be4u, definately sounding like your learning about cars. The thought that the words mustang and grand national came up in the same sentence almost scares me. Stock for Stock a 5.0 mustang isn't necessarily a fast car, definately quick, but they weren't fast. A late model mustang isn't exactly a fast car either, they're respectably quick but they weren't fast either. When it comes to late model v8 camaros and firebirds, they were fast. LT1 and LS1 are engine codes ( identifiers by the manufacturers) the LS1 is in the newer firebirds/maros w/ v8's and have 305-350 horsepower depending on year and model, Lt1's are in the mid year firebirds 93-97 v8 cars, and were 275 horsepower. Your lil six isn't going to get you as fast as a grandnational, w/o lots of money. your dream of not buying a new motor would be shot when you actually decide to beat the GN, as you're going to need a new engine, or you're going to need to build yours. Think a complete rebuild on your motor, using all forged components. Then slapping on dowards turbo kit, and bumping it to 25 psi of boost (doward get-r-dun!!!) and after all is said and done, i'd spray it for goot measure. When the build is finished, expect to be able to hammer it for about 10 runs, then tear it down and rebuild it agian. lol...not cost effective. But, it'd get you the chix while you were king of the lot for that full week.

LMAO

oh yeh, and make sure the guy really has a grand national. Like it was stated earlier, he might just have a clone, or beter yet a monte- SS. If that's the case, and it's for the most part stock, go race him, if you lose it won't be that bad, if you win, i guess you're king of the lot. If he does have the GN, keep dreamin. Check out Ebaymotors for GN's they ain't cheap. A cheaper alternative was the t-type, not quite as "desrieable" as the GN, but defainately a runner. And if you had tons of dough, and want the best of the best , get the turbo trans am TT/A. 1989, and that boy will spank up on a mustang or GN, plus you'll be dustin vettes while your at it.

man, if you go out and buy a grand national yourself, you'll look like the biggest poser in the world. No matter what you own, your gonna get yourself in trouble with the amount of trash talk you do. You need to go out and buy some books and mags to teach yourself some stuff, and if you are still so cocky, your better off buying some civic. And if you want to trash third-gens, then you should just leave before you really piss someone off.

Sorry I was in such a bad mood last night. I'm just dissapointed. Dont think that because I'm upset my car wont ever be fast (without alot of money) that I'm going to wreck her. I'm trying to be proud and some of ya , i feel, are picking on me because i'm new to hotrods and dont have the fast modifications like they do. I kinda feel like I'm at work.

I was going to tell y'all why the guy wont let anyone see under the hood a couple of days ago. He says it's stock but no-one believes him. We think he's lying. It's only obvious. I think it's a real Gnat. Thats what everyone says and no one ever said he was lying about that.

I cant buy a gnat yet. Maybe by the end of the summer. Tonight I'm going to do some research. I heard that TTA's were slow. Didnt Burt Renalds drive one in that old movie? What do you have to do to make them fast? Must be easy huh? What year was that car? How much are they selling for?

Gumby, I'm a newcommer, yes. Dont pick on me because of that. Funny Bunny? That dont make sense unless your a homo. I cant believe your against me. Stay out of my forum please, you have nothing to offer me.

TomP, how can a V6 bet a V8? I just want to beat V6 cars. You got me wanting to research Gnats. I cant believe there all that. Big, heavy family car with no aerodynamics. It's ugly too. Dont get me wrong, they may be bad *** but I just dont understand it. I dont know about the seats...thats how the car came. Are you sure about the spoiler? The guy was all excited when he was telling me about it. I totally believed him. I'll take a better pic if you want me to.

The headlights were unplugged. I plugged them in and there is no movement when I turn them on. I think there dead. I wish it was only a $20 fix. I can afford that right now. Where can I get new motors really cheap? I think I saw new ones for $80. waaay to much for me. I think I'm going to fix it and sell it. Whats it worth? 138000 miles.

