Justin93

Hey There everyone, i've spent mind-boggling hours trying to complete a list of what i need to bolt up my Ford 9" rear end into my 91 Camaro RS which im seeking to put a mildly built up pre-86 corvette block with a borg warner Manual T-5 Trans, currently has the 305 HO and automatic Trans with Over drive and stocker 7.5 10 Bolt Rear end.

I picked up a Moser Ford 9" off Craigslist for quite the steal of a deal, im having trouble finding the rest of the invoicing for my complete set i purchased off him, He had purchased the Rear End in a Storage auction, and thats how i manage to pick up the rear end with disc brake package, prop. valve, gears, and much more. I will be uploading more pics on this thread as i move along with the project.

Now with that in understanding, Ill State some parts that i have and will need help deciphering parts that may be unnecessary to my build, or worth selling/changing direction to compliment my build and include the pertaining parts needed for my application

Here's the parts strictly on the Moser Receipt


PART # 7800
BIG FORD HOUSING ENDS 1/2" Holes
http://www.moserengineering.com/big-ford-1-2-holes.html

PART # 9508B
BIG FORD/OLDS/PONTIAC BEARING SEALED BALL BEARING W/ O RING
http://www.moserengineering.com/big-...-1-531-id.html

PART # 3062NOD
NODULAR 3.062" OD CARRIER
http://www.moserengineering.com/3-06...ize-cases.html

PART # PY200
9" FORD PINION YOKE/ 1350 SERIES 28 SPLINE
http://www.moserengineering.com/9-fo...ne-pinion.html

PART # 8254
12MM X 1 1/2" .505 KNURL
http://www.moserengineering.com/12mm...hevy-12mm.html

PART # PS028
9" FORD DAYTONA PINION SUPPORT - 28 SPLINE
http://www.moserengineering.com/9-fo...28-spline.html

PART # SB9C
9" FORD SPOOL BEARINGS/CARRIER BEARINGS W/ 3.062 OD"
http://www.moserengineering.com/9-ford-w-3-062-od.html

PART # 09F350M
9" FORD 3.50 PRO/STREET RING & PINION
http://www.moserengineering.com/cata...350M&x=32&y=11

PART # 838TK
3/8" T-BOLT KIT
http://www.moserengineering.com/part...-bolt-kit.html

PART # R9FCD
Setup Kit Ford 3.062" OD case, Daytona Pinion Support
http://www.moserengineering.com/9-fo...n-support.html

PART # 7230 Torque Arm Bracket *No Link/pictures available, However does this the require the Torque Arm Bracket part #CE-7009
http://www.currieenterprises.com/ces...E.aspx?id=1595
?

If so Is an Adjustable Torque Arm Recommended? Or ?..

There are more parts included in the sale but they were ordered seperately from Moser Engineering. I have the receipt and invoicing for all of the parts listed but i am still constantly learning new things and would prefer to do it right the first time rather then spontaneously purchasing what i think is 'right'..

If anyone can send me some advice/tips or suggestions for what is actually needed to put the rear into my third gen and optimally setup for street/daily driver use.
I appreciate all info and replies in advance and hope to hear from you! When im off work ill be posting more pictures and information of what was also included with the storage auction, apparantly its got the diff welded on it

As for as whats already under the car..
Also i have Alston Inner SFC, Spohn Outter SFC, ADJ. Panhard bar, 34mm/ Rear sway, 24mm/ Front sway both Spohn, Spohn adj. Wonder Bar, Eibach Sportline Springs, Koni Yellow Adj. Shocks/struts, Hotchkis Strut Tower Brace, Hotchkis Lower Rear trailing arms *No RLCARB INSTALLED-Waiting to install moser rear end so i can weld them to the axle ( suggestions?) Stocker Wheel Set as well (16's Potenza tires), im waiting to custom order a set of light weight wheels and prefer to add some width in my rear tires without having any spacers or anything.
So after installing my engine/trans/and rear axle.
Will i need a custom Drive shaft?... 1350 yoke to 1350 yoke ? i dont want to run into grinding or loud noises coming from the shaft/yoke so if anyone has used the 1310 - 1350 yoke and could elaborate how it performs and is working for you that would be great)
I've heard of Inland empire Driveline Service but unassure if a custom drive shaft is where my money should be going towards to complete the rear end installation.

This vehicle isn't going to see much of the strip if not maybe once a year, i will also be taking it to a sanctioned Racer vs Police car track at some point after the vehicles completion

Im aware that this rear end setup is slightly, if over kill for my below 450 HP Intended build. However i love my third gen and im always trying to learn and would rather put quality parts then junk in my Daily Driver.

The Engine and Trans was a donor from my 1st 84 z28 camaro and the rear end i got on a whim because it came with so much extra stuff from baer prop. valve stainless steel lines and plenty of goodies. For 400$ it was hard to pass up, now its just figuring out how i can configure (if applicable) the 9" to my Plans and intended use and what parts and service might be required prior to fitment on my third gen 91 RS.
Ill stop typing now
And hope to hear from anyone soon that may have better experience in this category

Justin93

So with a little bit more time invested in my research, i found that my 91 stock has 28 spline axles as is

And seeing as i have 28 spline axles for the 9" i think is a little redundant ? correct me if im wrong.
the vehicle isn't going to be necessarily having a brigade of ponies behind her (Peak- Low-low 400HP and 350ftlb torque + rough estimate)

Clarify if im wrong though but wouldn't it be ideal to have 31+ spline for ridgity and structural integrity ? More importantly would it supply longetivity and be applicated to better suit my build?


Just would like a little assurance from someone whose already done it or knows what there talking about, i don't know much about gearing, lockers and axles. Most i've done to an axle was my 93 k1500 wheel cylinders, bearings and seals along with complete rear drum brake with hardware so im lacking in knowledge and could use some words of wisdom From you rear end Guru's or even fellow DIY'ers.

Worst comes to worst ill sell my gears and 28 spline parts and go for a full axles and locker package but if thats the case, What should i be looking to investing into ? and is this even an ideal switch or would i be fine and have little to nothing to worry if i stuck the 28 spline and called it a day ?

Will i need to change my 3.062 Iron cast center section ?

anything else i might run into trouble with if it was a better application to ditch the 28 spline and upgrade to 31 if not which spline ?...



