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Old 10-01-2001, 06:37 PM   #1
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No 3-4 shift(700R4) with gas

I have a 1986 700R4 transmission with a Raptor rebuild kit professionally installed. Here's Raptors website: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/highperflist.htm
Everything worked perfectly after overhaul 6 months ago. Last month I lost 4th gear. It's not completely gone but might as well be. While crusing on the highway, if I lift up 10% off the gas it will shift to 4th. I know it's not TCC because it's about a 30% drop in rpm's. If I give it ANY gas it will go back to 3rd, again a 30% increase in rpm's. I tach 3700 at 70mph.
Again, 4th gear worked fine for 5 months after overhaul.
This is a list of things myself and my trans builder have troubleshot:
1. Governer-replaced with known good one, no change.

2. Valve body was pulled and we checked the following for stickyness/ 2-3 shift valve train, accumulator valve, throttle valve, TV limit valve, 1-2 shift train(this one was a little stuck), 3-2 control valve.

3. 3-4 upshift valve was replaced wth the police "B" car version.

4. Inspected valve body spacer plate and replaced gaskets.

5. TV cable is adjusted properly.

6. 3-4 accumulator hole was plugged off permanently.

I need some idea what do check next. I have suspision about the 2-4 servo, the cover seems to have excessive travel. I don't have the spec to verify though. But again, this used to work for 5 months and just quit one day, no warning. So the travel must be OK because it can't change can it?

Any recommendations?


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[This message has been edited by John Millican (edited October 01, 2001).]
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Old 10-02-2001, 03:52 AM   #2
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Why did you buy a tranny and are not availing yourself of the warranty?
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Old 10-02-2001, 04:41 AM   #3
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Good question transfixleo!!!
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Old 10-02-2001, 05:47 AM   #4
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I guess you guys need to re-read the post, here's the important part-"I have a 1986 700R4 transmission with a Raptor rebuild kit professionally installed. "
It clearly says I bought the re-build kit, and I had it professionally installed(GM dealer installed)by a GM technician after hours.
I'm not trying to be smart, I just need a little guidance. If I had a warrenty don't you think I'd use it.

Update, I found out the 2-4 servo specs should be small like .060"-.125" travel. It was 6 months ago. Now it is almost .500", how can that happen? 2-4 band worn or reverse input housing collapsed? Suggestions?

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[This message has been edited by John Millican (edited October 02, 2001).]
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Old 10-02-2001, 06:42 PM   #5
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ttt
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Old 10-02-2001, 07:21 PM   #6
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The person he is refering to is me. Dana, remember I called you the other day about the '86 Camaro w/ loss of OD? This is it.

I honestly think its not a "downshifting" problem, I think the band is actually slipping. I think the huge band in the Raptor kit crushed the Reverse Input Housing (aka "drum") I think the band has enough grab to allow 4th at minimum throttle, but as soon as load increases, the band slips. Thats my theory anyway, so it comes back out this week for a look.

He does have a warranty, cause I won't do a friend wrong. But if anybody has any other ideas, please give input!

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Old 10-02-2001, 07:52 PM   #7
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But if 2nd works fine than the application of the 2-4 band must be OK. I would say an application circuit is amiss for 4th gear but I am no expert.........

Just an idea for ya........

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Old 10-02-2001, 09:18 PM   #8
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True, 2nd and 4th use the same band, but use different apply pistons. If the second apply piston is capable of traveling enough to apply the band, and the 4th isn't, that may explain. All I know now is there seems to be excessive servo travel as compared to when I built it. I went completely through the valvebody, and even installed the GM 3-4 kit.

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Old 10-03-2001, 04:15 AM   #9
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The anomoly that we usually run into is a car having 4th and no 2nd. This is due to the fact that the 2nd Servo will bottom out before the 4th Servo. If you have that type of travel I too would suspect that the drum is either dished or more likely wiped. Do you have the 'super' Servo's for both 2nd and 4th? How about pressure rise and if you have the taps, pressure readings in 4th?

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Old 10-03-2001, 06:36 PM   #10
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Tonight me and GMTech put the car on the rack, installed a pressure gauge to the main line tap. We had about 60 psi there.
We then put the pressure gauge on the 4th gear tap and ran the car through the gears. We have all 4 gears on the rack and when it went into 4th the gauge on the 4th gear tap read pressure. We could not do a max TV pressure check as the gauge only went to 100psi.

