for the info on what i did to the car, see this post:hit curb, steering messedup, HELP So, after installing MOOG tierods, center link, and idler arm I had the bird aligned at the local les schwab (good standing NW tire center) and the guy said my sub frame is bent. I find this hard to believe when I hit a curb at 15MPH or less. Anyway. He said it is outside of align able limits. He recommends a frame shop. Well, a frame shop is going to charge me 150 dollars just to inspect it. The cause for an inspection charge is the fact that a frame inspection takes 3hrs of labor. I have come to realize this is a necessary expenditure. And will be done regardless of my decided course of action. So here are my options OPTION ONE: Have the car straightened on the frame rack. I hade the frame guys make a rough ballpark guess, they said a car needs to spend anywhere between 8 and 24 hrs on the rack, at 50 dollars an hour. That’s 400-1,200 dollars. That is WAY too much. OPTION TWO: Buy a new Fbody with a straight frame and a blown engine/no engine. And do an engine swap. Take all of my cool stuff like all new suspension components, 4th gen console, most of the interior, stereo, ect and swap it over to the most likely gutted rolling chassis. NOTE: P.I.T.A OPTION THREE: Get just the sub frame from a junkyard, pull my car into the garage, remove the hood, put the engine hoist on it, drop the suspension, control arms, spindles ECT… remove sub frame, replace with new (from junkyard) sub frame, install new engine mounts (why not?) and new control arms (while I’m in there, ohhh, with bearings instead of bushings too) and reinstall suspension. Have aligned, done. Ok, so the poll is witch option would you choose, if option one how much is too much to spend on the frame. Any other insight would be nice too. Thankyou all for reading my long post and helping me with my car ending delema. attached is the copy of my alinement report EDIT: i misspelled money in the poll

How does it drive???

Id call local tech schools that will do the work at a discount.

Or it depends on how it drove, I might just leave it alone. Id do my own home alignment with a straight edge and call it a day.

Ok, if its the subframe that can be bolted off n on, then it doesnt even need to be on a rack in the first place. This could be done at your time and money if it is the part that can be bolted off n on.

If it is the main uni-body that is bent, I wouldnt bother fixing it, that is way to much $ for a v6 fbody. Either drive it out of alignment burning used tires, or find another ride.

I think they're ripping you on the quote. Mine is a lil tweaked too, but they said it shoudln't be more than 4 or 5 hours @ 50/hr....and it doesn't take 3 hours to check the frame.

overclock, yeah, i have not yet shopped around for frame shops, just called one and used there quote.

so our subframes do unbolt right? one thing i was thinking, i hit the left front tire. the guy at the alignment shop said he can see where the control arm compressed the "engine cradle" (he is from astralia and that is what he called it) so i am sure its the subframe, but not positive, thats why i need to have the frame shop check it out.

the one i called also said they can check the strut towers for free. goo9d. if those are all thats bent this could be easy. i think my front left might be too, if you look at my casteron the left front (see picture) you can see it is outside of alighnable limits. but i also think it might be cheap to have just the strut towers repaired

dale- not exactly, i still don't know if they can check just the subframe, (if it's off the car) also, before i go through all the work i wan't to be sure it's JUST the subframe, or that it is not the subframe before i get a new car.


thanks for the input guys, i'll call a few more frame shops and see what kind of prices i can get here in a few hours (after work) now i hafta leave for wok, looks nice out, think i'll pull off the tops, maybe for the last time....

Those prices are outrageous!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to a collision repair shop, preferably an old one. 150 bucks for inspection! fuk that, they charge you 100 bucks to put it on a lift and 50 bucks to shine a flashlight?

Their prices are pretty high. I'd defantly look into finding another shop, and ask others who have had their cars worked on at the prespective shops.

no, aframe inspection, they put it on a frame rack and hang presision guages from it, then shine a flashlight. a technician hast to do it. it's not like any inspection. it will tell me exactly how off to the tenths of degrees my frame is bent and where.thats why it costs 150$

If its just the engine cradle bent, that unbolts and fixable. But if the rest of the body or what I guess your calling subframe, the car is no good anymore.

Start shopping for another. Seriously, if the unibody is tweaked, you're screwed, unless you want to dump the $$ into straightening it, and then it's still not guaranteed - IIRC, even after they 'fix' it, it'll still never be 'straight' again....

