how do i change my freggin signature on here?

So you were there for the dyno runs RT? Funny but I don't recall seeing you there. For your infomation, that car sat on the dyno for hours as we did run after $$$ run trying different chips and timming combos etc. It was so warmed up we had to keep an external fan blasting into radiator. And you could still put your hand on the intake without getting burned. As for the OEMs using cast aluminium, well they can afford to since they'll sell thousands of the them. Same goes for after market intakes like the ones for SBC and SBF engines etc, they sell a lot of them. The 90V is an old engine that no one will ever sell enough intakes for to recoop the cost of doing them in aluminium. Do everyone a favor, and not quote info like you were there when you were not. We went way out a limb both time-wise and money-wise to develope these intakes, if we could make them cheaper we would. Next time you find someone making something new to improve these neglected engines, by all means complain as much as you want, and make false statements as they will also appreciate it.
The one thing that helps when reading such remarks is the fact that the intakes work great, exceeding what the Fiero crowd had hoped for and they know it.

Just one thing on this heat issue, it not an issue. Just ask any of the Fiero guys using them. I have 9-1 pistons and a turbo with one of our intakes and I don't have any detonation problems because they don't get that hot!
Do look at the dyno chart on trueleo.com for power gains. That otherwise stock 3.4 got a 15% increase in power and was making good power all the way 6,500 rpm when it hit where we set the rev limit. When you read a dyno chart the thing to look at is the area between what was and what is now, not just peek output. Some cal it the below the graph gains and we have achive a heck of lot in that area. Also, I'm not the only one using it with a turbo or very modified high comp engine without problems.

Frances please realise, that while some of us are pointing out an issue we feel may or may not hinder performance, no one is bashing the time and effort you have put into designing these intakes, they look very well designed, and i'm sure everyone on the boards and the 60* V6 community would like to thank you for doing these.

.

Well, PLEASE don't take this wrong - it's just ONE MAN'S MEAGER OPINION!!!

That said...

Those look like simple 1.5" mandrel bends. I pulled one of mine out, and have visually compared them, and if they AREN'T what you are using, you need to be. 6 of them from Summit for $95, shipped.

Squaring the ends of the pipes, I can do with my vice, and my homebuilt reverse jawed pliers.

The plenum? Some 5" round steel tubing, approx 10-10.5" long. I can get a 10' stick of it, for $15. That's $1.50 per plenum.

The flange I can have CNC'd for $65. The hose barbs? Another $3. The 2.5" pipe coming off the 'plenum'? $20. The flange for the TB? Easily made in my shop, from 3/8ths steel, for $10.

The plenum ends, and throttle bracket? $15 in leftover 3/16th" metal.

That's under $150 total, to build it, unless you are farming out the welding labor. $450 for coating? I dunno, guys.......

Just one man's opinion. I've tried to stay quiet about it all, but figured I'd pipe up.

Also... using steel for an intake, is equivalent to using PVC for intake ducting. Does it work? Absolutely. Is it the best to use? No friggen' way.

I'll let Francis address the cost issues associated with his intake, which he has explained to me in detail...his explanation sounded reasonable enough. I have decent fabrication skills, but personally I wouldn't be willing to produce something similar for anywhere near what he is charging.

Doward, no offense intended, but your breakdown of the cost sounds similar to the reaction of some to your turbo kits, which I also thought was unfair. " I can build my own turbo headers for $20 and use xxx from a junkyard and this and that off Ebay and build a turbo kit WAYYY cheaper than you are charging", and stuff of that nature. As was the case with your turbo kit, Trueleo isn't going to be buying a new vacation home with the proceeds. I believe that anyone who brings a product to market is entitled to a fair markup, and I think in both cases the markup is fair, and frankly no where near the profit margins enjoyed by larger companies. I'm just glad people are willing to go to these efforts to make new parts for us.
Also, as far as working vs "best to use", its sort of like deciding what materials to use on your turbo kits. Mild steel or 304 SS will work, but 321 SS is "the best to use". Can many people here afford for you to build your kit with nothing but 321? No. It would add probably $1200 or more to the cost. They couldn't afford an aluminum intake either...if they could, Hogan's would be glad to build them one for $2500 or so.

I have to disagree... this isn't me talking about going to a boneyard, and building an intake that is 'close' to what he has built, for cheap - I'm talking all brand new parts, building the exact same thing, with what I firmly believe to be the exact same materials.