Sorry if these are 'Noob' questions.. i just need a little or even someones to steer me in a more proper direction with my build plans.
This subject has been making me so i appreciate and Thank you in Advance for your responses.

big gear head

There were no axles on your list, and no differential. If you have a welded differential then trash that right now and don't even think about using it.

I would upgrade to 31 spline axles. A 9 inch with 28 spline axles is a complete waste of time and money. I don't know why anyone would consider using a nodular case and Daytona pinion housing with 28 spline axles.

There are several after market Traction Lock differentials for the 9 inch Ford that are pretty good. DO NOT use a stock Ford Traction Lock. A Truetrac would also be a good choice. You do not need to upgrade your 3.062 nodular case for this.

Everything else on the list looks fine. I'm assuming that the correct brakes were ordered for the housing ends that are on this housing. I would also recommend getting a set of OEM Ford axle seals to use in this. The O ring bearings often leak and the OEM seals do a good job. Just ask for a set of seals for a '79 F150 and they should be correct.

Justin93

Thanks for the ton of info Big Gear Head, I will post pictures After work this evening of my Rear end, its the Housing that appears to be welded (Pardon my lack of term knowledge) but im not as educated in this field of drive train enough to 100% validate it is in fact a welded diff (i mean i dont even have a differential)..

Im comparing it to the pictures of how they ship out the rear end and it looks no different, Gutless from where the driveshaft- center section - yoke - diff go in place, but on the rear where the axle cover usually goes it seems welded on ? either way its definetly not coming off and before i dig this up any more or call it a loss ill add pictures asap.





You are correct the package did NOT come with Axles or a locker/differential i also questioned the seller this and he didn't know anything about a motor vehicle other than the gas and brake pedal and what they do.
This is why i got the package for 400$,
The Brakes are the PBR Kit 13" Rotors in rear 2 piston caliber, No different from the El dorado calipers. also included proportioning valve, stainless steal lines, the brackets and back plates to install as well.



I've seen a couple lockers im interested in like the Eaton Elocker which would be fun to have on board control of open rear and limited slip but this is more of a 'for fun' idea rather then 'practical/ideal'.

For the Price of that locker (800$) i compared it to this set
http://www.moserengineering.com/spoo...35-spline.html

Which i can order in a 31 spline axle set, and 31 spline wavetrac diff unti, if i went with this would i need in specificy the setup kit that comes with a 31 spline pinion and yoke 3.062" OD, and pinion support 3.062" OD Or am i missing anything else? Am i even close


Is Daytona a reputable manufacturer of these parts or do you have a suggested manufacturer i could look into for the support ?
Are the wavetrac unit lockers even in the same ball park as Auburn, Eaton, and Detroit ?
I was personally looking at Detroit TruTrac differentials but don't know if the wavetrac is a viable substitute?..

Don't want something thats going to preemptively fail after xxx amount of use and dont want to have it be the diff especially that ***** on me, anyone with experience or knowledge please chime in on this!











Where i stand now is confirming if the axle housing is applicable(welded on or if its not), and if it isn't welded, what axle/spool/pinion/yoke/support to get into and how to match them so i know they'll all work together including with my stock 91 rs Drive shaft (should this be upgraded as well..?),

is it just all 31 spline, 3.062" OD, parts i need? don't know what the mated setup kit is if i were to get a 31 spline axle set, and im sure as hell not spending the 1500$ on mosers ultimate http://www.moserengineering.com/asse...ac-9-ford.html

Is everything in that kit what i need though?
If so where can i find some mated setup kits with pinion and supports?

So many questions i apologize.. i know no one probably wants to read this crap after a long day of work/wrenching/play but it means the world to me even for just a response with a few carefully compiled sentences.


Typed enough here, ill Get the pictures up when i get home.
Thanks for the response


P.S. Are these the Seals you were talking about Big Gear ?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tm...-150/year/1979

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tm...-150/year/1979

P.P.S. Is this the Conversion U-joint i need to connect my drive shaft correctly to the ford rear end?
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...1350-Rear.html

big gear head

The brakes must have the correct bolt pattern on the caliper brackets to bolt to this housing. If these brackets are for a GM rear end then they will not work on the 9 inch Ford with the old style big bearing housing ends, which is what you have. Also, GM uses a 2 3/4 inch hang out on the axles and Ford uses 2 1/2 inches. If the brakes are made for GM then the calipers will not line up with the rotors.

The axle package that you were looking at has a spool. You do not want a spool. The Wavetrac is a great differential, but about twice as much money as the others. I don't think the Elocker is available for the 9inch. The Truetrac would be a good choice. A Detroit Locker works great, but it pops and jerks on the street and might get on your nerves.

Daytona is no the brand name of the pinion housing, it is the style of pinion housing. Ford created the Daytona pinion housing back in the early '60s to fix a pinion bearing problem in their race cars. The Daytona has a larger inner bearing and uses a solid spacer instead of a crush spacer. They were originally all cast iron, but they have been available in aluminum for many years now.

I didn't understand what you meant by welded diferential. I thought that you were talking about the actual differential, not the housing. The housing must be welded. Some people weld the gears together inside the differential to make it solid so that both wheels turn. This is not a good idea for anything except a dirt track car.

Nope, those axle seals are for the front of a 4X4. You need rear axle seals.

All of the after market 9 inch Ford yokes are the short truck style. This usually makes the drive shaft too short. The longer car yoke makes the drive shaft about the right length, but they are only available used, and not in a 1350.

AlkyIROC

As mentioned above, I see no listing for axles or carrier. The "28 spline" you originally mentioned is the spline count for the pinion itself which is standard size.

Gm cars do not use 1310 u-joints. They use what's called a 3R. A conversion u-joint is available but usually hard to find. Get a custom made driveshaft with 1350 yokes on it. You'll also need a 1350 slip yoke for the transmission.

The 3.062" case is the minimum you want to buy. 31 spline axles will fit with no problem and you can even upgrade to 33 spline axles. If you ever make enough power to need 35 spline axles, you'll need to use a special carrier to use the larger axles in the small case or upgrade to a 3.250" case.

The Daytona support is the bearing case for the pinion. The "Daytona" means it uses larger bearings for more strength.