I'd get another fbody, and swap the stuff. You can always sell the stuff from the new car, and part out the fenders/etc from your tweaked one, to offset the cost somewhat.

Or better, take that new fbod, have it aligned, and then GET SOME SUBFRAME CONNECTORS!

They really should have come stock.

well bfore i do any rame stuff i am going to take it to another alinement shop (scotys auto body in hillsboro) and see what they say. then if they say my frame is bent i will take it to a frame shop shell out whatever there price is for a frame inspection. then if the engine cradle is all thats bent replace it and keep on trucking.

thanks everyone for the advice

It is also possible that the cradle shifted. There are 2 (or 3?) bolts on each side that fasten it to the unibody. Probably has rubber bushings too.

If the cradle shifted this changes the relationship between the lower suspension (lower A arm, spindle. . .) and the top of the shock tower (where the strut mounts).

Another possibility is that the A arm mounting ears on the cradle bent. If so then another cradle may be required.

Can hang a string with a weight on the end (plumb-bob) over the fender at the center of the wheel. Measure the distance from the string to the wheel. Both sides should be the same.

Then measure from the rear face (tread) of the tire to the lower corner of the wheel well. Again both sides shoud be the same.

Jack up front of car and put on jackstands. Eye-ball the lower A arm attachment points. Compare the good side to the hit-the-curb side. See if there are any differences. Look for one that may be bent back or in a little.

If the string measurements are off, and you can't see anything bent, then check if the cradle has shifted. Should be able to see wear marks from the ages.

RBob.

I KNOW YOUR SOLUTION!
Buy this SO CAL RUST FREE 1990 Camaro with a converted 5 speed & a 3.4 project engine. Currently runs & moves.
Camaro is White/Beautiful Red Interior
Convert this 1990 Camaro to the T Tops you have on your ride. Add Subframe connectors, too.
Part out what's left over.
WHY NOT DO JUST ROOF BODY work if ya gonna do any work?
Oh yeah & some swapping of stuff back & forth, but in end you will have one primo restored long term ride.
The Camaro is going for inexpensive, too!
BELIEVE ME when I say I'd grab it (it's a beaut!), but too many playtoys now to give this project a decent future.
You may be the perfect candidate to make this happen & totally benefit from it, too!
Really sorry to hear of this tale of woo.
Perhaps this idea may brighten your day!

PS STREET LEGAL HEADERS COMING SOON!

the reason they are saying that is becouse your sai angle is out.......... now look i beleave that you can make brackets that will allow ajustment on the strut (top on wheel whell) it my not be your frame it may be your lca...or spindle.

yes i had deffinatly considered that, i have heard you can buy beffed upo aftermarket ones. if i did this i would also seize the oportunity to replace engine mounts and control arm bushings at th same time.

KED85__ if i had a hard top there is no way i would convert it to a t-top, damnn leaks, i would leave it hard. so where is this camero and how much, PM me with details, if my frame is bent and the cameros is not i would be verry interested.

Xceleratemaro__ what does SAI stand for. i know it is the angle that the struts are making. but what does it mean. also, i beleave what hapened is my cradle bent, changing that angle and the relationship of the control arms to each other. i am realy hoping this is it. then i will do what i listed above, should actually be fun.

my plans are:

while i have the new cradle off the car i am going to spray paint it powder blue. going to look sweet under my car. new tierods, centerlink, idler arm, powder blue engine cradle, cleaned up everything else. going to looklike i have done some real hardcore suspension mods to it.

i have an apointment monday to have the car alined at scootys auto body, they said by dialing in the alinment they can tell what is bent most likley. they come highly recomended by my friends parents, my friends dad is a do-it-yourselfer, he has rebuilt twop engines, but somtimes there are jobs you just don;t want to tackle. he takes it to scotty's. i am hoping i like them as much.

thanks again for the help guys. i'll keep you updated

I think it might be fun to buy the Honda.
its not me, so whatever you can afflord.

Personally i would either have it aligned as much as possible and deal with it, unless it is WAY out of alignment.

Or i would just buy another car, your car is pretty ugly, needs paintjob, wheels, etc. So it would be better off to just buy a new/better looking car than trying to fix yours up.