Project: 85 2.8 bird, sorry, I thought you ment fastest of all cars from the factory...I didnt know you were only talking about firebirds.

V8 Slayer, Could I buy a LS1 for less than $3000?

85f-bird, thanks for the info. I gotta find out about the tta's. DO you have anymore info?

Yanno, I'd have hoped you guys would have better things to say than "sell your car and buy a civic/v8/etc", but since you're all as horrible as the V8 guys who used to come trolling through here, this thread is officially being euthanized. Half of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

I'm gonna be keeping an eye on this thread... let's see if anyone can offer better ideas.

Well, I'm gonna go back and read the other posts here, but in the mean time...


Be4u, trust me on this, the first thing you'll want to do is simply get your car in the best tune possible. Do TomP's tuneup, and get a new timing chain in there. I'd recommend starting with a custom CAI. If you can find a set of 2.8 heads/intake for dirt cheap (like $50) get those - work on porting them out, and rebuilding them. When the time is right, put yourself a new camshaft in, with the fresh, ported heads/intake you have.

A mandrel bent exhaust will also do wonders for you. We're lucky - our bottom ends are rated FROM GM for 7000rpm runs. The problem is, the intake/cam/exhaust all work together, to prevent us from building power up there. A decent sized camshaft (say, 220/230 @ .050, with .480/.490" lift, then coupled with 1.6 roller rockers) and a new tune (where are you located? I'd be happy to help you burn a new chip!) would do absolute wonders for power output.

AM91's Camaro is a 3.1L, with a 218/224 (right?) camshaft and ZERO TUNING. He's knocking on 14s!! He's got headers, mandrel exhaust, CAI, roller rockers, and a cam. In all honesty, he IS running 10.75:1 (or so) compression, but I know I could get his same power output from a 9:1 cr motor, or even a 8.5:1 compression motor (the stock 3.1's one weakness - low compression - is GREAT when it comes to turbo/supercharging)

I'm certain he'll see a good .3-.5 drop in 1/4 mile times, when I get my hands on that ecu

Cliff Notes:
Tune up what you have
Intake/heads/exhaust/cam (In all honesty guys, you could, if you shopped around, get all of this done for under $500)
Tune tune tune, and practice practice practice. I've killed L98s at the track, when I was N/A, simply because they couldn't drive.

Also, run a compression test on your motor, to get an idea of how strong it is currently.


*EDIT*

*rant*

W.... T.... F..... ?

A guy comes into the V6 forums on TGO.. Long story short - "Guy at work has a GN, and since it's fast, he think's he's ***'s Gift. I want to take him down, here's what I have - "

And the bashing commences. Guys and Gals, I can take a freaking GEO METRO AND WIPE THE FLOOR WITH GRAND NATIONALS. There is ALWAYS someone faster!

Everyone outside (well, I used to think outside) these forums bash on the V6 as slow, crappy, sucky, *insert negative here*.

Dean's done a DAMN good job of showing how to exploit the strengths of the V6. I've already proven that the V6 can handle the beating of 10 PSI OF BOOST SHOVED DOWN ITS THROAT.

The motors are anchors from the factory. GM rated the bottom end to 7000rpm - has anyone here ever built the V6 to run 7000rpm, and build power there?

I can't believe some of what I'm hearing. We're not claiming to OMG WE ARE TEH FASTEST!!!!!!!!111111111 We're supposed to be here, to try to work toward making these motors faster, better, stronger.

Or am I completely off in what I thought this forum community was here for? */rant*

Now. The best of the Grand Nationals run a 14.23 @ 98mph, stock. Hey, trapping at 98mph? Who else is doing that? (aka, building the same power)

Do you see what you have to do, Be4u? Do a tuneup, run a compression test - if your motor is healthy, get to a track - you should be doing (providing you can launch a manual - no easy task ) a 16.5-16.7

You've got to drop 2.5 full seconds, to be where they were off the showroom.

