140cilx

Hey Guys,

I own a '84 Mustang SVO which I dragrace and autox. These are turbocharged 4 bangers that came stock at 175 hp. I'm hoping to hit the dyno in October and hit the 300hp/360tq mark. These are easily modded great old cars. Very bulletproof. Doesn't take much $$ to get them to that level. I've got about $3k in the car total. Here it is: http://140cilx.stangnet.com/photo2.html
I've also got a turbocharged LX (also 2.3 liters) that's somewhere over 400hp now and runs a 75 shot of nitrous.

-just mentioned the above to say I've got a good background in turbocars and I'm a huge fan of turboing. Ready to fabricate. I hope I can be welcome around here.

I've got a bud, he's got a real keeper 3.1 RS '92 Camaro w/ 5 speed he wants to make into a nice sleeper and join me in some track stuff.

I've searched through your threads lightly and see turboing is a hot topic and it's being done. What I wanted to find was someone who's been there/done that/here's how.

Anyone got a homebrew "how to", since it appears a purchased kit is still in the works?

A few questions: What's the bottom end of a 3.1 able to handle in hp stock?

Are the piston's forged by any chance?

Because of the small displacement I was thinking of a spare Garrett T3 off a T-Bird might be ideal. Run 10-12 psi and enjoy very little lag. Agree?

Looks like it would work best placed at the rear of the car, skip intercooling it. Will need an oil pump (got a suggestion?)

Does the stock computer work well w/ the above mentioned boost level? If not, might a one way valve in route to the MAP/BAP (or Chevy equiv) keep the computer from seeing boost so that it doesn't whig out?

Stock fuel pump is good for running a boosted application?

I don't want to get exotic, just keep it low budget but push the car over the 200 hp mark.

Thank you,
140

Hee Hee! Just found this in the sticky newbie thread at the top: Is there a turbo/supercharger kit for my V6? Ans: No, you'd have to completely fab everything up, which is why no one on this board to date has done it. Many have talked about it, but none have followed through. So if you talk about it and get laughed at or just not taken seriously, you now know why.

TechSmurf

Yeah.. I revised that sticky quite some time ago, but everyone got pissy with me so I deleted the new one and left the old one... speaking of which, I think I'm going to redo the sticky in a few weeks.

Anyway.. the 3.1 uses a 1-bar MAP system. It'll require either a 749 2-bar conversion, a 1227302 or 1227165 MAF conversion, or a FMU. I don't think the turbo coupe's T3 would be large enough, but you can always try and swap it out for another T3 if things don't go well. Search around.. there's quite a bit of info out here now.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Check out my cardomain site for my turbo V6 camaro I'm working on.

140cilx

thanks for that info guys.

Oil pan, enjoyed your website. You've done a ton of work I'm NOT going to do. This guy is a buddy, not my wife! I wish you the best of success on it. I hope it's a terror when completed.

I've actually found, as I have a moderately modified, and a crazily modified turboford, and I have buds with stock to way more bizarre than my stuff - that low budget/low tech is a very impressive platform.

Can someone help me from this angle: A stock TBird T3 should be able to run 10 psi on this car no problem, still well within it's efficiency range - this should add about 70 hp and matching torque. Can the stock injectors handle that with an AFPR? I'd tell him he'd have to settle for that w/ the combo we can throw together.

Let us stay within moderation so we don't go lean.

TechSmurf, I searched threads regarding the above just to get an idea what you were actually talking about. It kinda looks like you have the market cornered on understanding the above as you had started the threads or posted throughout them. The 749 conversion - not interested unless my buddy relays to me he feels like taking on the challenge of the "to do" list. FMU def not. Reading about the "1227302 or 1227165 MAF conversion", are those part numbers? Everyone responding to threads with those numbers already knew what they were. What are those exactly? And I looked at some of the pinouts listed - don't go detailed for your sake, but are you talking swapping in a different MAF and some pinswaps & wiring plug ins at the computer? I have no qualms with that.

I know we're talking totally diff vehicles, but we can take a n/a 2.3, with n/a computer and run 10 lbs of boost - as the vehicles run inherently rich to begin with. Add a little fuel pressure and you can coax 15 lbs out of them. You believe this would not be the case w/ the 3.1 or it just has not been tried?

Thanks for your help. I'm getting somewhere.

140

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Them numbers he listed are the ECM/GM part number, often also refured to as the last 4 numbers.

I'm not a turbo expert, but I would say NO on the stock 15lb injectors handling boost with just an AFPR. You would need to go to atleast 19 I would think, and slightly re-program the ecm.

honestly, doward here is the one with the turbo/MAP info as hes the one doing it.