Let me guess, you want to buy it?
/
Your having PMS. [Pre Monday Syndrom]

I'll be happy to send ya an email & hope for your best re$ult$!
Or send me a quick email too!

steering axis inclination..SAI now i kinda jumped the gun on that.

the sai angle tells you if you cradle or spindle or other parts are bent. if i were you i would get a seconed opionion from a vary reputible soures on the aliment.

I agree with my earlier statement. Go with the Honda, My inclination is a civic.

why don't you go post whore somplace else, this is a tech thread.

your one to be talking, you must own, or have owned a Civic lameass

Kj Rockz:

i am 20. i learned to drive on my moms 90 buick park avanue
i had a sazuki samuri. sold it to buy my 88 jeep charookee. then i purchased my 86 bird, have had that ever since.

i have also driven the following cars for more then ten miles:
dads 87 dodge shadow
dads 87 suburban 350 (gone now)
dads 94 454 suburban
moms oldsmobile aurora (we raced and beat a 4th gen fbody in this)
moms chrysler cirus
dodge 2500 pickup
izzuzu NPR box van (work)
1991 nissan 240sx (with an sr20 det turbo motor)
79 datsan pickup (friends)
many others while i was changing oil for enterprize but only for a short time

the only time i have ever even driven a honda is when i use to change oil for enterprise rent-a-car. some like them, i think they lack pontiacs driving excitement.

instead of saying somthing mean spirited here, will just point out all that text about post whoring below your avitar, i will that that speak for itself. also if you feel the need to continue off topic discussion about cars i own or have driven, feel free to PM me, i would be happy to talk to you at lenght about it, but i would like to keep this thread tech only from this point on if thats cool.

everyone else:

so, my car goes into scottys auto body tomorow for another alinement check, should post tomorow at around 5pm what is wrong with it for sure. i'll keep you posted ha, posted, its a pun, get it....

KJ has been on the road to being banned for a while but he usually turn off before he hits the wall. I would suggest more or less drugs, depending on the brand.

I think so, thanks Gumby.

I have owned, 1990 Olds Cutlass Supreme
1985 Chevy Imark.
1987 Chevy Celebrity
1987 Chevy Monte Carlo
1991 Chevy Camaro
1995 Dodge Caravan
1997 Olds Cutlass Supreme

Who knows what i'll own next.
My list is too damn long for cars that i have drove over 10 mins, that i wont list it.

all I will say is that I have driven a 1997 Dodge Viper RT-10

and i should add that I owened them all, how many cars have you owened, I mean I'm only 23
the street i used to live on the guy owned it

i touched an rt 10 once, and i have only owned the three i listed as owning.

gumby, you are the the man.

anyway going to leave hear after i finish my bowl of bannana nut crunch (man this stuff is good) and go to the alighnment shop. i'll t you all know what the result is. wish my luck

I'm curious. Did he know that you replaced these things? Do you know if he tried to align anything?

Maybe he saw the #s were way out of spec, and assumed it was due to a bent frame. But it might actually be because you installed the new parts- know what I mean?

And this might just be something as simple as a bent spindle... I hopped a curb so bad that it put a bubble in the sidewall of my tire, and it was just a bent spindle.

Well, got the car back from Scotties auto body. They confirmed one of my suspicions; my springs are the wrong size. Oh, and my control arm is bent.

So the spring issue, when I got my car it had lowering springs on it, way to low. So I replaced them with what I was told were the right part# for the v6 springs (14029399) that I got from a local dealership. Well turns out that part number is the WS6 v8 spring. So that is what is on my car now, a WS6 v8 spring.
Scotties gave me this part number as a v6 spring: (14034238). Witch is no longer available from GM. Another local GM dealership gave me this number today (14029390) but they are so cheap I can only figure they must be iron duke springs for the L4 engine. they are cheaper then the rear springs I purchased.
Anyway, long story short, does anyone know the part number for the v6 springs?
And the control arm issue, what is the best brand of aftermarket control arms I can get on a budget? Input would be appreciated as long as that input does not include buying a Honda.