My turbo kits are all brand new piping, freshly coated, brand new turbochargers with warranties, brand new injectors (not some junkyard injectors sent to Rich), brand new MAF, and all. Can someone go to a junkyard, and build 80% of the kit themselves? Absolutely.

And unlike a LOT of people/companies, I'm perfectly willing to share that last 20% with the person building the kit.

They only look cheap to make. The mandrils are not avaiable from Summit or anyone else. We had to pay for the tooling to get those tight radius made and had to buy a hell of a lot pipes to keep the cost down and make the tooling cost worth it. The same can also be said to some degree for the base flanges only there we also had a hefty charge for setup and again had to buy a lot to offset those cost. Good luck trying to make the round to retangle adapters in a vise. We had to buy a hydrolic press and even with that, they're tricky to make. All of the above also does not take into account the many prototypes we built and tested, hours and hours of costly dyno and flow bench time etc, etc. You're also looking at about a year of developement time and more money than spent than we even want to thing about. Consider this; everyone has known for years that intakes for these engines just don't flow. Even when they were still making them, nobody made an after market intake for use with FI because they are so darn complicated and costly build, they only look simple. If it is so easy to make one at home, why haven't you seen any. I'm doubting your fabrication skills, but there's a heck of lot involved in making them and not about to list every particular that cost us lots to determine.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but you do not have any flow numbers or dyno results on your page with this intake for the f- body, no one here is saying it doesn't take alot of work, but for what your asking i doubt you'll sell more then 3 or 4 tops especially since they are made out of steel.

I was fully prepared to shell out 600$ for a better flowing aluminum intake, it might be expensive but its one of the only options out there. $600 for steel, suddenly less flow seems to be a bit more appealing

no offense intended just an opinion

I can't resist not posting again.

Please don't lie to us about nobody selling aluminum mandrels. They are readily availiable. Heck, these guys are about 10mins from me. http://www.burnsstainless.com/Alumin...bends6061.html

If you can press the hard steel tubing into squared port transistions, then this aluminum ought to be a cinch (pun intended)

All you need now is a TIG and mill those flanges out of T6061.

Then I will buy one for $600

I would just wait and buy one from amcamaro. Im pretty sure his is aluminum and he has a car to make sure it works properly and can tell u about gains. Also he is making throttle bodies too, im gonna wait and buy one from him.

thanks greenbird. yes, mine is aluminum. i have several hundred miles on mine now. We are still trying to work out a minor idle issue with the throttle body. I don't think its a major problem, just needs a little time put into it. however, it is on the car and driven nearly every day.

kretos
Most likely we will not be doing dyno runs and flow bench testing ourselves (though we have a customer that will) on the f-body intakes and the reason is simple. The one for the Fiero has to deal with the distributor being in the way and thus the runner between the TB and plenium makes a couple of turns. The f-bod don't have that obstruction in the way and will be much more of a direct into the plenium setup and thus, if anything, they should flow even better. It just don't make sense to spend money to prove something so obvious. Testing exspenses have to be factored into the pricing too. If you really want to know about the intakes and how great they work, don't just take our word for it, go to pennock's fiero forum and ask the people that have them for input. We have yet to hear of any unsatified customer and get most of our sales through 'word of mouth' accolades.

Well basically I think everyone here needs to wait till I get mine on and do some testing. See what we see on the dyno as well as what we see on the heat issue. And I have read alot of the threads on the fiero forum and have not seen anyone discuss heatsoak problems in regard to this intake!

personally i agree with shannon on this one, i don't think that we (shannon on raif and me on baby blue) will see any kind of heatsoak that you guys are talking about. personally i think that we'll see better numbers than what everyone else's been able to get with the intakes including alans(due to not having the full thing done down to the base). only time will tell, shannon and i have chosen to be the test subjects on this matter, let's see what kind of numbers the intakes get us before we make any kind of decissions about the product.

shaun, you going to test yours on your car, stock? i want to see those numbers on it.

yea no problem alan, all i can get is track numbers right now, but i will get them to you, if you want and you can get the stock manifold on yours again, i will throw that one on my car for a run or 2 and see what kind of numbers yours turns compared to his. i don't care, we can use my car for baseline numbers, but to keep it fair, i got to wait atleast a hour after running one intake til i run the other so the engine is about the same temp. my car has a problem where the third run is always the fastest and after that, they go down hill fast, but if i give it about a half hour to cool off, it turns in some pretty consistant times.

i got a guy closer over here that has agreed to let us use his car to test our manifold. its a stock 3.1...only has the new pacesetters on it.