It seems since I have all 4 gears on the rack and I have good pressure in 4th, the transmission is functioning right. Except that when driving the 2-4 band must be slipping. We measured the 2-4 servo travel and got .250-.260". Seems excessive but 2nd gear works just fine. Click the image to open in full size.

I'll buy the person that figures this out a beer! Even if I have to ship it FedEx. Click the image to open in full size.

[This message has been edited by John Millican (edited October 03, 2001).]
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Old 10-03-2001, 07:01 PM   #11
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Let me elaborate some more. First, let me say that my gauge only went to 115 (I think the last tech to leave took our line pressure gauge w/ them, cause nobody can find it) so testing was limited.

Mininum TV (In Park @ idle) was 60psi. According to the factory repair manual, it should be 56-65psi.

Reverse about maxed the gauge out (about 100psi)

Driving on the rack (no load) it will shift in to OD normally.

GM doesn't offer band clearance "specs", only a "go, no-go" gauge that will not fit on the tranny unless its removed. I used specs from a reliable source, measureing the outer cover travel. When the tranny was built, it had the reccomended travel of .062"-.125". It now has, like John mentioned, about .250" of travel.

This tranny also has installed a monsterous Billet 2nd servo AND a billet 4th servo. It looks like a huge tumor sticking out the side.

I have never seen a dished, crushed, etc... Reverse Input Housing, but I can't imagine the band being burnt or glazed, especially if it will pull 104 MPH @ 7200 RPM in second gear (it pulls like a MoFo).

Any thoughts, suggestions?
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Old 10-04-2001, 11:30 AM   #12
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ttt

I really need to get this fixed please.
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Old 10-04-2001, 05:36 PM   #13
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For the clearance to have increased either the band and/or drum is worn. I have seen many drums wipe out metal to metal with the band but I have also seen the drum surface 'dish' when checked with a straight edge as it isn't always obvious unless it is bluing from heat. There is the possibility of damage to the lugs on the band or even the anchor in the case.

At this point I think I would look at that O/D Servo assy. and make sure that it is working properly. If there is any leak/crack at all that could have lead to this.

Also, what kind of induction setup do you have? If it is not specifically for a 700 you won't have the correct geometry and the tranny will be short lived.

Another possibility is that it isn't the band at all but the 3-4 pack. I have seen this on 700's and other trannies too where something else can't hold under the lower RPM (pump output/pressure) and the strain of holding in O/D. Especially with the stock minimum pressure of an '86. In '87 up you would have a minimum of 75 PSI. I know you have a huge boost valve but at or near closed throttle (especially if the geometry is off too) you are on minimum pressures, not WOT pressures. You would swear that you would find the band gone but instead you see the 3-4's burned and they give out in 4th, for now.

Unless you find a problem with the Servo it looks like this one will be coming out again.
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Old 10-05-2001, 09:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by transfixleo:

Also, what kind of induction setup do you have? If it is not specifically for a 700 you won't have the correct geometry and the tranny will be short lived.
</font>
I had a stock TPI induction ever since the re-build. I have since switched to a LT1 intake to get higher rpm's out of the motor. The loss of overdrive was with the TPI though.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Another possibility is that it isn't the band at all but the 3-4 pack. I have seen this on 700's and other trannies too where something else can't hold under the lower RPM (pump output/pressure) and the strain of holding in O/D. Especially with the stock minimum pressure of an '86. In '87 up you would have a minimum of 75 PSI. I know you have a huge boost valve but at or near closed throttle (especially if the geometry is off too) you are on minimum pressures, not WOT pressures. You would swear that you would find the band gone but instead you see the 3-4's burned and they give out in 4th, for now.
</font>
How do I increase the pressure to the 75 psi available in 1987 and later models?

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[This message has been edited by John Millican (edited October 05, 2001).]
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Old 10-05-2001, 04:45 PM   #15
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You can order the PRessure Regulator Spring for any later 700. If you get the TransGo Shift Kit/Reprogramming Kit, which is my preference, it has a 78 PSI spring in it.
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Old 10-10-2001, 01:38 PM   #16
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John, what's the latest on this? I currently have a no 4th gear situation (after a new pump, Transgo 700-2&3 kit & 2500 stall converter) in my 'bu and suspect the servo. Unfortunately my trans. knowledge is slim.

