: To adjust the TV Cable skip the book method and do this: Press the D button on the adjuster and loosen the cable setting. Now, have someone floor the gas pedal while you check to see if the throttle plate is open all the way. Usually they are off a little and will wiggle. Do whatever you have to do to get it open solid. Now, with the pedal still floored, press the D button and pull the cable casing (the black tube) back as hard as you can and release the button. You now have the engine, tranny and gas pedal all in sync at WOT. Mark the cable so if for some reason it gets moved you can know where to put it again. The problem with the 'self adjust method' is that it bends things and puts them permanently out of whack. It is also the full TV setting, which is theoretically what the GM method does.
After that if it doesn't shift 'right' it will depend on whether the tranny is slipping or not. This is determined while IN each gear, not the quality of the shift. If it holds I would recommend the TransGo Shift Kit and set it up on the conservative side. It will give nice short, clean shifts. It will also greatly increase the life of your tranny.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by reborn: I want smoother shifting more than performance in my thirdgen, whats trans fluid should I go put in it? </font>
I dont know whats its got in it but the B&G trans tune up and stop leak does smooth out shifts.
SSC
damn, I just sent my dad out to get dex II and as usual his phone aint on. Is there much of a difference from II to III??
I got a little worried today cause when I ran the car after just putting a new radiator in it (argh) I looked at the trans fluid level and it was only up to where the twist in the stick stops. Gotta be higher than that right?
oh, another thing, what rear came with the 84 HO with auto trans? I swear my spedo is wrong, im almost positive 55 on it cant be more than 45... any way to check whats wrong with it? Or if its just me lol.
"I dont know whats its got in it but the B&G trans tune up and stop leak does smooth out shifts."
Be advised to NOT use any sort of 'rebuild in a can'. They usually contain additives that swell the seals and that is how they 'restore' the tranny. I have heard of stories about the soon to follow rebuild where the seals that should be snug on the pistons just about fall off. Plus there is no telling what this does to the friction material or the bonding of the TCC clutch.
Thought so. Anyways not important now, just sold the car for $1800. Not bad considering I got it for $600 :-)
thanks for the help people, oh and that dex III stuff definately made a difference with the smoothness when shifting into drive etc. But made it bang harder into reverse. Oh well, not my problem anymore
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by T.L.: They didn't have 3.73s...The 5-speed manual H.O. models came with 3.73s--Automatics came with 3.42s</font>
I have an '84 L69 HO Auto. It has G80, GT4 codes. It has 3.73 gears. They are original.