This is what I use in my 9". Moser aluminum bolt through 3.062" case. Aluminum Daytona support. Aluminum spool. I can lift the center section into the diff with one hand.

Justin93

Here are some Pictures of my 9", im pretty sure its not a 'welded diff'.
i also have the Nodular Iron casing in one of the corners of the pictures.

Decided on which Aftermarket cases- Nodular iron or aluminum.

Aluminum cases obviously have a weight savings vs iron with the trade off of increased cost. Some say they are not as good for street cars- something about when they heat up, the aluminum expands more and can affect the gear mesh, would you say you've experienced this AlkyIROC? Its not that im to concerned with the weight of the carrier as much as the longetivity and would prefer to avoid having to go through all the trouble if the aluminum (or nodular iron) was more prone to effecting the gear mesh or any real increase of risk of problematic areas in the future.

The Detroit locker sounds like it operates loudly throughout the drive train and definetly would get on my nerves, fast.
Im looking for a smooth ride and differentials are definetly not my strong point of knowledge..
Am i mistakened or is the Truetrac one of Eatons Detroit model Differentials?
And is there any differentials that perform optimally without any noises/bangs ? If so what are some that operate efficiently and quietly?

anyone have experiences with the Wavetrac? Im sure i can contact a third party Moser authorizer as they will generally beat there price (brutespeed has great prices on moser packages, might be harder to find axle packages)

Im looking for a simple yet efficient differential with the least chances of needed maintenance or experiencing problematic occurences such as noises and bangs coming from the rear.. not saying the noises are a problem with the locker simply not the style of driving im looking for with this build
and if there is such a difference between the Spool - locker - differential which is my best suited type of Diff? and If possible Combination of Diff and Carrier? All Aluminum ? or is the Nodular Iron carrier a keeper and just look into aluminum support 31 spline and get a 1350 -1350 custom drive shaft from IEDLS.COM
?
Any discrepancies between a 31 or 33 spline ? would it be ok to just stick with a 31 or if i can find a 33 spline package for the same as a 31, at least to how its been explained, would this be a wise idea if i were to build power down the road with my build (such as forced induction, all forged internals etc)

You guys are awesome and im still learning, i appreciate all the responses !

Ill have to post more replies to post the rest of my pictures as tgo only allows 3 at a time


Would it be better of to replace the whole drive shaft that has the correct length to the third member rather then getting the 3R - 1350 pinion/yoke ? I want to do it right if im going to do it all and im unsure if there are any performance/longetivity differences if i were to get a new shaft, or simply get the correct 3R pinion/yoke to 1350 and call it a day.

big gear head

Nice looking stuff that you have there. Be sure that you don't use the fill plug on the back of the housing for your full level. Use the plug in the case for that. If you use the one in the housing for the fill level then the rera end will have way too much oil in it.

The nodular case that you have has larger bearing cap bolts than the stock Ford case, so the torque on the bolts will be higher. You might want to contact Moser for the torque spec on those bolts. I have it written down somewhere, but I don't have it here with me.

The Truetrac is made by Eaton. It is probably your best choice. Get it with 31 splines and get axles to match. You can't get a differential for 33 spline axles. All that is available in 33 splines is a spool, and you do not want that. The Wavetrac is a great differential, but way overkill for what you are building, and very expensive.

Keep the nodular case that you have now. It's the best that you can get for what you are building.

Don't look into the 31 spline gears any more. They are all pro gears, which are softer than street gears and will not hold up to street use. The 28 spline gears are plenty good for what you want and will last much longer on the street with much less problems. Use the Daytona pinion housing that you have now. It wil work great.

IEDLS can make you a great drive shaft with 1350 u joints on both ends. You need to get the rear end in the car, along with the engine and transmission so that you can make accurate measurements to give them before they make the new drive shaft. Have the rear end in the car with everything adjusted correctly and the weight of the car on the rear end.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Weird...I have a Detroit True Trac in my Moser 9". Could be Eaton makes it and Detroit sells it under their name? You listed a torque arm mount from Currie....Moser will set up a mount for you if you mention it's going on a Thirdgen.

I had no option of GM brakes when I used the big Ford ends....they offered 11" Explorer drum kits or Ford disc brake setup..

Justin93

I couldn't find the invoice but from what i remember on the receipt it said
'' FORD BIG PRO BRKG KIT DISC BRAKE PBR 2PISTON CBR" which he ordered through Spohn's website. potentially could be the economy disc brake setup as well.

Something along those lines, i included some pictures if you could help identify compatibility that would be great!
and i have another 5-6 pictures of hardware just to make sure its all there if necessary ill post !
i have 4 piston in the front on 11" rotor and this is a rear setup for 2 piston with a 13" rotor vented and slotted
Im currently experiencing squeaking at high pressures of brake load with my front 4 pistons, ive heard this is common with crossed/drilled slotted rotors but is there any maintenance i can do to the braking system or rotor itself to help prevent the squeeking?)

Justin93

Yeah i was doing some online research and saw that the Detroit model is an Eaton Manufactured Differential ? If someone else can chime in don't want to say something if its untrue.

How do you like your diff Confuzed1? does it make noises or any bangs ?

Yeah i've misplaced my manilla folder with all my receipts and i will be finding them hopefully soon! when i do ill post the brake kit to further see if they will fit on my third gen.

i do have some parts which i don't know what they are, Shame on me i know
Here are the pictures of what i can't identify
in the first picture if anyone can tell what the thick heavy iron cast looking part next to the tunnel trans mount is and what its for that would be great, i've been on that one.

The second picture i have no idea what is or what for..

If anyone can identify which transmission the mount is for too that would help, but i understand this may be impossible to confirm over a small picture and text characters, if there are any cereal numbers or measurements i can take of it let me know if possible, i would like to get the one for my t-5 B&W if it just magically happens to be that mount i guess i lucked out but wont know until i know how to decipher which transmission its for.

Also appreciate the about Moser Confuzed! i will definetly be calling them as opposed to gritting my teeth for buying that bracket from strange!

big gear head

I need to see pictures of the caliper brackets to see if they will work on the old style big bearing Ford ends. Pictures of the calipers don't help.

