OK, guys, as the end comes toward the turbo kits, and V and I start gearing up for an actual production run, I want to know what YOU want to see in the kit. So far - WHAT YOU GET: '86'-'89 MAF guys Turbo Chip 22pph Injectors New MAF New Air Filter Front Mount Intercooler Intercooler Piping Y pipe 2.5" Down Pipe O2 sensor (3 wire heated AC Delco unit) Oil lines Water Lines (still not sure how to run these, for the kit) T3/T4 Hybrid T04e 50 Trim (it's a little bigger and more efficient than the 16g I'm running - it'll spool just as fast, and make more power ) Turbo Heatshield 35mm External Wastegate Compressor Bypass Valve 7psi of boost, from about 2300rpm-6000rpm Approx 90-100hp increase All piping will be ceramic coated. Problems still to address - Uh.. *thinks* The water lines are the only problem I see arising. I'm still not sure how to run them in the kit... I like the way I've got them, but I'll take some pics, and get your impressions. WHAT YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP TO RUN THE KIT: Smog pump has to go. TB Coolant hosing has to go. Approx 3/4" of ground clearance (where the Y pipe tucks up under the K member) - I've got brand new 1" Dropzones on my car, and I don't scrape over anything. I DID occasionally (like 3 times) scrape over speed bumps (when going like 20mph over them) with the stock springs - but they were totally shot. Getting beat by everything in sight. Now you get to outrun some of them. Don't expect to take on LS1s right off the bat. Although, if you increase the boost a little, don't be suprised if you DO suprise a few of them. As for a warranty - don't even ask. I'll gaurantee the turbo's not bad, and everything will work as advertised, but DO NOT blame me if you blow your 300,000 mile, oil-burnin', rod-knockin' motor to pieces because you thought the motor would handle the turbo. Please, have your engine thoroughly checked before considering this turbo kit. That is also why I'm including a new MAF, injectors, and chip. So that's what you guys can expect. I am setting up a business account for this, so you guys can pay by cashier's check (have to clear, first), PayPal (Yay, put it on the credit card! lol), or Money Order. Prices will be somewhere between $2500-$3000. For you 90-92 3.1 owners, right now, the best I can do, is going to be a 12:1 FMU, with new injectors and new MAP. If you guys want to hold off until I can crack the '730 V6, that's ok with me. So that's an idea of what to expect. Comments? Questions? Suggestions? That's the purpose of this thread. I want to build you all a kit, that you all think is fair.

Can we order your turbo kit without the turbo? and how much would it be then?....just wondering of course. oh and how long till the 3.1 guys can get a kit for them

If you've got a 3.1, and want a turbo kit, I will include a FMU, in place of the injectors. Tuning it, though, will be up to you - until I can get my hands on a '90-'92 V6 fbody to play with in house.

Without the turbo? I'll have to see what kind of difference that makes... Probably close to $530.

what type of boost controler will you have to up the boost for those who want it? dial a boost or someting like that?

Since I don't have an 86+ car, why do you need the 3 wire O2 sensor? or was that sandard w/those yrs????

ALso, as I've seen happen w/Tiago's kit, make sure you cain get everything together in teh kit before shipping. He's having problems w/suppliers getting thing s for the kits adn it has delayed the kits. Some people are getting parts form different suppliers at different times.

that's all for now..........

I'm not including a boost controller - you can build one for like $5, or purchase one... I don't want any confusion - I'm building the kits to run 7psi - anything over that, is up to you (trying to idiot-proof it as best I can )

And no problems with suppliers - I'm building 90% of the kit from scratch. The only think being 'ordered' are the turbos - and those are coming from a local IN TOWN supplier.

The first run will be a group purchase. I'm thinking 10 people minimum? Altough my last post showed that to be a lot more people than that interested..

I will be taking approx 3 weeks off from work to build these, too, so I'd rather it be in a group purchase, so I can do them all at once.

Oh yeah - the '85 uses a different computer - no idea if the '302 ECU or chip will work in it. I think it uses like an '870 computer? PM me, though, and I can see about getting you the hardware, if you like - the software side will be up to you, though.