Doward

Stock injectors in the 3.1 are 15pph. No way will they handle 10 psi. A T3 is too small (unless modified to T3-60 range) to effectively handle 10psi on a 3.1L motor. A CT26 off a Mark III Supra would be better to start with, from a low buck standpoint.

Our pistons are not forged - but the rods are. GM rates the rods to handle 7000 rpm. The pistons, although cast, are pretty beefy. They are made by Mahle, from what I've been able to collect.

I am still working on the boost + MAP scenario. It will require a different prom, and a new MAP (2 bar) at the very least. I'm actually looking at simply building an adapter harness, to go from 739 to 749 ecu, and handle the boost that way, as well as later down the line, a 302-749. Think of it as a Stage II Computer Upgrade.

Doward

Not without like 60+ psi of fuel pressure

Quote:

TechSmurf, I searched threads regarding the above just to get an idea what you were actually talking about. It kinda looks like you have the market cornered on understanding the above as you had started the threads or posted throughout them. The 749 conversion - not interested unless my buddy relays to me he feels like taking on the challenge of the "to do" list. FMU def not. Reading about the "1227302 or 1227165 MAF conversion", are those part numbers? Everyone responding to threads with those numbers already knew what they were. What are those exactly? And I looked at some of the pinouts listed - don't go detailed for your sake, but are you talking swapping in a different MAF and some pinswaps & wiring plug ins at the computer? I have no qualms with that.

I know we're talking totally diff vehicles, but we can take a n/a 2.3, with n/a computer and run 10 lbs of boost - as the vehicles run inherently rich to begin with. Add a little fuel pressure and you can coax 15 lbs out of them. You believe this would not be the case w/ the 3.1 or it just has not been tried?

Thanks for your help. I'm getting somewhere.

140

Aren't your 2.3 n/a motors using a vane type mass airflow meter? If so, that is why - a mass air meter, will simply meter more fuel per more air flowing through it. That's why I've already completed the computer side of things, with the MAF based 2.8, and still working on the 3.1 MAP based system.

140cilx

well heck, discouraging info.

'91 and earlier fuel injected n/a 2.3's do not use any type of airflow meter. Just a MAP sensor measuring vacuum. The turbo 2.3's do use the now primitive Vane Airflow Meter - but it is a good little part that works well.

Is there an injector w/ the same impedance, match etc the computer will not recognise as different like a 19 lb'er mentioned earlier that richen the mix? I'm sure were it that easy it would have been done already - but you wouldn't believe the turbomyths that have been disproven over the last 5 years simply because nobody in the Ford camp had tried this or that.

-real good info!

Doward

Sure, you can use any saturated (Hi impedence) GM injector (we can't use P&H injectors unless using the 749 ecu I believe)

Going with 19pph will make you run pig rich, unless you reprogram the PROM to compensate... One thing I believe us GM guys have over the Ford guys, is we can delve into, and reprogram most any part of our ecu.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I am running ford crown vic 4.6l 19lb fuel injectors on my 3.4.

I know you can also use dodge dakota injectors (not sure on rating). However, i was told fords (bosch??) injectors have the best spray pattern, and best selinoids.

These use some of the most commen injector shape and ohms on the market, you wont have a problem finding them.

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

The T03 is a little small for a 3.4 but on 3.1 should be a little better suited for the job.
A T04/T03 would be your best option I would think.

TechSmurf

1227749: Syclone, Typhoon, Turbo Sunbird. 2-bar MAP Turbo-specific ECU system with integral wastegate controls if you're feeling really frisky. 14.7 psi max. 3-bar conversion code readily available on the net. 29.4 psi max. Going this route will require custom prom work (full retune) and a little research on the stock 3.1 ECU harness. I'm replacing my 7302 with one of these.

1227302: Stock 2.8l digital (frequency film) MAF system. System is limited to reading somewhere between 8-12 psi on a 3.1 (212 gm/sec limit in code, unsure what MAF can physically handle). MAF must be suck-through due to design, and is obscenely small/restrictive. If you take on this ECU. Going this route will require custom prom work, primarily to compensate for required larger injectors. Doward is still using this system.

1227165: Stock TPI analog (hot-wire) MAF system. Will support boost on a 3.1 well in excess of 15 psi (don't have the flow numbers on the top of my head, but it's at least 255 gm/sec). This route *may* not require custom prom work, as you can tell the ECU it's on a V6 simply by failing to ground a particular switch wire. Is pre-configured for 19pph or 22pph injectors, I think. Noone's tried this.

16196404: Stock 3.1 1-MAP system. No info. If you want to keep this, you'll prolly have to wait for Doward to get around to figuring the system out, or go pioneering into it *carefully*

140cilx

Thank you for this good info.

I'll continue studying.

Anybody else putting it near the rear axle like the LS1 popular aftermarket kit? Input? Looks to cramped under the hood, he's keeping his A/C.

