topless87

I am needing to find a company that sells TKO600 (Tremec) transmission kits for our third gen camaros. Our T-5 went south a few weeks back, and my son wants to not waste money so he would like to put a TKO into his '86 Z/28 with a nasty 355cid 510HP/485ft lb SBC that is rippin' up regular T-5's (See 1986 Z/28 355/510HP ). Anyone got any idea who to talk with about this conversion? Thanks.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/3rd_gen_camaro.html

topless87

You know, I have sent in a quote request to them and personally emailed the owner, but still haven't heard back from them. They offer exactly what we are needing, but I honestly don't know if they are still in business. Have you done business with them or know if they are still in business? Thanks for the reply.

stroken85z

fortes performance makes a complete kit. that is what i have and love it.it is actually a ford tranny so youll have to get a different u joint but that was easy my local napa got it done.drive shaft didnt have to be shortened on mine.stock crossmember works with the adapters he sends but i will be swithing that out this winter.only things not in the kit were the shift handle and clutch.the adapter plate he sends looks like realy good craftmanship.

topless87

So does that transmission use a different input spline? The 5speedtransmission.com tranny used a 26 spline input so i wouldn't have to change out the clutch (trying to save the son a few dollars). Also, does forte have a web address. I can ask for a quote from them if they do. Hurst driveline called me, but said there was too much to talk about, they needed more info, but probably could help out with 95% of the conversion. Its the other 5% i am worried about. You have already been a big help, anything else that I should know? Thanks again.

topless87

Hey Stroken85z, did you have any console interference problems with the shifter on that TKO600? My son wants to know. He doesn't want to hack up his pride and joy. Thanks

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

5speedtransmissions.com/JAM performance transmissions is owned by Wedan Street and Performance. I'm 99% sure they are in business, but they are SLOW. I bought my setup from JAM way back in Jan 05 before Wedan got involved. They do include a complete setup to swap our cars over. The only mod I had to do was make a spacer to move the shift arm back to stock location. The TKO shifter position is 2" ahead of the stock T5. The trans uses a C6 output yoke so you'll need a combination u joint to put it on your stock driveshaft. It comes with a special McCleod adapter to bolt the TKO600 to your stock bellhousing, you will need an offset pilot bushing which at the time was not in the kit but I got one of the first ones. it also comes with aluminum spacer blocks to relocate the trans crossmemeber and a torque arm mount that uses a stock type poly torque arm bushing.

Frankly if you have that much power I wouldn't use all the adapters and crap. First, the trans to bellhousing adapter plate does not support the front bearing retainer on the countershaft completely. As the trans operates gear separation forces try to push the countershaft forward and out the bottom of the case. This force along with the fact that the adapter does not support the bearing retainer caused the retainer to push out the front of the case and the bearing failed. My trans locked up on me at the drag strip and I had to rebuild it because of this. I had my adapter modified to support the countershaft bearing after the rebuild, I can post pics if you need proof.

After I did all this I then bent my stock bellhousing and the trans started eating pilot bushings. So I installed a Lakewood bellhousing and all has been well since.

With the power and torque I'm making I should have got the good parts to begin with but I learned the hard way.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

i would like to see this, as i have not heard of this issue before. I have the kit from Fortes, and it uses an adapter as well, i dont know if its the same one or not, or if it adds this needed support.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I argued this with Forte himself. He didn't believe my theory either, but I don't care. I think the pictures speak for themselves, I'm not new to this kind of work and I'm confident that the McCleod adapter does not support the trans effectively for high power applications. Below is a copy and paste from an old post on the F-body road race forum when this all happened.... Read and let me know if you agree.

[quote name='1meanZ' date='Aug 16 2008, 02:26 PM' post='130260']
I'll do my best to keep this short but still give all relavant information

bought and installed the trans in spring of 2005 behind a 300hp 305. Never had an issue with dirty fluid or noise.

spring 2007 installed 383 no noises, didnt replace fluid all summer.

Fall 2007 drain trans to remove and rebuild 383. fluid had lots of fine metal dust in it. Was very concerned about the look of the fluid, but the trans was quiet and worked fine so I didn not take it apart looking for a ghost.

Spring 2008, 383 rebuilt and installed. trans started making noise (howling) in 1-2-3 and 5th gear. with clutch out in neutral trans made a rattling sound, similar the sound of a loose heat shield on a muffler or something. Began to be concerned about the noise, then one day the noise completely went away. Trans always worked just fine, noise just came and then went.