I'm including a 3 wire AC/Delco unit, because the Bosch O2 sensors suck, and the 3 wire will heat up quicker, as well as be more accurate. Something I think anyone will appreciate, with a turbocharged car!

How about just the turbo, flange, Chip, injectors, wastegate? Just curious, I can't use the kit setup on my configuration (but I've asked this before...)

glad to see this is actually getting somewhere.


thanks for the time and effort put into these doward

How I am going to water cool my turbo. Because I like you guys I'll let you in on my top secret turbo plain.
One option is to pull the plug out of the head and get pressureized coolant from there and return it to a hole in the water neck.
Or...
Tap the intake manifold where the rear head coolant port is covered up for 1/4" pipe thred to 6AN line. Like I did.

Under side.
It involves some work.
You can take it from the head plug that is kind of the easy way.
I did it like this so I could get the heads more evenly cooled.
The coolant will be hot coming off the heads but it will cool the turbos off more than oil alone.
The turbos will be under stadic cooling system pressure being that they are on the pressure side of the cooling system, that will raise the boiling point so the bearing cavitey shouldn't boil the coolant to bad.
Second it will cool the heads more evenly.
Also I was going to use 100% ethylene glycol if I'm in a warm aera for my next base if I can. If not I will keep it up to 90%10% if I can.
Coolant boiling on the reverse side of the combustion chambers leading to uneven cooling and over heating of spot areas is a cause of detonation.
The water, it's low boiling point and it's high surface tension is the main cause for this boiling.

i have a 91 3.1, if you wanna borrow it and throw on a turbo i would be more than willing...

are you gona be showing off the turbo at any of the fl-thirdgen events? i would like to see this...

would this turbo be big enough for us w/ the 3.4?

Oil Pan 4, I'll get some pics of my current setup - I simply removed the giant metal lines out the intake manifold, and came out there - I think that's a little more straightforward.

The problem is, is that I'm trying to figure out a way to run the water lines, without takeing the intake manifold off.

Of course, I may just skip over the watercooled turbo, and go with an oil cooled ball bearing turbo

I can get the turbos in pretty much any size I want. The kits will be 'tweaked' for your particular setup - FBodTrek, refresh my memory as to your setup?

Best bet is to run the $8F code. Think Turbo GranPrix . . .

RBob.

Where is the intercooler going to mount? And is there any body modifications to be done to include the intercooler?

OOohhhhhh!!!! You're a slick one... I still need a '90-'92 Fbody 3.1 here, or local, that I can work with.

TC3, are you here in Florida? If so, I'll use your ride to test!


RamTuffTiger (Told you you'd find a good question, Beej!) -

It's a Front Mount intercooler (the only kind, IMHO) - and it actually will mount in front of the radiator, below the hood latch bracket.

Also, didn't the TGP use the '727 ecu?

yeah im in florida, longwood close to orlando... map

but just so you know i have no money. i get paid 5.15 an hour and only work like 12 hours a week....... barley enough for gas...

edit: ops, thought you were in orlando, im far away from ocala... :map

I was scrolling down wondering the same thing! we might could opt for a larger turbo...No doubt the 3.4s are fresher!

Would you need a 3.4 MAF to test on? I'm not in your area, but I'm due to have a paid week off in DEC? Could always bring it down!

I was thinking about going over to the Cyclone computer with speed density...just because no one around here seems to have any experience with 2.8, 3.1 or 3.4s. No baseline for chip burning. Have to start from scratch, which will be expensive!

Yes, which is the underhood version of the '730, which is stock in the '90-'92 3.1l car.

RBob.

The Sy/Ty computer isn't required. The code mask $58 (used in GM turbo Sunbirds and Sy/Ty's) will also run in the '730. The '730 ECM is easy to find as GM used it in all kinds of vehicles.

As for 'other' code, there is a hac of the $88 code (stock 3.1l f-body), a hac of the $A1 code (stock 3.1 FWD stuff, IE: Corsica), and a hac of the $8F code (Turbo GranPrix).

Of course there is also a hac of the $58 code. All four of these masks will run in the '727/'730 ECM.