The part in the second picture is a fixture for holding the 9 inch Ford case while you assemlbe it. It is made to bolt to the top of a work bench and then the case bolts to the arm. It's a very nice tool to have. It allows you to rotate the case while you assemlbe everything.

Eaton bought out Trac Tech several years ago. Trac Tech made the Detroit Locker and Truetrac, so now they are made by Eaton. The Truetrac is one of the smoothest differentials that you can get, and very low maintanance.

Justin93

Thats a buttload of need-to-knows appreciate it alot Big Gear Head!

Are you referring to the plug at the BOTTOM underside of the rear end housing ?
Definetly want to confirm that before i say i understand it.

Ill look into The torque specs of them probably while im on the line calling in regards to the torque arm mount

"The Truetrac is made by Eaton. It is probably your best choice. Get it with 31 splines and get axles to match."
So even if i keep the 28 spline daytona pinion support, it would work together with the 31 spline axles and Differential ?

Or would it be a 28 Spline Truetrac and axles i need to get to work with the 28 Daytona Support ? (If they make them in 28spline?)

Also at this point i think i can sell this part, because i need either a 3R - 1350 or a (which i love the thought of) new driveshaft thats 1350 to the transmission and rear. i wouldnt need the pinion and yoke to measure how much im off with the trans/eng in and the weight on the rear end or do take the measurements without the pinion yoke provided ? Let me know if im wrong too on this call please!
PART # PY200
9" FORD PINION YOKE/ 1350 SERIES 28 SPLINE
http://www.moserengineering.com/9-fo...ne-pinion.html and fund that towards the driveshaft

Justin93

Ok, im not quite sure which ones are the brackets or if it even came with the package, but if included in the pictures let me know if you could identify them!


That fixture sounds like its going to make the installation of all these parts into the rear end alot smoother, the set also came with a racing bearing driver installation kit too

Ill look into the Truetrac Eaton, im still unsure though if its ok to run the 31 spline axles with the 28 spline daytona support as you suggested? If you can clarify that for me too that would be great!

"As mentioned above, I see no listing for axles or carrier. The "28 spline" you originally mentioned is the spline count for the pinion itself which is standard size." Is that just the Standard Support spline that is used on all 9"s ?
Or is there a mated spline i must get for the 31 (or 28? still confused) Spline axles and TrueTrac Diff.
Don't mean to mix up what Iroc said, i just thought thats what he might be referring to in his post.

big gear head

The pinion housing is for a 28 spline pinion gear. It has nothing to do with the axles. The 31 spline pinion gears that you have been looking at are for drag racing only and should not be used on a street car. Stick with what you have.

The Truetrac should be ordered for 31 spline axles. Aslo get a set of 31 spline axles from Moser while you are at it. This has nothing to do with the pinion housing or the 28 spline pinion gear.

I didn't see any caliper brackets in the pictures. You may need to get another brake kit and sell the parts that you have. It's probably going to be more trouble to try to piece together all of the parts that you need for what you have.

Ford never used a 3R u joint on anything that they made. They did use 1310 and 1330 u joints on the 9 inch Ford, so you could get a yoke for one of those. This still isn't going to match your drive shaft. The rear end must be completely assembled (with the yoke installed) and in the car at ride height before measuring for the new drive shaft.

I was just looking at the invoice that you listed in your first post. It says that you have the 7800 big bearing Ford ends with 1/2 inch holes, but the T bolts are 3/8. I don't understand why they would order 3/8 bolts for 1/2 inch holes. You need a set of 1/2 inch T bolts for these housing ends.

Justin93

Alright gotcha, ill keep the Daytona 28 Pinion Support and the Pinion/yoke so i can install it all together and when its sitting in the car along with the engine and transmission ill call IEDLS and ask/give whatever measurements they may need.

Ill look into, and soon post a 31 Spline+Diff Axle package or the links of my findings.
And just to confirm, My Moser Ring and pinion Gears should be 28 Spline to correct?(which they are) ill include a link rather than picture this time.
Also if the stamp on the ring and pinion signifies anything.. its stamped 595
http://shop.brutespeed.com/Moser-09F...ser-09F350.htm

Ill look into some brake set up kits, i Have Baer fronts so it would be ideal to match, if anyone can have suggestions for a nice handling setup with my 4 piston in the front that would help me alot as i have limited experience with these brake systems.

And gotcha ill look into those 1/2 T Bolts from Moser.


Is this the differential your suggesting Big Gear Head?
http://www.moserengineering.com/diff...e-913a586.html

http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-3...31-spline.aspx - This one comes out to $477.50 with ground shipping.

Or i can get it for 499$ At summit with a 40$ summit certificate and Free shipping.
This would be a difference of $21.50 with Drivetrain America's being cheaper (didn't calculate after tax) and you would still have $18.50 in savings if you went with Summits Order
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dtl-913a586/overview/ as oppose to Drive trains website.
I guess its just up to the customer at that point, but an extra $18.50 Can Go some ways for missing hardware.

Is this the axle set i should be looking for? Just so i can confirm part numbers to further comparitve price window shop..
Does anyone know the direct fit shaft size or if this is the Axle shaft i should be looking for? And the differential should be for the 9" not the 8.8" Correct ? Probably a Silly question just need clarification!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ms...must/overview/

Got a little confused when they put *CUSTOM axles.. is this pair no different from the pair from summit?
http://www.moserengineering.com/cust...ine-axles.html

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Geez, I didn't realize you already have the Currie TQ arm mount. It looks pretty neat though!

I must have gotten my rear right when the True Trac changed over to Eaton. The box I had said Detroit...which is why I thought it was weird. When I first installed the rear, I noticed that if I made a sharp left turn while accelerating with some power behind it...one of the rear tires would tend to squeal a little bit.

But I'm assuming it was just tight since it was pretty new, because it doesn't do that any more and it's smooth...it's been great for 5 years so far. I got the nodular case, 31 spline Moser axles, Detroit Tru Trac and 11" explorer drums ( I know.... I should have got disks).

That being said, the 11" drums stop the car way better than the stock 10 bolt rear drums it came with!! I've yet to experience any brake fade with them, but I've yet to try and slow it down after the 1/4 mile....