Cam, ported heads/intake, headers, mandrel exhaust, and tuning - if you can hook up good, I can see a 3.1/T5 running a solid 14.7-14.9 - That's 5.0 GT territory, right there.

The problem is, there isn't much to do, after the cam/heads/intake/exhaust. So you'll still need a 75hp shot of nitrous, or a turbo/supercharger on top to get in front of that Grand National.

Doward, I'm still waiting on my chip

I also have a set of heads setting on the floor that I would really like to get heavly ported. Then slap them on with that mtc cam.

What else do you want us to recommend to the guy?

He said he does not have much money so obviously he cant go out and buy Heads/Exhausts/Cams........

what's the going price of a flowmaster catback now? i'd be thinking 150-200 bux, that's not overly expensive if you're working (which he is). Heads can be had off ebay for dirt cheap, would 3.4L heads work? Seen them on ebay all the time, along w/ 2.8L and 3.1L heads, normally well under a hundred bux, say 25-50 (who wants these things but us, lol) and then i'd say cam for 150 bux and he's done. Doesn't have to buy everything right now, if he bought the heads and started messing around w/ porting them himself, and polishing em up, he'd be getting stuff done and saving money. If he sent them out, expect another 150 for a decent porting job.

I'm sure doward would be willing to help w/ a turbo setup (teachin him) and if he gets hismelf around cars enough, his fabrication skills will definatley improve, and he might get to a point that with a coach he could build a turbo system such as dow and techsmurf have done. Camshafts all he has to do is ask, and he'll get advice to which one will let him breath at 7000rpm. And openign a jegs will get him exhuast, just depends on his choice of flowmaster (loud) and dynomax (not so loud, but apparently nice - still haven't heard one)

You could also get the ASP Underdrive pulley set

People say it works!

www.aspracing.com

I wouldn't do the underdrive pullies, until you are ready for those 7000rpm blasts, myself

Dale, your chip is still sitting here next to me But I'm not sending it over to you, until I get my hands into AM91s setup - that way I get a 'hands on' feel of what will do what

Yep, it was said - take $200, get you a set of used heads to rebuild, and work on scoring a Dynomax catback

The solution to all of your troubles!!!

Would reworked heads and a dynomax catback let him beat the GN?

hell no, but having them will help him on his way. If he plans to beat the grand national (which may be a stock GN) he's gonna need that stuff to get started. I'd say, ported heads, cam, ported intake, headers w/ a turbo setup and he'll be takin him down. Just pray he doesn't modify his motor, cause if he ups his turbo, say hello to him going into the 10's.

All this stuff will cost ALOT in the longrun.

We need to find out exactly how much we would like to spend.If its a grand or so i'd say
1.K&N Filter
2.Dynomax Catback
3.Underdrive Pulleys
4.Headers/High Flow Cat

Theres always free mods..Ditching AC/Smog Pump , CAT Removal , Weight Reduction , Throttle Body Bypass.

DOWARD, Thank you! Thats what I'm looking for. Help to go fast. I'm glad people were talking bad about my car. I learned that it wont be as fast as I want it. It sucks to hear that but I bought the car so I have to deal with it.

How do I get a compression test? Is it expensive?

This may sound like white trash, but could I take a drill to the pipe right befor the catalitic converter? Maybe one half inch hole? I want the car louder and this would help the exhaust too huh?

85 firebird, For now, instead of buying the catback could I drill the hole? Or am I thinking crazy?

What kinda heads would I buy? I want to learn porting and polishing.

V8 Slayer, how do I Ditch AC/Smog Pump?

I think his car has a bigger turbo. He dont go to the race track so no one knows how fast it is. Like I said, it's a big secret. No one can beat him, even the jerk who has a newer firebird who has spent every cent he makes on his car loses to the Gnat.

I'm going to make this v6 as fast as I can...I'm also going to save and try to buy a v6 tta. I have to go to the bank and "build credit" for about a year. Then watch out!!!

don't forget weight reduction then.

don't go drilling holes, if you're going to do something ya gotta do it right. Buy the catback system, it'll make the car "louder" and no one will call u white trashy because of it. Cutting a whole will make it louder, but, it's gonna sound kinda crappy, infact, pretty damn crappy, loud like you've got rusted through exhaust.

