Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Hey all, I picked up a later model transmission for my rebuild this winter and there are no numbers on it at all, they've been ground off the passenger side above the pan where they're supposed to be. I've posted some pictures, what all can you guys tell me about it?

Things I know. It's supposedly an 88, I know I will need to change out the speedometer sensor as this one is electronic and my car is an 84 which is not.

Does this have the mount for the torque arm? How do I rectify that if it doesn't? I've never had my transmission out or had any problems with it so I honestly haven't looked at it that close yet.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Its a non Fbody trans, may not have the better shift programing in it.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

I don't see a torque arm mount on it. It would be on the end of the tailshaft if it had one. I'd be worried if the parts numbers are ground off it as there's no easy way to identify it. It could be an older TH350 instead of the correct 700r4. It's got he right bell housing pattern for an SBC, so it should bolt right up. You should be able to swap the tailshaft housing from your current trans to get the torque arm mount, or you could get an aftermarket trans mount that has the torque arm mount on it.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I will probably end up transferring my old tail housing in this instance then.

What's the reference to the shift programming? Not sure what that means.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Tail shaft will swap, it's a 700r4, has MD8 on the case.

Shift programing i'm talking about is the springs in the valvebody/servo and even the governor springs and weights.
It could all be set up a lil softer for a pass car.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Assuming the casing is original, it's a truck 700-R4 with a mount behind the pan on the main case and the smooth tailhousing. Cars didn't get the smooth tail.

The governor will be set up to shift at lower rpm than a G92 F-body, the shift characteristics will be less aggressive and less firm. In short, it will be less fun.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

We'll see, I rarely hammer the car so it shifts at maximum rev's. I wasn't able to find an F-body 700R so I settled for a newer 88+ transmission so I got the second style valve body and all the goodies inside. I'll swap over my tail housing and I think I'll be ok with it.

ASE doc

A shift kit can address the shift programming and a valve body swap, maybe a couple of hard parts, servos, a few springs, and governor recalibration can make it anything you want it to be. You said you are rebuilding it? That would be the key since you don't know anything about the condition of the internals. If you get to know these units, you find that they're not that hard to work on and parts are everywhere and most of them are cheap. If you plan any upgrades, talk to Dana at Pro Built.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the info.

I ordered the Pro-street kit from Dana and have a Vigilante Converter coming from Precision Industries.

I know a guy who the car club here recommends for transmission work. While I like to do as much of my own work as possible, transmission internals are a bit daunting and I may take it to him to rebuild while I do the removal/instal.

ASE doc

I understand not wanting to dive into the rebuild. I'm just starting to get comfortable with the process myself. Had to go back in and redo part of my first rebuild because of mistakes I made when I was so sure that I had gotten it all right the first time. It takes time and practice to learn this stuff and a ton of patience to get through the learning process.

It is very rewarding though to drive the car and have the trans work so well having done the work yourself. Plus, it's one more part of the car that you've done with your own hands and that you can fix anytime there is an issue.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Very True!

When I remove my old transmission and install the new rebuilt one, I "may", buy a cheap rebuild kit and go through it for the experience. My wife will wonder "What are you doing! Just throw it away!". haha

I just hope that the mechanical internals, the planetary's, input drum etc are in good shape and don't need to be replaced on the new (used) transmission. I have no idea of it's runnign condition before, the guy I bought it from didn't know.

ASE doc

All of the hard parts are available in mass quantities and dirt cheap from any transmission hard parts recycler. In Portland OR we have Perfection Plus. I bet you could buy the entire geartrain for about $100 in excellent condition. I've been through their warehouse and looked through shelves stacked high with every part you would need to build an entire transmission.

As you study these units, you'll find that GM made several upgrades over the time they built them to make them stronger. ATSG is a good source for information on the changes. They detail some of the possible upgrades in their service manual.

Most all of the parts interchange from year to year. One exception to that rule may be the pre-87 units and the later 4L65E. I think though that even these cases are the same. It's just the valvebody, pump and greatrain that are different. The 4L65E, built to go behind the 6.0 LS motors, got really cool parts like 5 pinion planets, all roller thrust bearings, and a 13 vane pump. The 5 pinion planets most experts will tell you aren't necessary, atleast under 750hp, and the 10 vane pump may actually be better for high performance use but the roller thrust bearings sound cool.

EDIT: The main point, whatever you do, is to have fun and learn new stuff.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I've been looking at those 5 pinon planets but man they're expensive compared to the 4 poinion. I won't be going anywhere near 700hp. Even the motor build I"m looking at (400 block on my dads garage floor) will MAYBE hit 450-500hp.

Dana at Pro-built said that there is no need for a 13 vane pump if I'm not reving over 5500 regularly, which I don't.