okay well you know mine aint got nothing but the underdrive pulley and the plugwires and tires on it right now, but that is gonna change by the 15th thanks to a certain someone that sold me a set of longtube headers just like yours

Okay... One Fiero guy checking in.
I probably got the 2nd one of the Trueleo manifolds ever offered for public consumption. Matt (MoshMan on Pennocks) got the first one, and was, I believe, the second one (I believe the first one was Francis's 2.8 turbo) that all of the dyno tuning was performed on. The gains we saw were similar. His were a little bit better than mine since he's running through a 5 speed, while I'm running through a slushbox.
My gains were 15 HP peak. Of much greater importance, was the gain at 5200 RPM of 30 HP! (To be fair, I also added a pulley and 86'd the cat, but that wasn't gonna get me anywhere near 30 HP.)
My engine is an iron-head F-body 3.4. The Fiero intake plumbing is just marginal for a 2.8. It's really horrible when bolted to a 3.4. Previously, it was all done by 4500 RPM or so. Now it makes more power at 5200 than my previous peak reading at 3400(IIRC) RPM, and it's still pulling like a train at 6K. Before the manifold swap, anything past 4500 was just noise.

The heat soak issue is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. The plenum is *just about* touching the underside of my plastic deck lid. I haven't burned any holes through the panel, nor have I baked any paint off. Aside from that, have you ever been under the hood (or decklid) of a Fiero? It's like a freakin' oven! The air flow over the engine is all but non existant. If it hasn't had a detrimental effect on mine (and it hasn't), the F-bods should be fine.
Oh...No more detonation than with my old setup. (I set my timing by ear. I advance it until it rattles, then back it off until it doesn't. There isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the timing setting with either intake setup.)

As for actual flow numbers, one of the guys on Pennocks (Oreif is his username) calculated by the flow numbers that these intakes can move enough air to produce in excess of 300 HP, N/A. Not too shabby for an iron-head 60 degree V6.

Seat of the pants impressions? This thing runs so much better that it's not to be believed. It shrieks like a DOHC. (Of course, thats subjective, but I'll use it anyway. )
At one point I was considering selling this motor and doing a 3.4 DOHC or a 3800SC. I may still do one of those swaps, but it will be in my other Fiero. This engine is now doing just fine, thank you. This manifold makes it worth keeping around. Nobody else has done that, yet.

I posted several threads on Pennocks. An install thread, a dyno thread, as well as several comments in their development thread. I can post links to them if anyone is interested. I also have links to some vids of my dyno runs, but there is nothing meaningful to be gotten from them. Just a lot of noise coming from a strapped-down car.

In case anyone is wondering, I am not affiliated with Francis or Troy. I have never met or spoken with either of them, other than in a few emails. I just like this manifold. If I didn't think it was worthwhile, I wouldn't be here.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'm working strange hours all weekend (7PM to 7AM) but will answer when I can. Probably in the middle of the night.

well, Id like to introduce myself to the forum,

my name is matthew cantley, and im the first person to get one of these intakes installed on his car, It was my 3.4L car that was used for the dyno runs, and my motor is bone stock other than ported exhaust manifolds and 19# injectors.

when we dyno ran my car, the temps were around 190-220 the whole time, franks son troy was flogging my car, i tried to get him to keep it under 6000 RPM seeing that was the stock redline of the motor, but low and behold i goto the bathroom and while there i hear my car reving up much further than it had been previously, come back in and find he took it to 6500 RPM, and it was still making good power.

before my car was odd to drive when you felt the power cut off at 5200 RPM or so, now i take it upto 6000-6200 RPM daily, even took it to the 1/8th mile track and the FIRST RUN was better than any of my previous runs, and that was with me bogging off the line, and my clutch is now starting to get weak.

personally i love my intake, it does make the engine bay look alittle odd as you can see more of the wiring now, but im sure someone who can use wireloom can clean that up easily.

and frank said someone asked about heat from the steal intake.....

well yes i believe it is getting alittle hotter than the stock alloy intake was getting, but i dont see it as being a problem, on daily driving and just going around town/highway its probably the same, but when i took it to the track i noticed it was getting alittle hotter than it was previous, and the steel takes alittle longer to cool down

id say if the old intake got upto 115* or so, the new one probably gets to *130-135*

currently i have two 3.4L powered pontiac fiero's and 3 2.8L powered fiero's and a 3.4L DOHC project fiero (not completed yet)

if i could afford it, they'd all have a trueleo intake.

as far as the intake themselves, the onlything i wasnt happy with was the lack of a good mounting location for the MAP sensor.

if anyone has any questions please ask me, ill bookmark this thread, or you can email me at macantley@charter.net

i think i might have a couple pictures of my intake also (its white) and i dont recommend white as a color, it looks bad, frank will tell you the same.

matthew

Well get him to a dyno as he is then gat him back to the same one with your intake. Then we can clearly see the gains with only th intake changing.