I'm pulling right around 495 ft lbs and 395 HP to the rear wheels on DR's, and it doesn't flinch...you'll love it!

big gear head

Those T bolts in the second picture are 1/2 inch, which is what you need. If you have 8 of them then you are good. The bolts in the middle of the third picture are the bolts that hold the chunk in the housing. There should be 10 of them, along with nuts and washers. The bolts on the right look like the ring gear bolts. The two large nuts are pinion nuts. I don't know why you have two of them. The rest of the bolts must go to the brakes and torque arm.

Justin93

I think there are only 4 Bolts in the 1/2 T bolts ill double check when i get back from work.

there are 10 Center Section bolts

i had no idea what the 4 bolts on the right were
Is Loc-tite or any solvent/addidtive necessary prior to installing any of these bolts ?

How many Pinion nuts should i have?.. and are they in usable condition ? They just look a little worn.

im going to put all of them in labeled bags when i get home and whatever's left over in hardware ill take a picture of for further clarification.

As for the torque arm mount, is there any distinguishable number or measurement of the mount to see if its the correct one for my transmission ?
sorry for asking twice just not sure if its for my setup and also if anyone can chime in and confirm what this part in the picture may be ?

all of this is vital to the build as i am only 20 years old, and my knowledge falls short of where i could confidently tackle it on myself, Couldn't Show my gratitude enough nor do it without your sharing of knowledge

big gear head

The part in that picture is the fixture for holding the center chunk for assembly. This is what I was talking about in post number 12.

If there are only 4 of those bolts then they are probably not the ring gear bolts. It's hard to tell what some of that stuff is in the pictures.

If the pinion nuts look used then don't use them again except for trial assemblies. Don't use a new nut for trial assemblies. Save the new nut for the final assembly.

Justin93

Yeah im looking at the TruTracs and im highly considering, Just trying to see if there are any hidden warranties and all those goodies, is this the model you have http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dtl-913a586/overview/

and for your axles
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ms...must/overview/
? Im looking to put in what you already have in your drivetrain, if you have time and can confirm whether those are the same parts or not that would help me being that much closer to getting everything i need rounded up and purchased!

The Rear brake kits are so expensive though! Just because i have them on my front end doesn't mean they weren't cheap! But damnit! The stopping power can be the difference between being 10 feet behind a mini van and 10-15 feet inside of the van and i definetly focused on safety/steering/handling before i invested money into the drive train, didn't want to have some jerk off cut me off and see my rs meshed with another automobile,
I still have my stock drums in the rear though, Did our third gens come stock with 11" Drums in the back ? or did you size up/down ?

All the money i invest into power adders also have to compensate for safety and consistency components in the car, i couldn't tell you enough scenarios when those brakes have saved me from running red lights, to diving into the freeway shoulder lane because some *** hat cuts me off without even a blinker or looking over there shoulder.
Similar to that

Im sure the explorers are plenty of braking power though for your setup right ?
Seems very close to what my engine is intended to be making and to put to the rear wheels thats very nicely done

Would you even consider at this point getting a new brake kit? Sounds like they hold out very nicely for what your putting out and your drive-drive basis.

And if you dont mind would you disclose roughly how much the explorer brake kit cost? just trying to feud out the costs of some parts to make sure it stays in my budget.
Im going to finish the build, but there's always going to be the next project

Justin93

OH, Makes alot more sense i thought you might of been referring to just the one part next to the torque/trans mount.

and Thats why i ask questions, i would of just used the same bolt and never had a second thought
Ill be getting new Pinion bolts ready for the final install then, and prop the hardware to be clearly identified and with better pictures/resolution just to confirm what i can and CANNOT re-use, and those parts i still havent been able to identify and where they go.

With my setup Big Gear, Would you suggest sticking with the Pro Street 3.50 28 spline gears? Apparently they will work with the 31 spline axle and Truetrac Diff from what i've been reasarching, however i know there is more then just throwing a set of gears in your rear end, how would i be able to justify what ratio would best suit my build? I've briefly skimmed threads that claim it having to do with the power band of your engine but have still no knowledge of any formula or form of hypothesising what actually would be ideal for my build.

My old friend who used to work at a machine shop suggested 4.11 gears... then again he also suggested a Posi Traction Differential and several other questionable suggestions for a daily driver car.. Dont know how the gearing would effect the efficiency and output of the power to the rear wheels But obviously i would love to have it at full optimization of my torque/hp/power band.
Anyone that can lay any of there would be great, im very very uninformed of this part of the rear end build, and could use some enlightening

big gear head

http://www.ringpinion.com/Calculators/Calc_RPM.aspx
This might be helpful for finding your cruising RPMs at highway speeds. If the 3.50 fits your needs with the tires and transmission that you have then use it. A 3.70 is probably as far as you would want to go with a street car. I don't recall what your engine combination is, and I'm not an expert at matching gear ratios to engine applications. I've got 31 years of experience building rear ends, but I usually leave the gear ratio choice to the customer.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

As far as setup and particulars, you're talking to the right person....and it ain't me!! Lol....I mean Big Gear's your man.

I purchased my carrier fully assembled by Moser because I didn't want to deal with setting lash or the like. I basically received a housing, third member in a plastic case, two axles and a brake kit all in separate boxes and all from Moser.

As I recall, the Explorer rear drum kit came with the backing plates, wheel cylinders, drums and hardware (springs etc) in a kit. There was a significant difference in price between getting those or the rear disc kit. I "think" the drum kit ran around 300 bucks added to the cost of everything....the disc kit was over double that.

I was told that there were no stock 3rd Gen brakes that would adapt to the big Ford bearing ends....or at least they didn't carry anything like that. Since my '83 had drums on the rear stock, I didn't feel like it was a huge deal to just go with the Ford drums...no issues with needing changing pro portioning valve etc...

And the Explorer drums ARE significantly bigger than the stock drums that came with the car.

But...a nice big set of rear discs will always give you better stopping power, and look a bunch better with aftermarket wheels..."win-win".....

I opted for the 3.70 rear gears, which work real well with the 5 speed I had built with the .59 ratio 5th gear. I'm only revving around 2100-2200 at 70 mph....still sucks gas though..

I added the blower later on, and with the torque it adds, I should've gone with 3.50's in the rear since I don't even use 1st gear half the time to get the car rolling...I start off in 2nd...but that's what happens when you don't have a plan on where your going to end up with a car when you start building and modding...

abray1

Look at the torque arm and suspension parts from autoweldchassis.com If you are going to have to purchase some parts to complete your project you cant beat what those guys make.