The details on my fiasco are here if you care to read them: http://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/F...ML/004929.html

All suggestions welcome. The guy who did my trans. work is 1.5 hours away and only open weekdays so I'm in a bind. I am in Atlanta so if worse comes to worse and this guy can't fix it maybe I can come see you GMTech.

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 10-11-2001, 06:59 PM   #17
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How's it going?
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Old 10-15-2001, 03:20 AM   #18
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ttt?
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Old 10-15-2001, 04:54 PM   #19
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No new information. I've had family in town all last week. Couldn't get to it. I will be pulling it soon looking for carnage.
I have been driving it daily and it's sounding funny. Sort of a low tone moan you can barily hear but I can feel it. Feels/sounds like it's coming from the tranny. It matches the engine rpm as I drive.
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Old 10-20-2001, 08:14 PM   #20
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i lost 4th in mine. turned out the sunshell broke where the shaft goes through it.
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Old 10-23-2001, 08:52 PM   #21
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UPDATE:

Well me and GM Tech took the tranny out and opened her up tonight. Nothing really looked out of the ordinary right off the bat till we got the 2-4 band out. It was burned pretty good. The reverse input housing was discolored as well. Bernard got to looking deeper, he pulled the 2-4 servo out since it was a question because of the excess travel. Turnes out the apply pin poked a hole through the 2-4 band!
That's where the extra travel came from because it was in spec when we re-built it 6 months ago. My 2-4 servo is not stock, it is a Sonnax super hold servo.
The 2-4 band wasn't a cheapy either it was a Kelver oversize powerband. It now has a hole in it!
What 2-4 band is the absolute best that won't get a hole poked through the steel?
Looking deeper we also noticed the 3-4 clutchs are looking burned as well as the steels. think this is related to the 2-4 band slipping or just early failure starting to show?

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[This message has been edited by John Millican (edited October 23, 2001).]
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Old 10-23-2001, 08:58 PM   #22
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Here is a pic of a stock band:

Click the image to open in full size.


Here is John's w/ a hole in it:

Click the image to open in full size.

So how the hell do you prevent that from happening again? Like John said, this wasn't no cheap band.

Yeah, and the 3-4 clutches had "hot spots" here and there. I guess its time for a TransGo reprogramming kit.


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[This message has been edited by GMTech (edited October 23, 2001).]
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Old 10-24-2001, 04:24 AM   #23
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My suggestions would be: Put the Super Servo on E-bay, Install the TransGo Reprogramming Kit, Replace the Servo with the Vette Servo, Install the 4L60E 3/4 pack and B/W High Energy frictions along with the B/W High Energy Band. If the drum isn't FLAT replace it with new. Install the TransGo Hi Rev Pump Ring Kit. Go out and enjoy it for years and years!
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Old 10-25-2001, 08:29 AM   #24
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Yeah, that servo must 'gots' some serious holding power. Wow!

Was there any other damage to the band, egg-shaped pin hole or the forks unbending?

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Old 10-26-2001, 12:11 AM   #25
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Wow, never seen that happen before either. I guess one could speculate that the added stress from the 2-4 band not operating correctly could have added some stress to the 3-4 pack as well with all of the improper shift timing and whatnot.... I would double check all of the 3-4 circuits as well, but I am sure you know what to do Click the image to open in full size. ......

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Old 10-26-2001, 07:03 PM   #26
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Looking at the 2-4 bands from the side, the OEM band's advantages are obvious, there is much more support where the apply pin rests. I'm using the new style 4L60-E band, the only time I have seen one of those burnt is because of a siezed sprag, and that wasn't the bands fault, so I'm pretty confident in the OEM band.

The Reverse Input Housing (aka "DRUM") has heat marks all the way through the metal, and is slighty warped, so its in the trash

The 3-4 Clutches were not burnt, but has "hot spots". I'm not sure if it was because the 8 clutch setup Raptor uses has clearance so tight, but the '86 tranny doesn't use 3-4 release springs that they may have been dragging, or its possibly due to the band or what, but I'm putting release springs in, new clutches/steels, and a TransGo reprogramming kit, so I shouldn't have to worry about that.