ASE doc

Dana builds these transmissions to handle 750hp with 4 pinion planets. He says not to waste your money on the 5 pinion. I was only saying that they were used in the 4L65E, not that they're necessary. I wouldn't bother with a 13 vane pump either. I shift at 6,300 and have verified with a pressure gauge that the 10 vane pump has no trouble keeping up.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

That's good to know. I hadn't planned on buying a 13-vane pump since I rarely shift over 5000rpm. My Dyno chart falls off the table at 5300ish so I don't see a need to shift that high.

I'm looking at maybe buying some new planets and a front input drum "just in case" since I don't know the actual condition of the transmission. Should I preemptivly buy that stuff or hold off until I know for sure?

ASE doc

One change that GM made, the sort of upgrade I was referring to, is the number "7" 3-4 clutch apply ring. You'll read about it in the ATSG service manual that Dana sells. It is just a little shorter and, with the thinner pressure and apply plates, allows more 3-4 clutch capacity. Things like this are what I picked up on as I dug into my 700R4. The shorter apply ring cost me $12 from Perfection Plus. These kind of mods can be done for little $$ and help to beef up the unit.

ASE doc

I would hold off until you check the unit out. Dana will tell you how to inspect the parts for wear. I think the ATSG manual gets into that too. I have extra hard parts that I bought because I thight I might need them. Now they just collect dust. One part that I will always replace one any transmission with any kind of miles on it is the oil pump. I found a place locally that rebuilds them and does a very nice job. The rebuilt pump is $130. That's cheap for something as critical as it is. These guys also install the high rate slide spring so you don't have to mess with it. I put the Transgo steel rings in mine just for added security since I rev so high.

Another part that should always be replaced is the sun shell. Dana's kit will include that though I think. If not, they are about $70 or so for the Beast sun shell that's extra thick and has hardened splines.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Dana's kit does include the "Beast" sunshell. Sonnax sells a newer version of it called the "Smart" shell, apparently it distributes the load better or some such. I may look into the oil pump, is there any way to tell if that's good or not with the transmission tore apart or is it just something that you hope is good and replace as a preventative measure if you don't know?

ASE doc

The Smart Shell takes the load off of the captured bearing in the rear planet. Every expert I have spoken too says it's not necessary since that bearing never fails. The pump should be pulled apart in the rebuild for inspection. You check it for scoring on the face of the housing where the rotor runs. If the scoring is deep enough to catch your fingernail, the pump should be replaced. Talk to Dana about it for better information. I think he includes pump parts in his rebuild kit. I do like that the pump I bought came already clearanced so I didn't have to mess with it.

I will say that I just replaced a pump that had about 2,500 miles on it because the 3-4 clutches grenaded and sent friction material through the pump and tore it up pretty well. The pump, even with the face scored up, still made pretty decent pressure. I figured at the price, why mess with it. I just threw in a newly rebuilt one. The new one I got was also a better built unit than the one I replaced.

I have spoken to the guy who built the pump I just installed. That's a good feeling knowing who did it and that he knows his ****. It's like dealing with Dana on transmission parts, not some dip**** on a phone at a parts warehouse who doesn't know anything about transmissions. Ive been down that road.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I hear that on trusting who you talk to. I first talked to a shop that was recommended and then to a "guy" who members of my car-club say to go to. He really talks a good game and lots of guys say he's done work for them and is a quality builder. He's also about 1/3 the price of the shop! The only catch is I need to install and set up the transmission msyelf. I may take it to the shop to "set it up" if I can't figure out the TV cable et.al.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

So what is your opinion of the "Z-pack" vs the standard Borg Warner 3-4clutches?

Dana says there is zero difference, but offered the the Zpack if I wanted it. I didn't have a qualified enough answer so I picked borg warner. He hasn't sent it yet so I could still switch as no extra cost.

89rs454

he rebuilt his with **** in his garage.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Any mechanically minded guy could do it with the right tools and attention to detail

Personally I find a detailed guide like this better than watching a video
Maybe it is generation thing ?

http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=9464&forum=1
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=9557&forum=1
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=9611&forum=1
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=9658&forum=1
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=9779&forum=1

Floor guy

I know the guy that did that build up.