Justin93

I had this Transmission and Engine setup (which im intending to swap in my 91) and that was the same situation i was in!
Whenever i was already rolling, I never used 1st. And When i did it would be at a full stop.
Not to mention when i was at a stop i could LITERALLY feather the clutch out with what seemed to be (and ive done before) no gas into 1st gear.
I didn't know if this was a positive or negative thing however there was never any grinding of gears, the Transmission wasn't jerking, and the engine wasn't starving for gas.
It was initially carbed with the stock 4bl, edelbrock aluminum intake(ported) and ported iron cast heads 1.94 i believe and cant remember the combustion rating but it ran off unleaded pump gas

Now before i get off topic let me inquire about the link Big gear gave me.
http://www.ringpinion.com/Calculators/Calc_RPM.aspx

It asks about my RPM Ratio ?
Is there a way to find this out or a formula ?

Then how do i know what to input for my Speed?

when i was driving with engine and trans (stock 84 z28 Gears, rear axle)
My camaro liked to reach 1700-1900 in 1st anything past was just a waste or it would spin the tires.
2nd had the best of both worlds HP/Torque and would be suitable driving up to 2800RPM's to merging onto the freeway.
Then switching into 3rd gear i would reach up to about 3200 RPM's with Suitable torque but i could tell it traded a little off for more HP - Acceleration.
3rd to 4th Gear was mostly crusing speeds and was never a very HARD gear. In fact, i used the 4th more then the 5th (OD) on the freeway, it had a good amount of pickup in it even in the lower rpm band. i never exceeded 3100-3300 RPM and i never took the engine over 3500 RPM, For a Fact.
The 5th gear was almost untouched as it would seem as if it would stall out on the freeway, it lobed(ran/chugged) very rough when i was in 5th and wouldn't have much pickup at all.

Its a freshly honed and bored (.060 over) pre-86 block no more then 2k miles on the rebuild, i had a machine shop owner check it out at his shop to give me the word if it was suitable to build up, he suggested sticking with everything already in it, no aluminum heads, crazy crank shaft which he claimed mine would of most indefinetly been machined to specs to what the prior builder put into the block. putting in new gaskets, cleaning out the heads (seemed like it was running on low antifreeze) and not his parts and service, just advice and clarification that it would be suitable to build up.

He told me the specs of all the internals in the car such as but not limited to Its mild-Truck cam in the engine which he claimed to be a Pro comp XH28E Something like that, cant recall at the top of my head. it was one of the 2 only combinations i could of went with but both would clear emissions.
The iron cast heads were the ones that came with the pre-86 block i dont wanna just say a name but i believe it was the l98 ? Might be confusing those for a different corvette head, either way the block intake and exhaust all was ported to match flow, and thats what i intend to do when i build it back up.
If i were to convert from Carb to TBI, TPI, EDIS etc
The Heads Also had all the goodies with matched spring rates, Valve train, guide plates, 1.5 RR and everything. The Machinists suggested if i enjoyed how it drove to just put it back together with new gaskets, NON-torque yield bolts (prior builder put in torque yield)
But since i have it out already, i want to build it to its full optimal potential.
ill be going this saturday to pick his brain and thoughts about what possibilities i may have while maintaining a clean-emission, unleaded gas running, daily driven car.
I will be putting a list of All engine components so i can neatly organize everything integrated with the block.

Now the Transmission.. well if there was a way i can identify how/if it was built up, or what parts might of been put into it, that might better direct me to what this setup would perform optimal. But i dont have this knowledge.
Im very uneducated in this drive train department and am still learning as i go. With that being said let me explain how the car drove to try to stir up an idea.

It got up to about 2700-2900 RPM @ 70 MPH On the freeway in 3rd and it would skip the tires all the way shifting up from 1st to 4th gear
(1st Shifting to 2nd, 2nd shifting to 3rd was the most significant, and 3rd to 4th generally this was above 50MPH when the tires would skip, on free way, street, even incline.)
This was in my 84 z28 with stock gearing.

I dont know how valuable this information might be but seeing as i dont know much about my transmission and its internal assembly, the best i can do is elaborate the performance.


It's harder for me to understand what wheel set i can use as when i put the rear end in, im unsure if my offset, wheel depth, and height capabilities will be impacted by this does anyone know the limitations of tire/wheel selection after a ford 9" has been installed in there 3rd gen?

I have Koni adj. Yellows all the way around on eibach sportline springs whatever that information may be of value.. im just stuck on this website with none of these value boxes filled or marked due to future possible limitations of tire size. I sampled the stock 16" Wheel set, and the Stockers Came out with the Tire Height Number of 25.65 so im just going with that until i can have a set of links with the rims ill be using, and the tire aspect, ratio and size ill be using. When i final that i will input values into calculator again to see the difference this was with the rear wheel specs being 245/50/R16


Definetly dont want anything over 18" Rims, im trying to stay away from staggered as i heard its unproportional and vehicles run better with the same wheel size/tire all the way around
im sure there are some experienced members that can chime in here inform us of the wheelsets and limitations we can put on our third gens and those that are best suited for street/performance/daily driven

I really dont wan't to throw this thread off track, i would just prefer to get the info to input into the Gearing Calculator so i can complete the rear end build before i over-think the wheel set and size.

I've seen some 5x4.5 15x10 Cragars and several other rims, im simply going for Light-weight, then Z rated Tires. I was not going to cheap out on the wheel set because i have to much suspension investments underneath it, i know i wont see a chunk of those performance/handling gains without a set of good tires and wheels.

I know im probably killing you guys on reading but this has been where i've been stuck since Big Gears last post and it put me in an understanding perspective that i need to know EXACTLY my intentions, plans and capabilities with what im putting into this vehicle before i could BEST evaluate and mate what components would operate best with each other.
You wrote it very well Confuzed, I have to have the plans already formed for the cars life before i decide to keep stacking mods onto it, that being said no more

The pictures are a before (1st pic) then After (2nd and 3rd) after i cleaned out the heads with a 1800 psi pressure washer, suggested from the machinist at victory motors rather than have him do the same thing for 60$ in his High pressured hot water virtual washer.