Springs do not truly cost that much.
Adding fancy words to a "spring" can raise the price.
Perhaps you have been given the correct cost & part number.
My Corvette Poly Coated Coil Springs?
Cost by one vendor was about $80 or so, not including shipping.
Same spring thru a local vendor cost me $55 plus sales tax.
IF you have a MOOG box left over, call them!
Ask them for the spring suggestion.
A V6 with F41/Y99 optional handling package did have a different spring number than the Standard Suspension V6 Firebird/Camaro

That's awesome!!! It's not the frame at all? Very cool!!

Whatever the local junkyard charges! I think a set of aftermarket tubular FRONT lca's will run you over $300. (just did a search) Yep, part # 1293SP or 1294SP on PA Racing's webpage: http://paracing.com/gm_products2.htm

And I just found this on the 'net, don't know if these guys are good/bad vendors (check our "Aftermarket Vendor Review" forum)- http://www.fbodymotorsports.com/inc/...l?v=1&pid=7513 $25/ea used...

Our sponsor up top, Thunder Racing, sells the PA Racing LCA's here: http://www.thunderracing.com/index.c...ategoryid=1071

Xophertony, do you still happen to have them aftermarket lowering springs? If so, I might be willing to trade

Control arms, just go to a yard, get both left and right. then get new bushings pressed in, check ball joints. Then install BOTH.

Geez I better post somthing after reading all that.

I agree with Dale, get some nice undamaged control arms slap new ball joints in and see how she feels. But on a side note Karl is right MOOG still produces all the correct suspension parts, If they can still get me parts for the 56 Buick they better have parts for a 3rdgen.

dale, those springs were shot! see my sig pic, car was so low i could drive down the road and bottom out on a pot hole. you would not have wanted them. i took much plesure in throwing them in the trash (actually i placed them in my brothers stripped front clip of his JDMs13 before he took it to the scraper)




not quite, we can't know (short of putting on a frame rack to the tune of 150$ if the frame is bent till i fix the springs and LCA.

oh, also, when i put the current springs on i went ahead and replaced the balljoints then. so i will reuse the 3month old balljoind in my new LCA.

two things about the LCA swap. what is the best thing i can replace the stock bushings with, i know polyurithane is good i heard somone mention that you can actually put a berring race in, is there any truth to that?

also, what do you all think of this, while the control arms are out paint them powder blue. control arms are so cool looking when painted, nice or ri<e ?

one more thing, is it posible to cut my current WS6-V8 springs and get stock ride hieght for the v6, i know guys do this with v8 lowering springs, and i know to use an angle grinder or cutoff wheel and not a torch, but is it practical? how many coils? one coil one inch right?

See:

http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...erical+bearing

A drawing, part numbers, supplier, and all.

RBob.

Class in session...
Math time
New springs going for about $60 - 75 (you can sell your current ones to offset costs)
Cut current springs - $20-ish which (if correct, increases pressure, yet will lower ride)
Arms, used - $50 - $100
Parts....
Rubber bushings - $20ish
Poly bushings - $40-ish
Hi Tech race spec'd parts - $$$$
New poly bushings for the Front Sway Bar, too!
Refurbish used parts by media blasting - $20ish
Paint - $10 (washes off after a good winter storm).
Don't forget to add your personal time/labor
Then add in the Frame adjustment of $150.
AND figure in the Positive/Negative Frame tech response (which could be another $$ varible)
Hand in the test results when class is over....

i am doing all this so i don't haveto get the frame inspected. once i replace all this if it still wont alighn then i know it's the engine cradle.

rbob, thanks for the info, man that costs alot. poly urithane it is.

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my current control arms have no rust problems, i was mostly considering this for looks. hey thanks for the shamless advertisment anyway i kid, i kid. if i drove it on the beach or somthink (or lived in a beach town for that matter) i would, but i live in the willamet vally, so i am fine with bear metal LCA's

<img src="http://www.camarogirl.com/crash/Picture%20010.jpg" width="448" height="300">

I am not sure of the specifics but that car went backwards (it was on the road) over that embankment, well over 40 MPH and it's frame was not bent. I honestly doubt your frame is bent. But I also know that there is nothing that car's owner would NOT do to fix that car (in fact repairing the car from that accident was around 3000 dollars total) .