Either the $58 or the $8F code is a decent choice for a boosted app. The $8F code is newer and supports more functionality then the $58 mask.

The $8F is closer to the $88 mask then the $58 code. Which may or may not be a good thing. From a tuning standpoint the $8F is darn near a drop in. It is a 3.1l engine with 22#/hr injectors.

RBob.

Water cooling option. Simply tapping into the TB heater or performing a TB bypass like I did.The design of 'that metal pipe' forces coolant to flow through there.. there's a restrictor between the two TB heater pipes (notice how they're staggered). Not the ultimate in forced coolant, but it works for me.

Btw, Doward, I advise highly against giving up on water cooling. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who would giggle and laugh and walk away quickly from an oil-cooled turbo. Water cooled units have far fewer coking problems, and coking isn't something I'd spend upwards of 3 grand to deal with.

I don't know. Some people happily pay $3000 for a coking problem, sniff sniff sniff........ It just depends on how much coke you get.

LOL - TechSmurf, not to worry - deletion of the water cooling will ONLY happen if I go to ball bearing turbos - they do not require the same oil supply as sleeve bearing turbos, and run cooler. There aren't many, that I know of, that even have water cooling with them.

Redraif, yes, the turbo for the 3.4 will be quite sufficient.

When I open the GP, I will need everyone to list what size motor they are running - 2.8, 3.1, or 3.4 Turbos will be sized accordingly.

Timing issues, I believe. Isn't the TGP DIS vs our distributor setup?

If doward can supply me with some information I can plug this in on DDD2000 and see what they do.

Turbo Brand (dont see one listed t4/t3, do I need to say custom?)
intercooler %
Flow
Pressure Ratio
Sure Flow
Eff?

Garrett T3 .48A/R - TO4E 50 trim .5 A/R Compressor (690cfm)

Intercooler ~ 80% efficiency

Not sure what you mean by Sure Flow?

Assuming 100% VE, @ 6000rpm

2.8 - 300.35 cfm
3.1 - 331.60 cfm
3.4 - 359.375 cfm

@ 1.4762 PR (7psi)

2.8 - 443.47 CFM
3.1 - 489.50 CFM
3.4 - 530.51 CFM

Turbo flows 690 cfm. Gross oversimplification of 6 months worth of R&D, comparing flow maps vs real world. I'm using a turbo a little bit small than this, on the 3.1. (550cfm) That said, I have positive pressure @ 1900rpm, full 7psi @ 2200 rpm, and hold strong until 5200rpm. The T3/T4 hybrid that will be included with the kit, will spool almost the same - only it will not run out of breath until 6000rpm, and will support 18psi on the motor - should the motor handle it.

I'm trying to build a lot of headroom into the kit for you guys.

Also, current trap speeds vs weight put me right around 215 rwhp.

surge flow, sorry

I'll punch this in later. I got 2 models changing right now, then picture time :lala:

doward,coooooooooollllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can't wait man, no offense but originally i though u were going to use 30pph injectors, what happened? too much pph?? any ways i am looking forward to ur first sale and congratulating u on a job well done and giving the 2.8 some justice.however, why include an air filter? oh have u given any thought to advertising in high performance pontaic magazine? the reason i ask is that i am sure a lot of guys with v6's look throught thier ads for performance parts and it would be a good business decision to look into,profit wise. just trying to help bro. good luck man ,now go smoke so more 350z's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why include an air filter? Because it's only $20, and I believe that attention to the little details will bring me a lot more business (and $$) in the long run. It's simple good business, that's all.

I was originally going to use 30pph, but I've decided that's sort of overkill. The 22's work VERY well currently, but I'm thinking of moving up to 24s for the kit, simply to have a little more overhead. I think 30's to be too much.

ok, just going by DDD2000, and ASSUMING I'm entering all this right (I dont think I am) with above figures (doesnt give me garret t3 option, I chose custom).

This is on a STOCK engine, no other add ons.

2.8:
stock 135/160
turbo 191/221
Increase 56/61


3.1:
stock 140/180
turbo 185/241
Increase 45/61

3.4:
stock 160/200
turbo 215/262
Increase 55/62

Dowards engine should be at 241hp/237tq. It says the mtc5 helped quite a bit on hp, but took away 5tq vs stock cam.