I will be doing my research as tire and wheels were what initially intended to put in after my rear end, engine, trans, even new interior.
This thought has changed and i will finalize the wheel specs for the input value chart.

if there are any suggestions/links/advice to figuring out whats been put into my transmission
please feel free to share, as well as tire width/height limitations without having to cut/fab my rear end.
i will roll my fenders out if i have to for a nice meaty rear tire with tred. however any other modification i want to stay away from such as use of spacers which i dont know is possible? but i would prefer to have the wheels fit flush without them.

Apologize for all the but i wanted to share all the experience ive had with the donor engine and transmission to better share how it performed in hopes to be able to get someones on what my homework should be.

Thanks again Big Gear Head for the link and sharing of experience, and Thank you to both for all the

Enough talking, Now its time for me to !

Justin93

Wow they have some incredible prices.

I might inquire and talk to them over the phone about there 31 spline axles Part #1211
However, i couldn't find anywhere on there website for a torque arm for my axle. They have some quality production though, thanks for the link abray1.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Far be it from me to point out the obvious, but do you really want to deal with all of the expense, driveline losses, unsprung weight, and all of the headaches of putting together this 9" rear when your factory rear is more than up to the task? Your original thread said that you're putting in a mild 350 backed by a T5. There is no way you're going to overpower your rear end as long as you've got a T5 in the driveline.

Justin93

I would of gone with a 12 bolt had i known in advance, however im intending to keep this car for my lifetime, and later on the road for my children to enjoy as well. Im intending to go through every minor part of the vehicle so i thought it would be a good idea to completely build up a rear end with disc brakes and a good reputation of the 9" being plenty of strength for even 700HP Builds, Yes you can say i have a mild 350 at the moment, however it is being built up to push the limits with what i can pass for emissions as well that being said this car wont be reaching anything close to 7 ponies and i don't seeing this rear end having and trouble putting out whatever the Power Train can dish out. Even if it will be secluded to a Low HP Medium Tq Output, i dont know at this time but the engine had some serious ***** in my 84' needless to say its going to be upgraded as much as possible, and budget is of no real matter. I am not cheaping out or going to buy a crate motor, the drive train was from my first camaro (84) and would like to keep that and upgrade the rear/shaft/diff/axles/brakes and enjoy the beast. I was looking into T56 but the sentimental value of it will decrease and it will be just another Gear and being unfamiliar with whatever may already have been done to that Trans. I don't want to come up on some junk that needs more work then its function worth.

That Being said..

As far as unsprung weight and such i would LOVE to hear about this Jim because i just did all this suspension work currently and am unaware of the differences (other than the 9" being heavier) of the unsprung weight, and if you can identify/elaborate on some 'driveline losses' i just might experience if i did swap. please share your of how it would Positively and Negatively effect the Drive train/ unsprung weight if you could..

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Seems that throwing out any opinions as to whether he's wasting his time building a rear he'll most likely never out power is kind of a moot point since he has it already.

The 9" rear is quite a bit heavier and physically bigger than any 10 bolt rear...and it's weight added to the driveline below the springs, thus the "unsprung weight" comment. A heavy set of aftermarket wheels add unsprung weight etc..

There's magazine articles about how the 9" rear, due to it's pinion setup uses more power to turn it then say, a 12 bolt or 10 bolt rear. There's also articles that say that theory is a bunch of BS and after dyno testing the power loss is found to be so little it doesn't matter. There's an article out there to back you up depending on what side of the fence you'd like to be on.

The weak points and power handling capability of the T5 trans has been debated 20 different ways...some members have a lot of experience blowing them up, stripping gear sets and the like. They're typically the most vocal on the threads about the drawbacks of owning one. Feel free to search and you'll find literally TONS of threads about them. Most end up saying get a T56, Tremec TKO or something along those lines.

I think you're doing fine....carry on....

EDIT: The above is not meant to be a bash to Jim at all..to the contrary, Jim is a wealth of knowledge on this board...

If he didn't say it, someone else would have....I look at it this way...you'll have plenty of room for power upgrades with the 9" rear! lol

Justin93

Updates..Bump

So i clarified all this information and thread to my Speed shop Uncle in law who owns a shop in el cajon san diego (D&M Automotive) and 2 shops in Idaho.
He's built everything within his 33 years of experience with stock cars, Fabricated chassis vehicles, Rat rods, Classics to imports of all kinds.

He suggested that i sell my 9" as its not 'as suitable' as he claimed I PERSONALLY THOUGHT IT WAS.

He disclosed that it's going to be a bi*** and a half to get everything dialed in, he also suggested, before i told him, the 12 bolt axle with some good matching disc brakes, 3.54 gears, and limited slip of course.

Unfortunately this saddened me as i thought it was a great deal and i would be able to use it but its not suggested to at all.

With that said, i will be putting these up on tgo Local pickup preferred but i will ship if needed.

I guess now this thread would be Ford Moser 9" For sale :/

He also ended up saying i should put back my .060 over block sell it and buy a crate motor.

All new things that will be taking the sentimental value out but increasing longetivity of the vehicle overall.

I still want a beefier rear with disc brakes (if not i would like to purchase rear Baer brakes anyways)

Any suggestions in 12 bolts?..
I recall unsprung weight but can anyone else chime in and give me some need-to-knows if i want to swap my 10 bolt for a 12 bolt ?
Drive shaft mating..
Pinion Yoke mating..

Possible options to better suit my build?

I know it's been a long time but i was getting in contact with my uncle before blowing up this thread.

Thanks again to those who've helped me, your teachings will be carried on in my future use/knowledge.

Justin93

BUMP
UPDATE

NO LONGER USING THE .060" BLOCK OR T5

GETTING A CRATE MOTOR TURN KEY 300-450HP RANGE

T56 93-97 CAMARO.

Spoke to my uncle a little bit more, and that T5 would not hold up for very long.

Appreciate that input JIM85IROC


I am not cheaping out on my engine and not grabbing some rebuilt block(nothing wrong with that though)
Fresh crate motor - 383 ls1 whatever it maybe i want to push numbers and have availability to forced induction options.

(everything suspension has been overhauled except the original torque arm)

Also going for all forged internals with hopes of running some forced induction later down in the road after i take some classes.