August 4th, trans starts making noise again. same noise as before, still worked perfectly, no noise in neutral with clutch out. didnt know what to do really so just kept driving it thinking the howling noise might go away. Trans still made no noise in 4th gear.

August 8th, after an evening at the drag strip (complete dump hole, no track prep, no traction anywhere in 1st or 2nd gear) the trans was really noisey as we left the strip, I began to really be concerned. The trans then began to make an agressive howling sound, (i now know this was the sound of the bearing race and retainer spinning in the trans case) I drove home the rest of the way in 4th gear. Got 6 blocks from home, trans locked up and pushed car home with the help of some good samaratins at 1:30 am.

Took trans out and found that front bearing retainer on cluster shaft was protruding from trans case about 1/32" and had spun leaving a mark in my trans-to-bellhousing adapter.

I learned that the front bearing retainer is not pressed into the case. It is pushed in by hand or tapped in lightly with a mallet and is held in with an O-ring. (see exploded view) It is designed to rely on the bellhousing to keep itself square in the bore, and to keep the proper depth.

As you can see my trans adapter only supports the bearing retainer about halfway. Since the mark left on the adapter is a ring, and not a filled in circle, I have to think the bearing retainer got crooked because of lack of support, and caused the bearing to go bad. (this is why the noise came and went, the retainer would move around) If the bearing just went bad and spun the retainer, it should have left a filled in circle mark on my adapter not a ring.

I'm having my trans adapter machined and installing a 1/4" steel plate to fully support the bearing retainer just like a bellhousing would. IF there was a bellhousing available that would work with my stock hydraulics, and fit the tremec bolt pattern I'd throw the adapter in the trash and use the correct bellhousing. From everything I can find, there is not a bellhousing for my application that allows the use of stock hydraulics. I'm keeping the stock hydraulics because they are nearly new, they were expensive, and it is easy to service. If I was swapping to a 'stick in one of these cars from scratch, I'd use an SFI approved bellhousing and slave cylinder that goes over the input shaft, but I'm trying to stick with what I have right now to keep the costs livable.

The question is, do you guys think that the lack of support caused the bearing retainer to get crooked? Or do you think I just got a bad bearing? Every shop I've called says they've never heard of this type of failure on a Tremec TKO.

Here is the diagram red circle shows components, blue circle shows bearing retainer.


Here is the adapter over the trans case. you can see how much of the clustershaft bearing is not supported, about half.


Here you can see the adapter on the bellhousing and where the retainer spun.



Here is a close up of the retainer damage itself.



Here is the inside of the bearing retainer. you can see the outer race, whats left of the cage, and the not so round bearings. The inner race is still on the clustershaft. The heat marks are from where I welded a bolt on the outside of the bearing retainer so I could pull it out, it was stuck in the case.

[/quote]

[quote name='1meanZ' date='Aug 19 2008, 10:48 PM' post='130469']
Just got my adapter back from the machine shop. They did very nice work. I think this will support the bearing retainer like it is supposed to.

My trans parts just came in today too. Should have the trans back together this Saturday if all goes according to plan.



[/quote]


I still own the adapter pictured if anyone wants it let me know.. Below is a link to the thread on frrax if anyone is interested to see what those guys said.

http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.p...2086&hl=TKO600

Badass355ciz28

iTrader: (17)

1meanz...you have a pm

topless87

I'm glad you posted all the info, it is very good for us that are getting ready for the conversion. What is the "offset pilot busing"? And how do you offset a pilot bushing, I thought they were there to keep everything from "floppin" around on the input shaft. Thats the only thing I don't quite get. Now if I could just get your pictures to display, that would be a good deal. Appreciate ya.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Yes, your findings are valid and the support plate is a proper fix. Your bearing held up until thing starting moving out of their proper installed location and wasn't the reason for failure. The only real critique here is that you didn't pull it w/ the metal oil or the noise. The fix could be done w/ alum. IMO.

It's been a long time since I've built one but didn't the T5 countershaft front bearing outer race have a ridge that prevented it from going out the front of the case?

Just think, if a T5 were installed on an adapter with that issue, sofakingdom would have another reason to hate on those transmissions.

I just want to know if it would allow the 4th gen V6 T5 to bolt up to the third gen T5 bellhousings.

topless87

I am interested in the adaptor plate if it will hold the bearing retainer in now. thanks

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

1. if I would have pulled the trans I would have likely found the bad bearing but not realized it was due to a crooked bearing retainer under load.
2. A T5 has the same style of bearing retainer. it is to be supported and kept flush by butting up on the bellhousing.
3. The TKO case is drilled for the square ford pattern, or the offset GM pattern but there are different input shaft lengths between GM and Ford applications as well so you have to be careful about things. In theory the TKO would bolt to a V6 bellhousing, but the V6 bell won't fit a V8.

