3.8l 90° V6 - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

camaro_junkie · 08-12-2003, 07:28 PM

Not that I'm considering it, but this guy at work was telling me about the buick grand national turbo V6. Has anyone ever considered dropping one of those into a camaro? That would be awesome. That thing rips it better than a V8.

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Lee7 · 08-12-2003, 07:54 PM

id rather have it in a GN.

Project: 85 2.8 bird · 08-12-2003, 08:00 PM

I've seenpics of that swap. F-body will handle better than the buick

camaro123 · 08-12-2003, 08:27 PM

Hi, what frame mounts and motor mounts you used to drop in the buick v6 on the 3rd generation???? is some place to buy it???
I want to swap my 2.8 to a 3.8 v6 buick
X

camaro_junkie · 08-12-2003, 08:59 PM

So the swap's been done? How hard is it?

Dirty Rob · 08-12-2003, 09:13 PM

Id rather have it in one of these.......

Gumby · 08-12-2003, 09:21 PM

They put them 3.8 turbo's into everything you can think of. Not one car has been missed. Even some nice wagons.

But you wantto try and get an 86+ turbo as a stock one will do 12/13s with easy mods, where the pre 86 ones were a tad different and cost much more to get down that low.

V8Buick.com and the buickperformancegroup.com are good sites. You can find many happy turbo owner.

If I had the extra $35 I would be a member of the BPG.

Matt

Project: 85 2.8 bird · 08-12-2003, 09:23 PM

also try www.turbobuick.com

Gumby · 08-12-2003, 09:24 PM

little bit of stolen info.

"The basic motor(block and heads) are the same...It's the intake/turbo setup that makes the 86/7's more desireable...The 86/7's take less money to go faster and they are easier to work on(change plugs, etc)...

The 84/5's had a slightly smaller turbo, no intercooler, the turbo was mounted on top of the motor, which made for an exhaust pipe plumbing nightmare, and a horribly designed intake manifold...

Take a stock 86/7 GN/TR and about $500, and you can be running 12s...The 84/5's will be running about mid-high 13s for the same amount of mods...The same mods that work on the 86/7s will work on the 84/5s...But the 86/7s were about a full second faster on the quarter mile from the factory than the 84/5s...
"

"the 84/85's have a considerably lower resale value. I have seen real nice, low mileage 84/85's struggle to get $5 - $6k, whereas you could see two to three times that for an 86 or 87. There was a high mileage 85 in the Seattle area a little while ago and they couldn't even get $1,500 for it.
"

Matt

camaro123 · 08-12-2003, 09:28 PM

but, if I want to put in a non turbo buick 3.8, what mounts I have to use for the swap???
X still

camaro_junkie · 08-12-2003, 09:31 PM

When I have some money, I'm gonna get another V6 camaro and build up a GN turbo engine for her. I can only dream.

fly89gta · 08-12-2003, 09:32 PM

You can use the holes already drilled in your crossmember for the V6, they line up fine. As far as the motor mounts themselves I've heard of a few guys using GN mounts, though I know it makes the motor sit up higher. You can either find TTA ones(good luck) or buy the poly kit which is like $400(expensive but worth it). I was lucky enough to find an actual TTA motor.

The swap isn't that hard actually. Also ONLY get the 86-87 intercooled motor...the 85 and earlier motors were junk...

Some parts are getting hard to find as well. Also if you get a GN motor you can use the headers,crossover pipe but you'll have to get a custom downpipe made. Also, ditch the AC if you use the GN motor unless you switch to TTA heads, but then you'll also have to switch the pistons since they were different. As far as the trans goes, you have a few options..just say away from manual trannies(I'm gonna wait for the die hard manual tranny losers to come in and try to say why the car would be faster with a stick

)

Any other questions, just post them up here

camaro_junkie · 08-12-2003, 09:34 PM

I'm a die hard manual tranny guy, but I won't tell you it'll be faster. Instead, I'll just tell you that I'll have more fun than I would with an auto. (I don't race.)

fly89gta · 08-12-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by camaro_junkie
I'm a die hard manual tranny guy, but I won't tell you it'll be faster. Instead, I'll just tell you that I'll have more fun than I would with an auto. (I don't race.)

no you wouldn't have more fun because the car would be dog slow :sillylol:

fly89gta · 08-12-2003, 09:38 PM

Two pics of the motor..though it's back out for some....mods

fly89gta · 08-12-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee7
id rather have it in a GN.