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Old 10-27-2001, 08:41 AM   #27
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GM, you can use the 4L60E 3-4 pack, either complete or just the top and bottom plates which will allow you to use regular thickness steels, along with the High Energy 4L60E frictions, allowing extra frictions. Unless there is allot of power, I like to use the stock 4l60E steels for their heat sink capability. With the Hi Rev Release Springs that come in the TransGo Kit you will likely not have any more problems (except for normal mechanically caused problems, such as bushing wear allowing parts to rub, etc).

Warped drum? Welcome to the club!

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Old 10-28-2001, 03:53 PM   #28
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transfixleo,
you talk about the using OEM parts, i was just curoius, when i first put my car togetther about a yr and 1/2 ago , i bought a TCI kevlar rebiuld kit with all the stuff in it clutches bamds, seals etc... would you suggest using OEM stuff still or will i be just fine with the TCI products?
also.... before i mess with the ('91)700 thats in my car should i swap to a TH350 OR 400 for "reliability", i've been advised this several times.
if i install those trans-go return springs,and the proper 3/4 pack ,& i allready have a trans-go kit in my car now , will it be as "tough " as a TH350 ?
thanx mike

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Old 10-28-2001, 04:22 PM   #29
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Transfixleo,
i just read another post about a trans not shifting, and you were talking about the govenor needing recalibrating, i didnt tell you in the above post that my tranny is from a 91 roadmaster,( see post: something went kaput!)my car is doing the same thing i suddenly lost 3 and 4, i went from barking 3rd and 4th hitting hard as hell to gone like that! how ever i was able to drive it home and if i gave it gas it wind up to about 4k and then kinda pop into gear, could my converter have taken a crap since the stall speed has been slowly increasing over time as well a shuddering when gaas is applied beneath 3500 , have you ever seen a stock converter stall to 3200 when crusing ? this tranny only has 41K onit and the fluid doesnt smell burnt?
if can build a motor ,i can rebuild a tranny right? where can i get a manual with specs?
thanx again, mike

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87GTA ,10.5:1,4-bolt 355,afr 190's, super ram ,stock poerted base,58mmTB,24 lb FMS inj. ed wright chip, .510/230 (nr) 1&5/8 hooker shorty's, flow master single 3", 2800 ameri-torque non lk-up, 3.73. best to date with stk 48mm tb and lack of traction in 1st gear netted me a 12.9 @110mph /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73
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Old 10-28-2001, 07:22 PM   #30
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I am not a big fan of the Kevlar stuff. Even the OEM's are getting over their phase of using them and going with other high energy materals that seam to work better.
A 350 is a good tranny no doubt but they haven't been made in a loooong time and I suspect parts are starting to get worn out. I like the 700 or 200-4R more than the 350 or even the old faithfull 400.

As for stall creep, well if it stalls high in reverse too then I'll go along with the converter being bad but if it doesn't then you are talking about the Forwards (as well as the 3-4's) slipping. You can get a good manual from ATSG to use as a guide.
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Old 10-29-2001, 08:26 PM   #31
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first i just wanted to say thanks for for helping everybody out, i cant help but noticed that you respond to alot of post,
thanks for the info on the manual,
where do i get "high energy" internals from?
another thing i'm questioning..is my tranny kit , i said it had kevlar clutches and bands , however my clutches say borg/warner automotive? i know the band is kevlar cause i ordered it seperately.
i dont mind buying another kit if i have too i just want to rid my self of trans issues and finally enjoy this car,
i really dont want to switch, i just want a reliable trans though Click the image to open in full size.
once again Transfixleo, thanks!