You can buy a compression tester at autozone or advanced auto, or oriley (what ever auto supplier you have) they plug into the spark plug hole and you simply crank over the motor. The highest compression ready will be stored in the tester, you read the number (it's in PSI) and you're done. Constiancy is more important than the actual number, at the same time i've seen dead cylinders on cars (1950 buick) the majority were very consistent, a little to consistent fr me. lol. I'd expect 150 psi on your cyilinders, report back to us when you get that done.

Headers will cost you a few bux, pacesetter finally has a set out for our cars thanks to Ked85 who lobbied for the v6 community.

and i can't remember if osmeone said this or not to you, the TTA we're talking about is the 1989 version, not the early 80's second gen trans am that was in the second smokey and the bandit, those were turbo v8's , think 301 ci. The v6 version has the grand national engine w/ the intercooler, and they are the fastest thirdgen ever built , fastest firebird ever also, until the latest LS1's came out.

Buy the Delete Pulleys,There is a Thread about this on the FAQ board.You can free up a good amount of horsepower by getting rid of AC and Smog pumps.Mostly from parasitic drag but also from weight removal.

Correct, the '80-'81 Turbo 301 is a joke - stay away from it (unless you are prepared for SEVERE modifications!)

As far as what you have, do this -

$75 - set of 2.8/3.1/3.4 (whatever you can get for $75 ) FUEL INJECTED heads + 2.8 or 3.1 intake/plenum

Rebuild/port the heads, intake. Gasket match EVERYTHING. Smooth all the turns, everything you can. Rebuild with new seals/springs (like $50)

$160 - Now get a Dynomax Catback exhaust

If you can save, say... $50/wk, in 1.5 months you can get everything I just listed. That's approx $300 you've spent there, and you will have a nice increase over stock - I could see low 16s there.

Now go with the PaceSetter headers + Y pipe ($225?)

Now, if you want a radical combo, you go with something like so - Crane PowerMax F-228/3067-2-12 - that will run you close to $300, but OMG. 248/258 @ .050, MECHANICAL cam - .500/.520" lift with 1.6 roller rockers = OMFG AWESOME UPPER END POWER!

lol.

You can do a lot with these motors.

Well that $500 Doward listed can double if you cant install a Cam or Exhaust yourself.Labor costs kill people with little expertise like me.

With 138,000 Miles I would spend like $300 just to get it running great.Complete Tuneup , Fresh fluids everywhere , New timing chain etc...

a lot of things depend on your ability as a mechanic, if you've never held a wrench, you're probably not going to be putting on the exhaust system much less doing the cam swap. When i got my exhuast setup, it cost me 20 bux for the install (made some buddies) More recently, i've done most of the exhaust stuff myself, it isn't that big of a deal, but having a lift can help.

The same is true with about anything, half of the battle is having the tools to do the job, a third of the job is being able to read and follow directions from your manual, and another third of your job is actually having experience to "solve" the problems that come up.

Be4u, Do TomP's tuneup first, do a search and you'll find it. That tune up will do a really nice job of introducing you to cars and engines (as i don't hink you're very well versed in them). I'd definately look up and do his tuneup as it'll make your car run 100 times better than it's running right now, and it'll get you a tad bit of experience working around these engines.

Oh by the way,about the pictures you posted.

The only useful mods of those pics is the Dynomax catback.Chips are useless unless you get them custom made.Thermostats are also useless unless you have a highly modified engine.Plus they dont really increase power.

Thats alright, I need to give it a new tuneup anyway. Then I should beable to get a better feel when I drop it in. Just keep me up to date if you dont mind. Remember, I got the switchable setup too

Wow... 1/2 + 2/3 = 7/6 How'd you end up with 1/6 more?

(Just ribbing ya, I know what you meant!!)

