V6Discussion and questions about the base carbureted or MPFI V6's and the rare SFI Turbo V6.
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opps my bad, anyways the crankshaft is also listed in that cataloge.
crower makes a bunch of nice stuff for the 60* engines
can i plz get a price and a full list of your turbo kit for a 3.1 1990 camaro rs i need everything......i want to hopefully make around 300 horsepower
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstfirebird
Yeah, Dave has them!!!!
i am new to this thread process how can i get a hold of dave directly.... can i get and email ?
Last edited by deerhunter1525; 02-26-2007 at 08:32 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
We all know that we can in some way shape or form find a 350 for cheap and push out a extreme amount of horepower. But were not talking about 350 were talking about 6s here. I have a 700HP 350 ready to go, i still want to run a 6. Faster response, able to produce a ungodly amount of torque for their size, and overall with work can be quicker.
Put down the crack and back up slowly…
No matter what, a properly tuned and matched up drivetrain based on a larger cubic inch engine will respond faster and make more torque. Lets say that 700hp 350 is NA… it doesn’t have to wait for the turbo to spool before it starts making torque, and if it’s a ‘charged v8… well it can do it with proportionatly smaller turbos so they will spool and respond faster.
Torque… torque is proportionate to cubic inches * density ratio. More simply put, you’ll be lucky to see the same torque out of your 2.8L with 20psi boost as you do out of a stock 350.
It can be quicker… mod for mod, no, it can’t. you’re still fighting the fact that you have fewer cubes to work with. Sure, I guess that if you want to compare a turbocharged V6 to a stock V8, at some point you’ll throw enough mods at that V6 to outrun the stock V8…
There is a point in building a turbocharged V6 car, but there is no “it makes more sence from a performance standpoint,” argument that will work. Maybe:
- it makes more sense within a specific rule set.
- it makes more sense for something intended to handle that needs some minimum hp to get around the track competitively
- it makes more sense for a daily driver (that’s a long stretch, you could argue that it would be as much fun with better mileage, but it’s not difficult to build a TBI V8 what is stupid fun, even at the track that gets highway mileage in the range of the V6 cars, and more importantly, even a mild turbocharged V6 making say 250 or 300hp is going to have more durablility and maintenance issues then your average, stupid, brutish V8…
Quote:
I just read an article about a new alminum block 4 cylinder that is trying to be entered into NHRA that produces 6x as much hp as the 8s alchol engine. and a 6 cylinder that can pound a FORD ... How fun.
People bring **** like this up with all sorts of situations… that FI should be allowed, that other drivetrain combinations should be allowed…. I’ve yet to see something like that get brought up without the idea that this different setup (4 banger + turbo), should be allowed to break the rest of the rules in the class to be competitive (for example, I don’t belive that there is an NHRA class that runs meth that allows turbos at all, or any blowers besides an old school roots design..)
Quote:
Anyways a stock 327 blows the pants off a 350 anyday
I guess I’m just hoping that a good part of what you’re writing is as a joke… in this case, 2 othewise “identical” engines… the one with the bigger cubes wins in almost every category.
well let me start by saying thanks dave i never had a clue how to install a turbo and now i getting ready too, i have about half of the parts from you list so far.
I have a question that i was hoping dave would be able to anwer though. I bought the NOS kit to fit my car, can i still use NOS with a turbo installed?
No matter what, a properly tuned and matched up drivetrain based on a larger cubic inch engine will respond faster and make more torque. Lets say that 700hp 350 is NA… it doesn’t have to wait for the turbo to spool before it starts making torque, and if it’s a ‘charged v8… well it can do it with proportionatly smaller turbos so they will spool and respond faster.
Torque… torque is proportionate to cubic inches * density ratio. More simply put, you’ll be lucky to see the same torque out of your 2.8L with 20psi boost as you do out of a stock 350.
It can be quicker… mod for mod, no, it can’t. you’re still fighting the fact that you have fewer cubes to work with. Sure, I guess that if you want to compare a turbocharged V6 to a stock V8, at some point you’ll throw enough mods at that V6 to outrun the stock V8…
There is a point in building a turbocharged V6 car, but there is no “it makes more sence from a performance standpoint,” argument that will work. Maybe:
- it makes more sense within a specific rule set.