Interesting note: n/a 2.3's use 19 lb injectors, but their turbo brethren use 35 lb injectors - yet, moderate boost w/ 19 lbs and the n/a computer work fine with no lean condition.

As well, the last 2 years of the turbocoupes, these cars used a much smaller IHI turbo - I don't know the specific trim off the top of my head. But it works great for street/mild applications w/ some guys ET's in the 13's for the heavy 3600 lb TC's. I had an IHI and next to my T3/T4 hybrid on my LX it looked like a cute toy. They ran out of breath at 18 psi rather than 23 psi for a TC T3. The nice thing is, for autox and the street they had zero turbolag, immediate boost right from idle. I have a SVO bud that swaps out his turbo's depending on the track, and his IHI is awesome for tight stuff. It will rip up the tires right around 1800 rpm.

The reason I was thinking of a T3 from a TC was for the same purpose - give this 3.1 some great torque down low, keep the boost low, skip the adjustable BV and let the wastegate open at it's 10 psi setting.

Would I feed the oil line to the turbo from a "t" at the oil pressure sending unit? What method do you guys propose to use?

Do you have in mind a specific auxillary oil pump to return the oil to the pan that might save me some time locating?

TechSmurf

Mine's Teed from the oil pressure sending unit's fitting. Oil return is being handled by gravity. It's really not that cramped up front... more than enough room for a turbocharger. If your buddy has a smog pump, though, pipe routing could get interesting.

Wait.. 3.1s use a serpentine system.. it'll get interesting. Wait for Doward's next reply

Doward

I T'd off the oil pressure unit, too. Gravity return to the side of the oil pan... 1/2" Pipe tap'd

Serpentine setup here - remove the smog pump, and you have more than enough room to run the exhaust back. TONS of room up front! I mean, I can stand between my radiator and the motor itself.

Doward

Also - the 302 will read up to 255 g/s too - 3.1 will pull about 130 g/s. Enough for boost up to 14psi, but hey - go into P/E mode with a WB O2, and boom - all the boost you can handle at WOT!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Same here, swaybars make it fun, but between engine and radiator, no problem.

I feel having it by rear axle is not good, but again, I'm no turbo expert.

Doward

I don't like the idea of a rear mounted turbo either. Portable sawzall will swipe that in a matter of seconds!


Besides, the more heat energy you can have present to drive the turbine, the better. Closer is better.

140cilx

well I sure appreciate this good help. I'll study the car closely.

Of those guys (2) that are turbo'd on this board - I'm not seeing websites. I went through your post's on your progress and didn't see finished products. Might I please see some pics. I'd like to see the mounting bracket for the turbo if possible. A pic is worth a thousand words!

Doward, with your IC placement and it's size, could you feel a temp drop on the intake pipes cold side vs hot side?

What boost are you 2 guys running now that you are done?

Did you ever get it dyno'd?

In retrospect, is it worth it, or do you wish you had done a V8 (gasp!). I haven't owned a V8 myself in...good grief I shock me, 18 years!

Hey you guys think you have room up front? Lemme show you my Intercooler setups on my cars (btw this isn't a spitting match just good ol automotive enthusiasm!)

The dark car is the SVO, mostly stock, very awesome little car. Way ahead of it's time.
The red car I fabbed everything up from scratch, if it could be done in an **** overdone manner, I did it.

140cilx

svo engine bay

140cilx

LX

140cilx

I'm using a Volvo Intercooler and rotated the intake to point towards the front of the car to keep the piping as short as possible.

In the box is my Volvo IC, a Permacool 2,950cfm electric fan and an Affco radiator. I maintained my A/C so there is 3 "radiators" up there.

140cilx

turboside during assembly.

Doward

Wow, that's a lot up there!

And yeah, there's a difference. The tubing coming out of the turbo is fairly warm. The tubing going into the intake is ICE FREAKING COLD. I don't mean 'cool', I mean, it feels like ice. I've got HUGE flow over that massive intercooler!

I'm running 12psi, and had to stop for about a month or so, to replace the clutch hydraulics. They are in, and I'm finishing (today, hopefully!) the new Y pipe, that will probably have a good 15-20% more flow. More flow = faster spool times!

Worth it? Well, it's been a hell of a good time, and the guys here have loved all the work that myself, Vortex, and Techsmurf have done. We're all just trying to make our little 6's faster. I'd definetly say worth it.

No dyno yet. Still working on the hard part - the tuning. As it stands, I'm feeling a 14.2.

I posted a couple two or three pics... but stopped posting them, because I was catching a lot of flak (from the V8 guys, I think) because I used PVC for the intake fabbing.

So the next pics you guys see, will be Pre-Production pics, and actual Production pics.

140cilx

Thanks for all the good help. I'll report back asap. The cars owner is madly saving money towards the project.