This kid probably got rid of this car already while were still trying to convince to keep it and modify it...

No, I still got it. I'm also going to keep it. I've been checking in. I havent even tried touching the car...I'm busy as hell. Damn GT4 is taking up alot of my time. I suck though.

The extra 1/6 is the part of the job you don't discover until you're in the middle of the job and can't turn back.

I agree to that!!! Kinda like my trans swap

damn i feel sorry for this kid, he wants to run with a grand national...its not gona be cheap to run with him , learn to love your v6! , i sure do (except for when i drove an iroc one time but thats another story)

dow, my calc teacher would kill me. lol...

so would those folks who got me through college trig, and alg. lol, and i'm sure gradeschool and hs teachers would be whoopin up on me too.

You have now screwed yourself if ever attenpting to run for a polictical office in your future. That fuzzy math equation will haunt you

Hmmm...

Yeah that V6 will never, ever (unless you have deeeeeep pockets) run with a GN. GN's are nice cars. Even I would have trouble with a mildly modded one, but I would walk all over a stock one.

If you want to compete, get a turbo and some N20, then rebuild your motor to handle it.

Now, you say you want some womens with this car eh? Okay, THIS you can do. And what really matters as long as you have a hot chick there right next to you, eh?

Paint it, get a nice stripe kit, redo the exterior, get a nice cat-back so that it sounds good and cruise with it. Women will like it. Women love stripes... See:



Hey.. that looks like my car!

I would like to disagree with this. If you have a lower temp thermostat (and the fan switch to go with it) you will retain some of that cooler temp power you have when you fire it up in the morning (at least that's the way it would be for my car).

What about the high end speeds? A long distance run? Race 30 miles not a 1/4 mile.

Are you asking for a comparison of a V6 Firebird and a GN?

hes gona beat you no matter what, even if u have him race with 3 fat chicks in the car , 30 mile race? ah man no comment

Does this extended race have corners? How does a GN handle?

think the bird could be made to outspeed the GN in the long haul, but it'd take some work. Can't remember an actual top speed, but i want to say it was around 160-170 for the TTA. The GN had a restriction from aerodynamics. YOu'd ask why aerodynamics don't play a roll in the 1/4 mile, and that's basically because it makes no difference until you get to roughly 50-60 mph. And, by that point, the GN had you already, so his being less aerodynamic doesn't make much difference. However, in a top speed run, your smaller coeffecient of drag can allow you to achieve a higher speed than the GN. However, you still have a huge power disadvantage to overcome, once you get past that, you'd have a good shot.

If it comes to corners, i don't see you having any problems, just pray it doesnt end with a straight away. lol.

Is there a final answer to what kind of heads that I need to buy? Where can I get info on how to port and polish me heads and intake?

do a search on the boards, hsouldn't be hard to find info on how to do a port and polish, as it's been done time and time again. Look for 2.8L v6 heads , 3.1L v6 heads, or even 3.4L v6 heads, as i don't think there are any differences (someone correct me if i'm wrong) you'll need the iron heads, not the alluminum ones, as the alluminum ones are for front wheel drive cars, and won't work with your rear wheel drive setup. So, get rear wheel drive iron chevy 2.8-3.4 L heads. Also, make sure that if the heads are from a 2.8L, that they're 1985 or later, as those are the fuel injected (H.O.) heads, which came w/ larger valves.

How much are you going to spend?

Thanks for the info 85f-bird

V8 Slayer, I dont know yet...I'm going to watch ebay to get a price idea. I might buy some in the next month or so.

We cant really tell you what to buy if you dont tell us a budget.

make sure they are not front wheel drive heads as they wont fit

Dang, there different prices huh? It's hard to say my budget...sometimes I have to pay my parents rent sometimes I dont. I'm thinking $150-$200.

are ther any junk yards near you?

its good experience and saves money to go in there and remove some stuff yourself.

Can you install an exhaust system yourself?
How about a pulley or a set of pulleys?