Thats what Joe and I are doing for trueleo. We have a baseline run. May do some more before the intake gets here with new chips. Not sure. Or we may just put the stock chip back in. At least with it I knoweactly what the cars feels and performs like. Though personally I want to get the car running as close to right before we test the intake...feel that will give it the best chance to show what it can do! So we will see. Will let you guys know!

Right now I have a chip in that has cut my fuel down 20% amoungst other tweaks... I'm running 19lbs inj and the car has been running way rich before now. Though with the new chip I have noticed when I crank it up it does not want to idle cold. Have to play with the gas for about a minute for it to idle up and stay running on its own. Leads me to believe we have the fuel cut too low! Thoughts?

Wel the plan it to drive to the dyno and hook the car up immediately... (dyno 30-45 min from house depend on traffic...) then test with everything hot. Then ice everything down to cool it like you would at the track & see what happens!

I'd slow down a bit. Yes, take it to the dyno and use one that will give a wideband A/F readout. Send the dyno and A/F numbers to Troy and have him take a look. With your very modified engine, he may want to make changes to the chip and send you another. It may require another dyno run to confirm that everything is spot-on, afterwhich, you can take it to the track. We do have chips for verious states of engine mods and they have work quite well, however I think with that huge TB of yours, etc, the 'take a look and maybe make changes' is the wiser way to go to get most out of your setup.

Well we had the chips made by a local a few months back. He said worst case he will meet me one day to dial the car in on his lap top if these don't work...for no additional charge!

does anybody have any picz of this installed in there car im very curious on how this looks and runs

Mine's installed on a Fiero.

Edit - Obviously I haven't figured out how to post pics, yet.

Need to be a senior member before you can post pics. I'd do it but I'm in the same boat as you. Some one else can post them for you if you email the pics to them (volunteers?).

Al.

redraif is the only one of us camaro guys who has one yet, i am getting mine soon, but i don't think that anyone except teh fiero guys have them on the engines yet. they have great results with them as i understand, but who knows how our cars will perform with them on!

I just got mine the other day. I know I posted it in this thread... the darn computer has been having issues though and may not have connected properly!

It looks great and we plan to get it installed soon! Working on the Fiero to get it going. Will let you know how it goes

did you get the throttle cable problem solved yet, shannon?

i cant wait to see it. Almost makes me not want to swap in the v8 and keep my v6 to have that beautiful intake.

Err..well I wont go thaaat far.

i garuntee that that baby will look good under the hood and it will work better than stock too

Not yet... have not had enough free time to sit down with it yet. Joe was out of town this weekend! This weekend we should be able to get some significant work done on it and the fiero. Just stupid stuff on the fiero keep holding us up.

We were trying to get the fiero's brakes done... got the back to bleed fine, but the fronts will not bleed properly... not enough pressure. In fact we could spin the frt rotor with the brakes on. Rears are fine though! Was not sure if it was a prop valve or master. Tried a couple different used props to the same end. So we ordered a master. Parts store got us one, but it was the wrong reservior and master did not look quite right so we had to reorder. Got a bendix one this time. Master looks horrible...all beat up and scratched... I would figure they would have cleaened up the case like the do alternators before they resell them... the blasted res is so dark and yellowed I think I'm going to reuse mine. I don't trust the reman one. Looks like its about to crack! Still have the clutch to bleed...what a pain! Its got so much air in the system! We bled it for a few hours and still not petal!

thanks for the headsup with hydraulic clutches, shannon. i got to tackle mine(bleed) and install a new clutch this weekend along with the header install.