HOWEVER...
I wanted this rear end to be able to withstand whatever it may be that i can toss at it.
my prior build options got tossed out as its not optimal or a choice at this point.

I'll be selling my .060" pre 86 freshly honed seasoned block and my T5 and i am going to buy a T56 and save the rest of the cash for the build.

My uncle also told me that i should sell my 9" and get a 12 bolt (prior to me telling him i was getting the T56)
It's not that easy to sell a 9'' in my area off craigslist, i know there very desirable but i already have the rear end brakes and pretty much everything to get it in..
If someone.. ANYONE that's successfully installed a 9" in there third gen are there any constant fixing or tweaking required to keep the rear end in line/maintained?.. anything different from what one with a 12 bolt might experience? PITA'S ??

Area's to note when trying to install the rear ?...
Any parts of the install that i might want to take a look at ahead of time?
Pre-emptive failures/tuning ?

Im left hanging at the moment as my uncles in idaho and its hard to get in direct contact with him, all your opinions and advice will be greatly appreciated.
Justin

big gear head

Putting the 9 inch in will be easier than installing the T56.

Justin93

Im sure putting in the T56 would go under a slightly different area of comparison... i understand what you mean but i do also know that the T56 is a bolt in application, spoken to a few members who claim its easier than dropping another automatic back in, other than cutting out the floor board (3-4hrs) they completed there swap in 13 Hours on a weekend with his shop tools in his driveway.

I was looking to compare the 12 bolt and 9" and similiarities, weakness and strengths in comparison from installation to maintenance and repair.
Thanks big gear head for the input im slightly more at ease that i might not have to sell all my powertrain parts in my garage

big gear head

I sold many Moser 12 bolt rear ends from 1997 to 2012, but I never had a 3rd gen Moser 12 bolt in my shop. I don't know anything about how they mount the torque arm, but I'm told that there were some problems. I also don't know anything about the Strange 12 bolt for the 3rd gen or if Mark Williams or DTS have one for the 3rd gen. The 9 inch that you have should be pretty easy to bolt in after you figure out what parts you need to finish the assembly and get it all together.

Justin93

I might just keep the 9".. as might as well if its roughly 50 lbs heavier than a 12 bolt. Im honestly not going to DIE being a few hundredths of a second off on the times i ACTUALLY DO take it on the track. I've also read the 9" takes 3.5 % power in this article http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/pr...-bolt-upgrade/

But honestly, i don't even want to go through that struggle with the 12 bolt. These 9"s are 'built ford tough' LOL so in that sense i think its just a personal decision.


If anyone has any links/need-to-knows they can provide some links of Baer 6 piston brake kits for the 9" rear.
I ask because theres an 8.8".. 8.5"... Not sure on the specifics and thats the only info i lack of.. you also mentioned larger ford bearing ends?.. can you elaborate on that?
So if i shouldn't bother looking up '91 camaro rear baer brake kit'
What should i look for ?.. just ford moser 9" baer brake kit ?

Also my 350 .060" over, i would NEVER use 1st unless at a dead stop, and to be honest - I never had to feather the gas with the clutch it always went right into gear no problem, no starvation of fuel/stall..

I always wondered why that was the way it operated, sure was easy to take off in that thing though

And Big gear head yeah thats where im at right now, im trying to compile all the parts i need to complete the rear swap, then i have bigger fishes to fry with the T56 and crate motor. Luckily i utilized all the tech articles for that swap from auto to manual, all the parts required even videos of people doing it. I sold some old parts to a guy with a 91 rs too with a 5.7 in it and the T56, he claimed 13 man hours, 3.5 in which were just cutting the clutch assembly to fit just right under the floor board.

As for the Drive shaft i will begin to work on after everything is in, after i get it in and the weight is on the rear ill take more accurate measurements and get a 1350 slip yoke for the transmission, as well as a 1350 - 1350 for the Custom made drive shaft. IS there any recommendations to the drive shaft such as steel/aluminum ? Any significant differences other than weight or is that about it ?

Thanks again guys i know my novels worth of questions and essays may be hard to bare at times, but I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH!
I'll try to be more direct to the point and short now

big gear head

In your first post the first item on your list is 7800 big Ford housing ends with 1/2 inch holes. This is what you need to know when ordering your brake kit. Camaro parts are not going ot work on this rear end. You need Ford brakes with the rotors drilled for the 5 on 4 3/4 inch GM bolt pattern axles.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

i have the big ford housing ends and used ed miller brackets to mount PBR brakes on the back sorry double checked I have the old ford housing NOT the big ford ones

Justin93

Thanks for the info on the brakes guys, much appreciated! i found someone who is interested in my current brakes that came with the axle setup and i plan on upgrading hopefully to a larger rotor and 6 piston brakes.

Here's the update:
So i wanted to know if the 9" install will make it an extra hurdle to swap in the new transmission and engine ?

Just trying to see if i do the rear end swap now will it make anymore trouble or expense then if i waited until i had the final motor+transmission then swap it all out together..

And lastly, will the maximum ride height (wheel set size+tire size) be affected by this swap?.. I wanted to get new rims and taller tires in the rear but i don't want to spend $$$ yet until i can at least know what to expect.

I know the rear axle will sit where the 10 bolt was, what i don't know is if my maximum allowed tire height and width will change from the stock 10 bolt.

If so i'd love to see some pictures of people with there 9" and wheel sets.

Lastly, Big gear head - https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...at-pinion.html

After reading this i'm still left a little unclear.. The stock steel drive shaft takes a 3R yoke.. But if i wanted to keep my stock driveshaft and get the appropriate conversion joint to match the original drive shaft to the 1350 yoke i already have for the 9".. can i use the 1350 yoke i currently have with a 1350 conversion joint for the Driveshaft ? If not, is there a conversion for that for proper fitment ?..

And if it's a safe alternative to buying a whole new drive shaft - meaning i'm not sacrificing reliability, longevity or safety with this route as opposed to buying a whole new driveshaft.

just weighing out the pros vs cons to see if its suitable for my application.

Thanks again for sticking with me on this thread guy's, i've learned alot but im still applying it, just need to confirm if this is an optional alternative to a new drive shaft and if its suitable.

Hope to hear from you guys soon, Thanks