89rs454

I'm not worried about it's just showing that it can be done without special tools if you actually watch the video. M6/t56 for me i'm done with these shitty autos. Maybe it's a generation thing

ASE doc

Sorry for not getting back to this thread for a while. As for your question on the Z-pack, I defer to Dana on this. My experience with the Z-pack is that we installed a few sets of these back in the day and they seemed like a cool idea. 14 single sided clutches to increase total friction area. The problem I've heard with them since then is that they are so thin that they warp real easy under heat, which can happen pretty quick behind a 400hp+ motor with any kind of traction. It's the same issue as with the Alto red 9 thin clutch stack. They just don't handle high HP very well. The BW high energy clutches use a different material that absorbs alot more fluid. It's this fluid that dissipates heat and lets the clutches handle alot more power. I know that Dana sells the Z-pack but he still recommends the BW high energy material. I like the idea of using the high energy material with the thickest steels possible for the best heat dissipation and to help prevent warping.

I'm running the Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, you can look it up and you'll see it's a skookum piece with a zero flex bolt on backing plate in place of the OE snap ring retained plate. With the recommended accessories, it provides an extra .195 of 3-4 clutch capacity. I filled it with 8- .080 BW high energy frictions, 6- .080 steels and 1- .096 steel to set clearance. I went this way instead of the 9 stack with thinner steels. With 275psi apply pressure and Dana's shift kit, the shift into 3rd is so quick and with enough apply force that I don't expect to see any slippage with one less friction. I've seen too many 3-4 clutch failures and I'm determined to make this sucker last.

Dana will also tell you that a smaller 9.5" converter helps to reduce shift shock on the trans. Higher stall like 2,600+ (depending on your engine build) is also good. This gives the pump a chance to ramp up pressure before the full torque load of the motor is dumped on the clutches.

As far as technical information goes, it's all good. Read and watch as many videos as you can find. Search the net and you'll find lots of videos on youtube. Even if they seem dumb, they are all just information and may help you when you're neck deep in trans parts. Get your ATSG manual ahead of time and read it cover to cover, then have in your hand when you do the job.

The best teacher though is experience. If it takes you 4 tries to get it all together right, so be it. It's still better than throwing it together and missing something that will bite you later. I thought I had mine all right the first time and ended up finding mistakes when I went back in. Fortunately nothing fatal. It helps to do one section at at a time and keep your parts organized. Cleanliness is everything.

There are at least two special tools that you will want to have, aside from just a good selection of general tools. You will need something to compress clutch springs. You'll run into this right away on teardown. The worst one is the low/reverse clutch at the rear of the unit. With the unit on the bench, it's way down in the case. I used my press with some make shift crap to take it all apart but when I went to assemble it, I got myself a proper spring compressor cause it would be a pita otherwise. The one I bought is the KD tools #2398. I found it online for $98 and it does all the spring packs in the unit easily. Even with the Transgo high rev springs that are alot stiffer. Then, you want to have a tool for installing lip seals. Dana sells the wire loop style that works fine.

No matter how far you go with the build, as you research these things, you will find more cool things that you can do to make it stronger. I'm going back into mine to install a late design reaction shaft with a thrust bearing instead of the washer just because I like the idea so much better. I'm also going to put in all new updated bushings. It's just time, gaskets, and fluid, oh and money. I'm getting to be pretty good at D&R of this unit.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Wow, thanks for the awsome post!

I have already recieved my torque converter from Precision industries. I'm looking at around a 2600 stall and it is a 9.5" lockup converter.

I'm waiting on Dana's kit now, he sent it to me but some things were wrong, he actually contacte me and told me. So I need to contat him to get the replacements. That said, based on what you've said, I think I'm going to stick with the BW clutches. I'm also going with the beast sunshell as it comes with his rebuild kit and I won't worry about getting that smart-shell just yet. A few years from now when I do the 400 build for my car and will "magically" have issue with my transmission, i'll probalby go through it again then and get all the goodies i'm missing out on this time.

I think i've decided to have a shop do the work on this first one. When I have my old transmisison out and laying around, I may buy a cheapy rebuild kit and go though it that way for the experience then sell it locally or junk it.

ASE doc

I'll add to my comments on this post, I just ordered the Smart Shell from Sonnax. I also found a kit from Greater Dimensions Engineering that converts the front pump thrust washer to a torrington bearing. The kit reduces endplay in the reverse input drum to increase stability and strength of the geartrain.

End play of the reverse input drum and clearance where it engages the sun shell are pretty much overlooked by the OE and even by ATSG in their service information. The kit from GDE reduces endplay to .005" making the rev input drum and sun shell a more cohesive unit and reducing the chance of spreading the fingers on the sun shell that engage the rev input drum. The kit was also just $19. PATC wants $200+ for their custom machined reverse input drum with torrington so $19 is a bargain.

With these parts and what I already have on hand, I'll be able to completely delete all thrust washers from the unit in exchange for torrington roller bearings while also tightening up the end clearances. That will make the unit much more stable at high speeds and stronger too. This trans should be good now to run behind the 600+hp 377 that I have planned for its future.