The only thing a GN has over the fbody is a better rear(and that is at times questionable) and perhaps looks...(strictly up to ones opinion there)

The gbody's don't handle worth a damn either

Gumby · 08-12-2003, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by camaro123
but, if I want to put in a non turbo buick 3.8, what mounts I have to use for the swap???
X still

Why would you want a non turbo 3.8??? Too much trouble and you don't even get a turbo.

For all that work you could go 4.3 if you want more cub's and a non turbo car.

neve worry about mounts, they can be had or made so easy. worry about the pricy parts first.

Matt

Gumby · 08-12-2003, 09:56 PM

Doesn't the GN have the stock 4 link setup??? My 80 Buick has it. It does look better than our lca pan hard bar system and you could very easily have a real 4 link with some adjustable rods.

Matt

camaro_junkie · 08-12-2003, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fly89gta
no you wouldn't have more fun because the car would be dog slow :sillylol:

Look buddy, I don't know who you think you are, but you're not my mom, so you can't tell me how much fun I can have with my 5 speed. (lol)

edit: The GN is butt-ugly. No offence to those fans out there, but it's a boxy-sharp grandma lookin' car. Stick to the f-body. F-bodies are in my thoughts all day long.

Project: 85 2.8 bird · 08-12-2003, 11:13 PM

a grandma car that'l hand you your as s

I wonder what the diff betweenthe motor mount brackets are between the gGN 3.8 & the seriesII 3800?

camaro_junkie · 08-12-2003, 11:15 PM

Grandma's can be tough, they just drive ugly cars (most of the time).

Gumby · 08-12-2003, 11:23 PM

manual trannies are faster, the problem lies in the driver.

Why a well built auto with lot of trick hardware can smoke a stick in 1/4 mile. It does all the hard work for ya.

But a stick is more fun.

Matt

camaro_junkie · 08-12-2003, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gumby
But a stick is more fun.

Here here!

AGood2.8 · 08-12-2003, 11:50 PM

You guys have obviously never driven a car with a built auto.

Keep playing with your cars' big stickshift and keep pretending

camaro_junkie · 08-13-2003, 12:00 AM

Wow, this is a hot topic. I only just started this thread earlier tonight.

AGood2.8: Autos have there place too, but in a sports car of mine, there will always be a manual. We could go back and forth "arguing" which is better, but we might as well just agree to disagree. Granted I haven't driven a "built" auto, but I wouldn't expect it to thrill me personally.

Gumby · 08-13-2003, 12:20 AM

http://www.intense-racing.com/GTP/TurboGP.html

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gumby
manual trannies are faster, the problem lies in the driver.

go put a stick behind a LC2 motor and go shift it like it should..meaning go drive it like you stole it and come tell which is faster...while it has a lot to do with the driver it also has a lot to do with the motor...

Have fun trying to build boost at the line..have fun trying to keep boost while shifting

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gumby
http://www.intense-racing.com/GTP/TurboGP.html

:rockon: :rockon:

Gumby · 08-13-2003, 07:17 AM

Everyone agrees an auto can be faster but a stick can be more fun. espically if you are ona budget and $1500 in trick tranny work in not in the budget.

Now if we go unlimited budget and I put a 12 speed stick with 4 over drives, your auto may win the 1/4 mile but I would win the mile.

It all depends on what you consider fun. If I think jamming it into first at 90 is fun, how am I gonna do that in a auto. It just wont let me.

THey say you need load to build boost but the auto can only do about 3k rpm sitting still before the tires start smoking or the rear end walk around.

a stick should build better bost at the line as the rpms can be held at 6k if you want and WOT shift are no problem. Why lift???

a 6k WOT shift with 20 psi would be fun.

Matt

SSC · 08-13-2003, 01:22 PM

I dont agree! Auto may keep you more consistant at the track but faster, no. Post a month or so back some one here asked about an auto to 5 speed swap. I posted because I just did two, one in my bird and another in my brothers 3.4 95 camaro. My 700R4 was tricked out, transgo kit, moded accumulator 1/2 & 3/4, B&M upshift valve Vett servo & boost valve everthing besides new clutch packs were installed because they looked perfect. My 5 speed swap no comparision, much faster and acutually more consisant in the 1/4 but I do know how to shift and can shift it just as quick as an auto shifts. I freak people out how quick I shift but then Ive been shifting my coulmb shift 3 speed for quite a few years so a shifter on the floor is nothing.