As for the offset pilot bushing listed above. the trans to bellhousing adapter is 1" thick, so it slides the trans back 1 inch. This pulls the input shaft out of the pilot bushing too far, so you have to have a special pilot bushing, or a special adapter for a standard pilot bushing.

stroken85z

as for the clutch yes you can use the stock one but spend the money and replace since your there anyways. the adapter that they r talkin bout ive got no info for u but i know mine is not the mcloed mine is made at fortes.dont bother sending fortes an email just call them.you can google fortes performance.no cutting anything on console he sends a shifter that you can adjust it so the handle sits wherever you want it to.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

the adapter Mike Forte uses is made by McLeod. That is what he himself told me when I spoke with him about the issue I've outlined above.

stroken85z

that may be the case i cant be sure one way or the other but now you got me worried never heard of that issue before

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

thanks for the info 1meanZ. I'll keep this in mind. m maybe when its time for a new clutch i will have the adapter modified liek you did.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Well it was frustrating when Mike blew me off. This could be a epidemic among high powered cars with this adapter plate. It's a **** poor reason to destroy a trans thats for sure.

stroken85z

was your tranny repair covered under the warranty

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

If you are talking to me no it wasn't. I wanted it done in a short period of time and I wanted it done correctly. I didn't want to mess with shipping it all over and no one gave me the inclination that it would be covered so I just rebuilt it myself. It's been fine since.

topless87

1meanz, can you tell me how the adaptors for the crossmember are supposed to be installed? I have the tko600 with all the adaptors from Fortes and I'm not sure how to adapt the crossmember (those aluminum blocks). I'd like to understand it all before I try to install it and start cussing By the way, Fortes is now including a thin plate to keep the cluster in place. Thanks, I'm needing some guidance from someone who has already done it.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I don't have any pictures of how my adapter blocks fit the car, and I don't have them on the car anymore. Frankly I can't even remember for sure how they went. Sorry I can't be of help on that.

It does not surprise me that Forte is offering a fix. I knew what I was saying was right, frustrating when no one will admit there is a problem and make it right. Oh well, at least it was a learning experience....

topless87

Hey, I appreciate the reply at least. Thanks for the good info that you have provided.

topless87

Fortes now sends a thin plate that goes between the adaptor and the TKO trans to keep the cluster in place. Just FYI, as I just purchased it all from them. Didn't get the adjustable shifter so I will have to inquire. It came with the stock TKO shifter. Anyone like/dislike the factory TKO shifter?

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I'm using the stock TKO shifter and it's OK.

topless87

Thanks, what shifter handle are you using (is it straight, bent, offset, etc and how tall is it, if you know) so that it doesn't hit the console? I know I'm asking alot, I just don't want to be under the car or about finished and not have the correct parts to get it done on a weekend. Appreciate you!

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

So, with all this in mind. What is the BEST(over 600rwhp) way to get a TKO in the car. At this point I'm willing to pay more to have a 100% bolt in my t5 car.

I would like to reuse my NEW clutch/flywheel if possible along with my Denny's nitrous ready driveshaft.


Thanks

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

When i first installed it I used a 2"x2" block to move the shift lever straight back. I used a pro 5.0 shift lever. Now with the lakewood bellhousing, no adapter plate, IRS swap and all I just made a custom console plate and my own shift lever.

Get the 82/92 f-body bellhousing from lakewood (same one I'm using but I forget the PN). with that you can use your stock clutch flywheel and hydraulics. Get the torque arm adapter from Forte or Wedan S&P or i can sell you mine. Don't know if you'll need the adapter blocks for your cross member, I'd guess you will. that should be all you need. The TKO can be ordered with the GM input shaft and the case will be drilled for the GM bellhousing pattern so you could use your stock bellhousing. With 600hp I would not do that however. I'm 99% sure I bent my stock bellhousing with my 383, so I would go with the lakewood for strength and safety. I always used my stock driveshaft but you'll need a Ford C6 yoke put on the end of it.

topless87

NufNuffZ28, when we get finished with this conversion (probably 2 weeks, my son is out of town this weekend for sports) I will be able to tell you a WHOLE lot more. 1MeanZ has pretty good experience with this stuff and I haven't found him wrong yet.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Thanks, that is exactly what I will do. All my hydros and clutch is practically new, so I'd hate to replace them. i will opt for the Lakewood bellhousing though. I do like my legs! I am getting a custom made torque arm, so we can fab something up on that as we go. It is going to mount on a custom made crossmember I have already installed.