I found this topic as I was looking for something else, this is not my account but my friends , and that is her car. I do know from expierence when I hit a curb going about 40 MPH that it knocked my steering wheel off so that when it was pointing the wheel's straight the steering wheel was not actually straight. And it also had a lot more give in it. We took the car to firestone and they fixed it for 67.00.

do you kno what they fixed?

I dropped it off just thinking it was wheel alignment, thats what I told them to do. They said that is what they did, realigned it, and they also advised me that there is some steering box thing that I probably needed to replace to get it to get rid of a small amount of jiggle in the wheel. I never got the steering box, as I really did not care about a 1/4 inch jiggle.

I hit the curb going pretty fast, considering. We took a ramp too fast trying to avoid a ticket, and it curved a lot more then I was expecting. The car was in about a 90 degree turn at the time we hit the curb, both front wheels went over and we were half on half off the curb. Had to be going at the very least 40. The impact was hard enough that it caused the walls of both tires to split and those air bubbles to appear. As well as damaging the fton driver side rim badly enough that it had to be replaced before they could realign the car. If you only hit at 15mph and didn't do any other damage you may just want to try a firestone. Of course... that is if they had one in your area.

It should NOT take ANY body shop 3 hours to setup and measure a Fbody. I don't even give my shops 3 hours of setup and measure of big trucks. It shouldn't take any decent shop more than an hour and a half to get their measurements....

Good news on just the LCA though, if that's all you really have to replace due to the curb you lucked out

My frame is twisted too the car drives kind of side ways

been a couple of days, ok heres an update:
have new control arm needcnew springs and bushings for controlarm. going with polyurithane. whre do i buy the poly bushings? and the springs for that matter

Performance Suspension Components
800-572-3768 (AZ)
Say hi to Larry & tell him the guy with a 1974 Corvette that bought stuff from ya at Long Beach swap meets recommended ya
800-831-0884
Northern Auto Parts (Iowa)
Got lots of stuff from both of them.
I also source the local stores & try to deal straight with local manufactures.
Give Moog headquarters a call. I only have phone numbers for old TRW HQ's
Speak to the MOOG tech suspension guy. He'll give ya the right information ya need.
Do you know if your car came with the Y99/F41 suspension option package?
Some V6's (mine & project85 Firebird) came this was. Spring rates may be "different" (I believe mine is this case) than base F Body suspensions.
THICKEST sway bars (mine is a 34mm up front) are big quick clues.
The guy at House of Camaros remembered ya when I saw him yesterday. I bought a used front Firbird tan carpet from him for $30!

ACCORDING TO
my TRW COIL SPRING 1997 book
YA WANT
CS5608*
Called out as HD
Spec'd as
1985 6 cylinder ALL, auto w/AC
Spec's
4.080 inch diameter square end & tangential end
bar diameter inches is 0.687 install height is 11", load pounds is 1640 spring rate is 421 & free height is 14.88 inches

I needed a break from preparing taxes.
But that is factory TRW specs for a V6 w/F41/Y99 package.

i do have a 34mm sway bar. guy that sold me the car thought it was aftermarket also, i do not have the factory invoice (yet, 4 more weeks!!!) for my car, so i don't know what kind of suspension packages it came with. but like you said, it has the thickest sway bar.


one more question. control arm bushings. no matter what control arms i have that part is all the same right. 15" wheels 16" wheels l4-v8 all have the same bushings right?

ok, called around for like 45 minutes.
so, here go the awards for the best and worst in the hillsboro area ::drumroll::

#worst customer service.. goes to mikes autoparts of beaverton. hey guys, get a phone that works a clerk that speaks english and you will be set to go...

#best customer service goes to schucks auto parts in hillsboro. they are going to price match the autozone and beaet them by 5% oh yeah.

#cheapest price schucks again

# most expensive knects at 51.99 for energy suspension.

#fastest phone answering plainview autoparts. guy picks up the phone and says "plainvew sop fast i thout he just burped. i ask him for the part, he says "polyurithane, we wouldent have those" and i say oh thanks and he grumbles and hangs up. wow, way to go.


so i am buying from the shucks. "energy suspensin" front LCA kit for 39.99 or less. part # 33157g the g means they are black.

You are correct on all your assumptions.
You got the good stuff.
Order those springs.
Tell them it came from the catalog I spec'd for ya.
OR ask them for "any better choice".
I do not believe they will find a better spring choice.