- it makes more sense for something intended to handle that needs some minimum hp to get around the track competitively
- it makes more sense for a daily driver (that’s a long stretch, you could argue that it would be as much fun with better mileage, but it’s not difficult to build a TBI V8 what is stupid fun, even at the track that gets highway mileage in the range of the V6 cars, and more importantly, even a mild turbocharged V6 making say 250 or 300hp is going to have more durablility and maintenance issues then your average, stupid, brutish V8…
People bring **** like this up with all sorts of situations… that FI should be allowed, that other drivetrain combinations should be allowed…. I’ve yet to see something like that get brought up without the idea that this different setup (4 banger + turbo), should be allowed to break the rest of the rules in the class to be competitive (for example, I don’t belive that there is an NHRA class that runs meth that allows turbos at all, or any blowers besides an old school roots design..)
I guess I’m just hoping that a good part of what you’re writing is as a joke… in this case, 2 othewise “identical” engines… the one with the bigger cubes wins in almost every category.
not much larger then our 3.1/3.4 motors running a t70 turbo @ 18 psi,and our motors have better flowing heads Click here to see Video
well let me start by saying thanks dave i never had a clue how to install a turbo and now i getting ready too, i have about half of the parts from you list so far.
I have a question that i was hoping dave would be able to anwer though. I bought the NOS kit to fit my car, can i still use NOS with a turbo installed?
yes but only with a 25/35 shot and i only suggest using it to spool the turbo up,or use it with the turbo if u keep boost under 7psi.
not much larger then our 3.1/3.4 motors running a t70 turbo @ 18 psi,and our motors have better flowing heads Click here to see Video
click the img
btw hes now making 50+ more hp/tq
I must be missing your point… that’s great, so what… what’s the point?
I hate the whole “swap your 305 for a 350,” or “swap your v6 for a V8,” don’t waste your time argument, but the original statement that I was responding to was that a V6 will make more power then a V8… well take your example, swap that 3.x engine for a ~400cid small block with twin T70’s and feed it 18psi and you don’t think you’ll go faster (assuming that you don’t blow up the tranny/rear…)?
ive never said the v8 wont make more power.i was just responding to ur comment about the 6 banger not making much more tq then a stock v8,i dont know about u but 550 ftlbs from a lil v6 is pretty impressive,and much more then a stock 350.
i just think that ur not realizing the point,if i really wanted to go in the 9's/10's easy id have a v8 in my car,i have everything needed for the swap already including a forged 350 shortblock,some ppl like to do things differently and have to a uniqe combo.
everyone knows a v8 mod for mod will kill the 6,but not everyone wants a v8 either
Dave, you’re missing the point, I’m not arguing with you, we’re on the same page. I’m arguing with the earlier statement that the turboed 3.x will be more responsive and much quicker…
hey dave, maybe i missed it, but did you make a bracket for your turbo to mount to or are the pipes just kinda holding it in place there?
yeah actually i did, but its been sitting on my workbench since i installed the turbo.one of these days ill actually get around to installing it,along with the stainless heat shield i made for the turbine side lmao
Dave, you're missing the point, I'm not arguing with you, we're on the same page. I'm arguing with the earlier statement that the turboed 3.x will be more responsive and much quicker...
Crossfire, I think you might have taken that member's post way out of context. Either that, or that member obviously does not know what a 700 horsepower 350 feels like....
On a dyno, yes, cubic inches wins, no matter how you look at it. Cubic inches makes for torque, more cubic inches, more torque. More torque, more calculated horsepower. I don't think anybody can argue that...
However, in the real world (at the strip, and on the street), sometimes too much torque can be a freaking burden, especially off the line. Too many variables to consider when comparing. But it really all boils down to the power to weight factor (as well as gearing, tranny's gearing included)....
__________________ 1998 Trans Am: Mystic Blue w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Daily Driver.... 1990 Trans Am GTA: Black w/Black Leather, 5-Speed, T-Tops, Few Mods.... 1989 Trans Am TTA: White w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Garage Queen.... 1986 Chevy Camaro V6: Blue w/Black Cloth, Hardtop, Saved From The Crusher....
We live in a world where boosted V6's (and V4's, for that matter) are running in the nine's without even breaking a sweat. Big cubed engines have their place in racing, and are usually dominant at the dragstrip (prepped track, prepped cars, of course)...