It claims it would take my engine from 202/245 to 226/276

For Doward: My setup will be the goofy over-axle configuration...possibly. I have recently run into some finacial issues....project may have to go on a back burner . Plumbing it to run in the engine bay wil be kinda tricky for me...I run longtube headers, they're WELDED in....I suppose I could fab some sort of "U" turn to run to the turbine...I dunno. Either way it'll be a while.

all i can say is sweet....ill be waiting for you to finish the 3.1 kit, gives me time to save money after the engine build....do you think there will be a seperate by in for those of us waiting on that? im going to be running a pretty built 3.4 by xmas =)

Yes, I'll probably be running a 2nd buy in at that time... now, for any of the 3.1 guys that have already purchased the turbo kit, with the FMU instead, I will be offering just the computer upgrade + injectors for them

rofl - 241 hp? I wish. I think I'm closer to 215. Either way - a HUGE step from 135!

just telling you what the machine says.

Are you still running 10* on timing?

btw, thats useing the supersix ported head flow numbers, mtc5 cam, and custom turbo using numbers listed.

Ahh... Actually, I'm set @ 12 initial. But it turns out, my chip stock in the ECU, was set at 12!

Sure is, so change KREFANGLE from 60 deg to 10 deg and reset the min/max SA and your done. Even better is that the $8F code uses a vacuum EGR, so folks get to save some dough there. No replacing an expensive digital EGR.

If I were to go the boost route I would run the $8F code. As I mentioned previously it is designed and tuned for a 3.1 running boost. And passes '89-'90 Federal car emissions.

FWIW there are folks running the $58 code with both CnP and DIS setups. The $58 code was never used as such from the factory. GM code is a lot more versatile then people realize.

RBob.

Rbob, that sounds good. I'll get to work on the $8F code ASAP, but I'll still need a 90-92 3.1 to try it on.

TC3, I know you're in longwood, but that's a ways out... I know a friend, Am91_Camaro, is in Tampa, and we actually meet up pretty often. Perhaps could use his as a test... I really need someone local, though, here in Ocala. : /

I dont think you need to be slapping a turbo on am91's 11:1 compression engine

lol, no, but the $8F should run on there anyway, right?

:shrug: If I understood all that ecm lingo, I would be making my own chip rather then having you make one

rofl -that's ok. Always fun to help someone out

Any suggestions at all on the kits?

no turbo for me?? lol...j/k. i'd love it if it'd stay together but i question boost on the compression that i have! we should be able to try the $8F on my car. just keep the timing kinda low and we'll make sure that everything else works. hmm....we could go ahead and tune a chip for my motor and set it up for boost....... :lala:

No mention of the wire adapter needed to wire in that 3wire heated o2. Since your covering all grounds, I assume thats included though.

Parts list, diagram, of how to make the adjustable pressure thingie. But with a big fat warning, a stock engine, and the ecm programing isnt set for additonal boost.


I could say you have a 91 3.4 waiting for one, but funds are REALLY low And if my dyno program is right, I've already hit my goal, on stock cam. I dont think its right.

Just run 5 psi and some c16 :hail: You'd leave the line hard and pull hard all the way to the traps.

FBod, I have to admit, this is one heck of an idea! Yes, I am giving it the

Just enjoyed your response (other then the fact that it just may work. . . well, for a while <g>).

RBob.

Hey Doward, How much for just the sticker for the back of the car reading "V6 Turbo"- I think thats the only part that is CARB legal here in Calif

that would be cool...get some emblems made to replace the "RS" on the back bumper that say "TURBO" or something.

Dean, you need to get out of CA! LOL...that's one reason i could never live there, i wouldn't own a car that'd pass smog checks! who doesn't like a little black smoke out the tailpipes??

Uh....you better watch out for the tree hugges after making a comment like that....lmao

Only on the '76 and later street cars. Pre '75 cars and full race cars are perfectly legal to own and spew. I have few of them also. Beside, you can always do things like this for fun (Just posted this on another local forum, you don't always need to own the car)- about thrid post down- picture
http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=265131