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87GTA ,10.5:1,4-bolt 355,afr 190's, super ram ,stock poerted base,58mmTB,24 lb FMS inj. ed wright chip, .510/230 (nr) 1&5/8 hooker shorty's, flow master single 3", 2800 ameri-torque non lk-up, 3.73. best to date with stk 48mm tb and lack of traction in 1st gear netted me a 12.9 @110mph /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73
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Old 10-29-2001, 08:35 PM   #32
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Car: 87 trans am GTA
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"switch " as in 700 to 350 , my friend laughs at me when i brought up rebuilding the 700, do the 91 700/4L60's have the "good" pumps in them? what else other than the 4l60e 3/4's and the hi-rev springs supplied by trans-go do i need to have a reliable 700? you advised also about avoiding the too hard 1-2 shift right?
thank s mike

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87GTA ,10.5:1,4-bolt 355,afr 190's, super ram ,stock poerted base,58mmTB,24 lb FMS inj. ed wright chip, .510/230 (nr) 1&5/8 hooker shorty's, flow master single 3", 2800 ameri-torque non lk-up, 3.73. best to date with stk 48mm tb and lack of traction in 1st gear netted me a 12.9 @110mph /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73
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Old 10-29-2001, 09:21 PM   #33
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First off, I would defintaly avoid the "super billet servo". That is what caused all of Johns problems. I have the corvette servo, and I like it, which provides firm, but not rediculous shifts.

There are alot of upgrades you could use, like the later 4L60-E band, 3/4 clutches and foward sprag, and I think the TransGo is a must also.

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Old 10-29-2001, 09:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Millican:

I'll buy the person that figures this out a beer! Even if I have to ship it FedEx. Click the image to open in full size.

</font>

Am I excluded?


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Old 10-30-2001, 03:30 AM   #35
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Borg Warner makes both regular and High Energy frictions (including bands). IF you buy clutches and band for a late model 4L60E they will be High Energy. They have a dark green color, dark enough that it is difficult to read the ink on them. This is not the same green of the (dry) kevlar though. I strongly suggest avoiding a 'bang' 1-2 shift for a number of reasons, not just the durability of the Sun Shell but for optimum acceleration. The 'Vette Servo is fine for performance use as GM said. Back in the '80's, TransGo experimented with and dropped the idea of a larger Servo. They found that there was too much overlap when you used it. Now they are being sold by another company that frankly does not do the R&D that TransGo does and it is just "if a little is good then allot must be better" and that just isn't always so. Another weak area is the Input Sprag and again there are aftermarket parts that to some at least, on paper, sounded good but didn't hold up in the real world. The best I have seen for long term durabibity is the 4L60E 29 element Sprag assy. You must use the late model Overrun Clutch Hub with this though, not just drop it in place of the original.

By the way, who gets the beer or do we all split a 6-pack??!!
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Old 10-30-2001, 11:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">By the way, who gets the beer or do we all split a 6-pack??!![/b]</font>

Leo, you have mail!


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Old 10-30-2001, 04:20 PM   #37
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Thanks I got it but it left me a little dry!
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Old 10-30-2001, 08:17 PM   #38
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Car: 87 trans am GTA
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Transmission: 93 T-56
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when i put the trans-go kit in my trans i went with the medium 1-2 shift as they reccomened in the instructions, the trans-go kit came with a servo so thats fine i take it..right?
would i be safe ordering the tranny overhaul kit from a dealer or like discount? i get a shop discount from a local chevy dealer
the sprag you speak of, is that the forward sprag that GMtech was refering too in the above post ?
i'm looking up ASTG with a search
(automotive service technical guide(s)) right?
thanks boss!

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87GTA ,10.5:1,4-bolt 355,afr 190's, super ram ,stock poerted base,58mmTB,24 lb FMS inj. ed wright chip, .510/230 (nr) 1&5/8 hooker shorty's, flow master single 3", 2800 ameri-torque non lk-up, 3.73. best to date with stk 48mm tb and lack of traction in 1st gear netted me a 12.9 @110mph /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73
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Old 10-30-2001, 09:20 PM   #39
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hey guys!
i ordered my ASTG manual from TRNi and got the hight energy part#'s from the B/W website
wooo! i hope i can this Click the image to open in full size.
thanks everybody for there help!

------------------
87GTA ,10.5:1,4-bolt 355,afr 190's, super ram ,stock poerted base,58mmTB,24 lb FMS inj. ed wright chip, .510/230 (nr) 1&5/8 hooker shorty's, flow master single 3", 2800 ameri-torque non lk-up, 3.73. best to date with stk 48mm tb and lack of traction in 1st gear netted me a 12.9 @110mph /91 TA daily driver LB9 A4 2.73
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