My brothers swap turnned out much much better then expected.
His was a stock platform 4L60E which is much better then any 700R4 all components is good condition. Swaped his out for a 5 speed and no comparison at all. I can honestly say that 4L60 dogged the car big time, the tranny swap freed up soo much power its unreal, like someone dropped an LS1 under the hood, it really made that much difference in power,m granted it wouldent run with any LS1 but it really made that much more power.

Dident we go over the boost thing a couple hundered times in Doward's thread?

A NON turbo 3.8 isnt worth the hassle, it wouldent even be a fun project swap. Ive got a non turbo 3.8 sitting behind the shop from a wrecked car, If anyone wants to drive to CO they can have it for free. They suck that bad!

Gumby · 08-13-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SSC

A NON turbo 3.8 isnt worth the hassle, it wouldent even be a fun project swap. Ive got a non turbo 3.8 sitting behind the shop from a wrecked car, If anyone wants to drive to CO they can have it for free. They suck that bad!

Ditto. a non turbo 3.8 is one hefty pile of junk. Not even worth the trouble.

Matt

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 09:14 PM

lol and watch that 5-speed break when you powershift it lol

I'm not trying to be a dick but with the GN motor it's NOT good with a stick, PERIOD. Maybe on a L97 or something, fine...

SSC, yeah we did and guess what? he's(not naming names) is still wrong. Maybe you can build boost in park or neutral with some little import turbo(talon,eclipse etc) but you sure as hell aren't doing it with a REAL turbo...

Like I said...go do a stick conversion in a GN or a TTA and tell me what happens..it's been done..it blew..the car was slower..hell EVEN GM DID IT..and what were their findings? HMMM, I wonder

I'm waiting for someone to prove me wrong...ain't gonna happen...the car will be slower, PERIOD

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 09:15 PM

Let me recant my one statement. ANYTHING can be done with enough money...I'm sure one way or another a stick behind a GN motor would work ok...but at what cost?

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 09:17 PM

SSC, also..about your buddies swap..do you have track times to back up that the car is faster? Feeling faster and being faster are two totally different things

My buddies LB9/5-speed FELT A LOT faster than when I had the L98 in the GTA but in reality was over a full second slower...

camaro_junkie · 08-13-2003, 09:28 PM

Would a stock 5-speed handle the Buick GN engine if it was just everyday driving? I mean the GN engine is only a little more powerful than a Camaro V8 and the Camaro V8 came with a 5-speed. I'm not arguing anymore, but if I ever get the chance I will pop one of those babies into a Camaro V6 with a 5-speed, no matter the cost of building the tranny.

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by camaro_junkie
Would a stock 5-speed handle the Buick GN engine if it was just everyday driving? I mean the GN engine is only a little more powerful than a Camaro V8 and the Camaro V8 came with a 5-speed. I'm not arguing anymore, but if I ever get the chance I will pop one of those babies into a Camaro V6 with a 5-speed, no matter the cost of building the tranny.

not likely, number one you have to find out a way to bolt it up and the GN motor is a torque monster

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 09:32 PM

camaro_junkie, my email is down, I know I said I'd email you more info..I'll do it tomorrow unless the email comes back online in a few minutes..

camaro_junkie · 08-13-2003, 09:36 PM

Cool. So assuming one did get a 5-speed bolted up to this sweet mother of an engine, what would be the outcome of driving. Are we talking about complete and utter tranny failure, or a shortened life (like 3 or 4 years?).

The thing is, I don't have any near-future plans to do this because I've still got another 2 years of university, and I live in an apartment. But planning ahead never killed anyone.

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gumby
Everyone agrees an auto can be faster but a stick can be more fun. espically if you are ona budget and $1500 in trick tranny work in not in the budget.

Now if we go unlimited budget and I put a 12 speed stick with 4 over drives, your auto may win the 1/4 mile but I would win the mile.

It all depends on what you consider fun. If I think jamming it into first at 90 is fun, how am I gonna do that in a auto. It just wont let me.