Thanks for your help!

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

glad I can help. I've taken a lot from this site over the years and it's just as important to give back.

If your engine sounds noisier with the lakewood bellhousing don't be alarmed. The first time I started my engine with that bellhousing I thought it had a bottom end noise. The bellhousing is so rigid that it transmits lots of engine noise compared to the aluminum bellhousing. Also, bolt the bellhousing and the engine protection plate together on the workbench and tack weld the nuts to the engine plate. This makes bolting the bellhousing to the engine plate MUCH easier in the car. you'll see what I mean when you get the bellhousing.

Also get the offset adjustable dowel pins to put in your engine block and very carefully indicate the bellhousing so that it is centered about the crankshaft. Lakewood's website has good instructions on how to do this.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I have plenty of time as it will be a winter project for me, but I want to actually drive my car in the next few weeks for a month or so. Post it up in here!

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

also be aware that the tko is a lot taller than the trans tunnel, so it will move the engine and trans to a greater downward angle toward the back of the car. This affects k-member/y-pipe exhaust clearance, as well as other places a little. In a perfect world, the trans tunnel should be modified. I raised mine, and im pretty sure 1meanZ did too.

fyi

as for the cluster support being supplied by fortes, i assume the adapter plate is machined for it? when it comes time for a clutch change, i will be looking to install the support.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I did have to dent the ribs in my floor up slightly to clear the auxillary shift plates. That was with the stock bell housing, trans adapter, and cross member relocation. I never checked my driveline angle, but I didnt have any abnormal driveline vibrations. The driveshaft was almost too long, but it did fit and work properly with full suspension travel. now with my IRS swap all bets are off, I completely cut the tunnel out and raised it to clear the trans, but that is a whole other story.


It almost makes me angry that Forte blew me off back when my trans failed but now its a regular offering....

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Just another opinion and we know how those are but... That's a good recipe & reason for going LT1 style T56.

I even went that way in part because at the time I had two cars which had the same driveshaft length. If I ever have to troubleshoot driveline vibrations, I can just borrow the other shaft/yoke assy.

I just don't see any benefit to the TKO over the T56 except the speedo cable (send the tailhousing to alloy...) and that the LT1 box w/ ratios 2.66 / .50 requires more rear gear in a lot of cars to work right.

topless87

FYI, the cluster support plate is a 1/8" steel flat plate with just the necessary holes for mounting and input support so it sandwiches in between the adaptor plate and the transmission. You can actually fab one if you have to. I will try to take pictures of everything in the box so you can all see what is in the kit now.

topless87

What did you use to dent your floor ribs up with, a BFH or maybe a floor jack? It's time for me to do it. Thanks

topless87

i should have everything unboxed this weekend, so I will shoot pictures of everything laying out to give everyone an insight as to what they would get if they bought a TKO "late F kit" from Fortes. Hope my camera has batteries

jmd

iTrader: (4)

One way is to keep shimming under the trans. mount. It'll clearance itself. (I'm prepared to hear that's a hack way to do it. It works.)

topless87

There aren't any mirrors under my sons car so I'm not worried about its appearance, just clearance, so I will just keep on with the install and let it do its thing. My son said that his floor braces where already dented (probably from ripping out the trans mount 3-4 times and the trans coming up in the tunnel, LOL). Thanks for the suggestion, they are ALL welcome during this conversion.

topless87

Trying to post a picture of the parts that I got with my TKO kit from Fortes. Not sure it will post. See this link for pictures - 1986 Z/28 355/510HP

topless87

Another shot of the kit parts from Fortes (trans isn't in picture)

jmd

iTrader: (4)

You're posting the picture location on your computer.
Upload to Imageshack or somewhere like that and do the [ IMG ] so it's pointing to that address.
Or attachments to the post should work.

topless87

I sent you a PM, thanks

topless87

For a couple of pictures of the Fortes extra parts that came with our TKO600RR, see the picture gallery named : 1986 Z/28 355/510HP Hope this helps anyone else and thanks to all of you who have helped me. If there are snags or tips, I will add them after attempting the install this weekend.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I see that gallery on the right side link under your profile

Nice to see you've got a fix in yours.

Maybe McLeod will update the plate in the future.

topless87

Lets see if this picture will show.

topless87

And the same shot with the shim plate laying on the bellhousing adaptor.

topless87

Sorry, posted same picture twice.