Hydraulic clutches on F-bodies are easy...on Fieros, they are a PITA! The line has to go all the way from the firewall to the rear of the car, and there are plenty of places for air to get trapped. We may wind up having to borrow a power bleeder to get the rest of it.

good, but knowing my car, it will still be a pita. it has the tendency to give me a hard time for even the easiest repairs.
when am i gonna get to see some pics of the intake on the car and all hooked up? ordering mine in 3 days!!!!!!!! can't wait to get it finally. that is just one more addon that i gots to mess with!

hey shaun, what are you going to do for exhaust off of the headers? also, if you're gonna have the engine out to install them...i always put the headers in the engine bay then get the motor in place then bolt them up. you might do it that way too...i don't know but that's the easiest way i've found.

yea alan that is what i been planning on doing. i have to drill out 4 manifold studs that were previously broke before i took the manifolds off. they are the hard ones to get to in the engine bay, the back ones on eithor side!
i wonder how long it will take advance auto to get my new gears in for the rearend? should shave almost .5 off my 1/8th shouldn't it?

well, you have a 3.42 now so going to the 3.73 isn't going to give you too terribly much. i would tell myself to expect about .2...if you get better, it'll only make you happier!

you planning to take the car to an exhaust shop to have pipes run?

Going to tackle the install this weekend! Going to dive into the Fiero the next few days and see what happens! MAybe we can get it going before the weekend!

Will get plenty of intake pics! Just have to get mom's computer back and reinstall the camara's software! (it crashed) Software works thru its printer (has built in camara chip reader), so no point installing it on mine since the printer is not here! Then there will be pics!

sounds good shannon.

Alan, i plan on installing the O2 bung, getting the headers on, and yes taking it to the shop for the exhaust work. i have bad luck with running exhaust myself. i got a feeling i am gonna have to run the oval tubing if i want the true dual side exit and a h pipe. i may even have to raise the car a tad for ground clearance over speed bumps, but i refuse to go any more than 1" well i was coupling the .5 gain with the gears and a good exhaust. i got a few restrictions right now that i won't have, so the engine will be making more horsies just by fixing that. i gotta get the gears, clutch and headers on before i worry about calling wells performance about the exhaust. i got to get in the phone book tonight and find out about anyone else that has a mandrel bender to do the pipes.
Alan does mid august sound good for those heads i was asking you about, also did you come up with how much yet?

I don't think that you'll have to run oval pipes because the muffler is 'taller' than the pipe will be anyways. most mufflers are 3"-4" thick...you're planning on 2.5" duals, right? you might see .5 with the exhaust and gears. but, the 2.5" duals will be kinda big for a 'stock' 2.8 so, you might hurt you're low end some, also. I'll PM you about the heads.

i agree that they will be too much for now, but when i am done, they will be just about right. i don't like doing things like 5 times, so i jsut do it for the end result and not short term results! i am picking up the flowmaster 50 series on payday they are like 80$ a piece at pep boys. i got to get the headers on and the h- pipe run before i send it to the exhaust shop. i may just say screw it and have them do the h- pipe. i found room for about 3" to route the exhaust to the sides infront of the tires. it took me about 3 hours and alot of measurement to figure out the routing. my next worry is to tackle how to keep the mufflers from hitting the underbody when the throttle is mashed. i think that i am gonna have to get them to mount the exhaust within a half inch of the floorboards, and just wedge hard rubber up there to minimize the impact. i'll figure it out.

If you can't find an exhaust shop with a mandrel bender (tough in most places), you can buy mandrel bends and weld them up. That is what was done on Redraif's exhaust, and it turned out great. As far as clearance for the mufflers (dual), I saw a TA at the nats last year that the guy had cut out and raised the floorpan under the rear seat area slightly so that his mufflers were tucked up nice (3" Flowmasters). I'm considering the same thing on my 87 TA, if I bother with mufflers at all. The turbos should quiet it down a lot without them.

i gotta get better ground clearance for under the gfx in prep for when i put them on in a couple of weeks before the paint goes on. if i had the time and all that to do that, i would, but i don't and i wanna keep the car's backbone intact.

I can't post pics here, but here is a link to my Trueleo install thread on the Fiero forum.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/059634.html

Note that mine was a very early production piece. The F bods won't have all the seams/welds anyway, as your distributor is not in the way, or is gone altogether.

I would just link the pics, but Cliff doesn't appreciate picture linking from his server.

Raydar...

You can do what I do... just threw up a Cardomain site to have a place to put your pictures and link to the pics there! Does not have to be structured or organized...use it as a database!

if i ever get a puter at my home (not my puter at mom's ) and a camera i plan on doing that!.

ill be waiting to test out alan's setup on my car. he wanted to try it out on a basically stock car and all i have is the pacesetters. hopefully it will fit ok on a 2.8.

i wonder if anyone has tried to make a one piece carbon fiber or fiberglass plenum using the stock two piece to make a wax mold. that might be interesting