THey say you need load to build boost but the auto can only do about 3k rpm sitting still before the tires start smoking or the rear end walk around.

a stick should build better bost at the line as the rpms can be held at 6k if you want and WOT shift are no problem. Why lift???

a 6k WOT shift with 20 psi would be fun.

Matt

Keep slamming it down into first at 90 and see what happens lol

Go try a WOT shift with 20PSI on a T5 and see what happens lol, not to mention GN motors don't make power that high

I'm not going to start another turbo argument but holding the RMPS at 6K in neutral isn't going to build boost on a good sized turbo...3K on either a transbrake or on the foot brake WILL build boost...

99Hawk120 · 08-13-2003, 09:51 PM

A lot of you people have clearly never driven a turbo motor with a stick.

I have. Boost does not build in neutral. There's no load on the motor. Same reason the A/V on a Qjet won't normally open when you wing it. If you could somehow powerbrake a manual car, you might be able to build some boost that way, if you could keep the motor from stalling and/or smoking your clutch.

And you LOSE most of your boost when you shift unless you powershift, and even then you still lose some. (Remember, no load in neutral, what do you think happens when you disengage the clutch?)

Lee7 · 08-13-2003, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Hawk120
A lot of you people have clearly never driven a turbo motor with a stick.

I have. Boost does not build in neutral. There's no load on the motor. Same reason the A/V on a Qjet won't normally open when you wing it. If you could somehow powerbrake a manual car, you might be able to build some boost that way, if you could keep the motor from stalling and/or smoking your clutch.

And you LOSE most of your boost when you shift unless you powershift, and even then you still lose some. (Remember, no load in neutral, what do you think happens when you disengage the clutch?)

a turbo cannot tell if the engine is under load or not. There is nothing hooked up to the turbo that tells it how much or if any load is on the engine.

Its 100% possible to make boost in neutral, reverse drive/whatever as long as you can keep the engine from pinging off the rev limiter. (which is almost imposible to do while also keeping it at WOT)

So while making boost in neutral is technically possible, its not very achievable.

TTA850 · 08-13-2003, 10:17 PM

Everything fly89gta and 99Hawk120 said is true with regards to why you wouldnt want a stick behind a turbo motor.A well set up automatic would run circles around a stick turbo car.Even the imports have gone to auto's on the faster car like Venom racings 7 second supra that runs a 2sp powerglide.

I'd also like to add that a properly set up auto will always be quicker than a stick for several reasons.For one an auto can launch better with a good converter and over 2:1 torque multiplication,something you dont get with a clutch.Auto's also shift instantly,I dont want to hear how good of a driver you are you will not out shift an automatic.

The only exception I see to the above comment is in bone stock cars the stick will have an advantage due to the low stall of stock converters.Get that out of the way and watch out the auto is gonna 60ft the hell out of the stick car,especially a turbo car.

Steve

fly89gta · 08-13-2003, 10:29 PM

Lee, go rev my motor with a TE60 turbo on it in neutral and tell me if it makes boost :sillylol:

Like I said in a different thread....keep the throttle at say 1/2 throttle in neutral...then go put the car in gear and powerbrake the car at 1/2 throttle..then tell me what makes more boost or if any at all....

AGood2.8 · 08-13-2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by camaro_junkie
Wow, this is a hot topic. I only just started this thread earlier tonight.

AGood2.8: Autos have there place too, but in a sports car of mine, there will always be a manual. We could go back and forth "arguing" which is better, but we might as well just agree to disagree. Granted I haven't driven a "built" auto, but I wouldn't expect it to thrill me personally.

No you wouldn't expect it- thats my point- I ask you then, why is my car faster than Almost(TTA that almost is for you)any other V6 here- and mines a little 2.8- Its called drivetrain- my car puts more of what little power we have to the pavement.

Gumby · 08-14-2003, 12:05 AM

anoter tid bit of info.

"Other than the '96-02 Camaro/Firebird...the Holden division of GM (in Australia) uses RWD 3800's!! Same folks that are building the new GTO's!!

They have ALL the cool toys down there now!!

__________________
Scott Baker
BPG #1208

"

99Hawk120 · 08-14-2003, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee7
a turbo cannot tell if the engine is under load or not. There is nothing hooked up to the turbo that tells it how much or if any load is on the engine.

It can't? Hmmmm... News to me. In fact, I believe you're suggesting the laws of physics don't apply to turbochargers--either that or conveniently forgetting a few of them.

Try this, assuming you have a naturally aspirated, auto car available to monkey with. With the engine running and a vacuum gauge hooked up:

1) Put the trans in drive, put your left foot on the brake, and bring the RPM up to the point where the car is straining against the brake. Record the RPM and vacuum gauge reading.

2) Put the trans in netural, bring the RPM up to the value recorded in step 1. Record the vacuum gauge reading again

Compare the two values. Note the vacuum reading in drive will be MUCH lower than in neutral. You do understand what engine vacuum readings tell you, right?

Now find a similar stick shift car and read the vacuum, in neutral, at the same rpm. Which vacuum reading is it similar to, and why?

If you're still not convinced, take the stick shift car out on the road. Cruise in medium gear around the same RPM. Record the vacuum reading at steady state cruise. Then find a hill and go up it. Without shifting, attempt to keep the RPM at the same value by giving the car more throttle. What happens, and why?

Once you've done all this, tell me how it relates to turbocharged cars and why I bothered to type all of this out.

Gumby · 08-14-2003, 01:21 AM

We all know that but a turbo runs off of exhaust gasses, a auto at 2500 rpm only puts out so much gas, under load or not, the ammount of gas at 2500 is the same.

a stick at 5000 rpm is putting out twice as much gas but under no load. The turbo wuld spin twice as fast and create more boost.

Its a tricky subject. neither answer is right or wrong. Load will have no effect on the ammount of gas at a said rpm, but then again load is good.

Matt

fly89gta · 08-14-2003, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gumby
We all know that but a turbo runs off of exhaust gasses, a auto at 2500 rpm only puts out so much gas, under load or not, the ammount of gas at 2500 is the same.

and what we're saying is that it's NOT the same amount of exhaust gas...THAT'S THE POINT, nor is it the same velocity. Like Ron said...go drive a stick turbo car..go drive a turbo car PERIOD...we're not making this up.

All this talk about boost this, boost that..it depends on the size of the engine and the size of the turbo as well which I think people are failing to relize.

Put my turbo on a 1.8L and then put it on a 350..which motor is going to spool that thing faster to get out of vacumn and into boost? hmmm I wonder...

AGood2.8 · 08-14-2003, 09:27 AM

Guys, turbos build (spin) off of air flow and not rpm- hence why boost will not build in neutral. When you rev a motor that is not in gear (not under a load) it will spin up rpms with just a small blip of the throttle, and it will hold to 6000 rpm's with it barely cracked open and held there-why? because there is no load on the motor and it will rev freely.

When the TB is barely cracked open and held in neutral, the motor will rev but hardly any air flow is present through the intake. Now that little air flow through the intake is of course what goes through the motor and out the exhaust, AND consequently what spins the turbo- lack of airflow volume will not spin the turbo enough to produce boost.

same basic principle on a n/a car. Rev the motor to 6000 rpm's and simultaniously dump the clutch while maintain throttle position (which should be bare cracked open to maintain 6000 rpm's in neutral- otherwise you will blow the motor if you hold it WOT in neutral)- what happens?- there is no power because even at high rpm's, the TB plate is not open to to provide airflow (feed the motor). Now on a turbo car the motor feeds the turbo.

Rpm's and boost are totally unrelated with no load on the motor.

TTA850 · 08-14-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gumby
We all know that but a turbo runs off of exhaust gasses, a auto at 2500 rpm only puts out so much gas, under load or not, the ammount of gas at 2500 is the same.

a stick at 5000 rpm is putting out twice as much gas but under no load. The turbo wuld spin twice as fast and create more boost.

Its a tricky subject. neither answer is right or wrong. Load will have no effect on the ammount of gas at a said rpm, but then again load is good.

Matt

Its not a tricky subject if you take a minute to think, the more load placed on an engine the more air/fuel it's going to take in and the more spent gasses its going to let out.It's the same as why a car might lean out in 3rd but not in 1st,because the load is increased in 3rd and requires more fuel.

Go back and read what fly89gta, 99Hawk120, and AGood2.8 just said as they are explaining it in such a way that even the simple minded should understand.

Steve