Yes, that's a sledgehammer in my avatar. You know your cars. Even Lingenfelter once commented that that Calloway creation was impossible to hook up on the street, it simply had too much damn power. Top speed though, it would rape just about anything out there, probably still could....
__________________ 1998 Trans Am: Mystic Blue w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Daily Driver.... 1990 Trans Am GTA: Black w/Black Leather, 5-Speed, T-Tops, Few Mods.... 1989 Trans Am TTA: White w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Garage Queen.... 1986 Chevy Camaro V6: Blue w/Black Cloth, Hardtop, Saved From The Crusher....
hey i saw u down at english town and i have a 1991 camaro rs 3.1l about how much would it cost to put ur exact turbo kit in my car? do the sell kits or is it custom?
I am seriously considering turbo charging my 91 3.1 Camaro. I am very good at improvising I know a little bit about turbo charging engines. I have been reading alot and asking questions I believe I can pull it off. I don't want to go for all out power (I will kill myself if I do) I'm thinking of a mild build for now. The engine has 102k on it. I want to do another 3.4 swap like I did on my old Camaro But I'm not blessed with a fortune I want to do it a step at a time boost the 3.1 and run it till it blows and while I do that I can build a 3.4 to hopefully 200hp n/a and then boost it. Okay here is one of my questions for now. I have no Idea how to alter the computer so I can run it. I know on some other types of cars if they detect boost they go all crazy. At what amount of boost should I modify that? I know when I did the 2.8-3.4swap I just put the larger injectors in, it wasn't as efficient as I could of been but it worked. Would it be the same? If I run around 7-8psi could I get away with just larger injectors and leave the Computer alone.
hey i saw u down at english town and i have a 1991 camaro rs 3.1l about how much would it cost to put ur exact turbo kit in my car? do the sell kits or is it custom?
ill pm ya in a bit since ur local i can work out a decent price for the kit and install it.since its actually eaisier for me to build the setup on a car instead of on an engine stand. depending on the options u want i can prolly swing it for around 2,300-2,700 installed
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87CamaroMan
I am seriously considering turbo charging my 91 3.1 Camaro. I am very good at improvising I know a little bit about turbo charging engines. I have been reading alot and asking questions I believe I can pull it off. I don't want to go for all out power (I will kill myself if I do) I'm thinking of a mild build for now. The engine has 102k on it. I want to do another 3.4 swap like I did on my old Camaro But I'm not blessed with a fortune I want to do it a step at a time boost the 3.1 and run it till it blows and while I do that I can build a 3.4 to hopefully 200hp n/a and then boost it. Okay here is one of my questions for now. I have no Idea how to alter the computer so I can run it. I know on some other types of cars if they detect boost they go all crazy. At what amount of boost should I modify that? I know when I did the 2.8-3.4swap I just put the larger injectors in, it wasn't as efficient as I could of been but it worked. Would it be the same? If I run around 7-8psi could I get away with just larger injectors and leave the Computer alone.
and fmu is a secondary fuel preasure regulator that gets fitted into the cars return line from the fuel rail.it has one line that goes to the intake manifold to read vacum/boost.under vacum it does nothing.but under boost it increases fp to increase the mount of fuel injected into the motor.
they come in different ratio's
like 1 psi of fuel preasure per pound of boost.
or 2 psi fp per ps1 of boost
4 psi fp per psi of boost
etc
generally u can get them in ranges of 1-1 to 12-1.some are preset and u cannot change the ratio,and some are adjustable so u can adjust the amount of added fp per pound of boost
Okay so it like a rapid rising Fuel pressure regulator. I learned about thoes when I was going to turbo my neon. I decided to scrap that and buy another Camaro.
another option if ur comfortable with doing some wiring, would be a megasquirt system wired in as a piggy back system to control the fuel injectors.or u can hook it up to get rid of the stock ecm all together. then u can tune the car with ur laptop (fuel and spark/or just fuel if u run in in paggy back with the stock ecm).me and another member here both just bought assembled megasquirt 1 units for under 240$'s shipped
its not for everyone but is a very low cost standalone engine management system.
That would be optimal to do that but like I said I am not blesses with even a small fortune. I am selling off aftermarket parts from my other car so I can get this Camaro project on its way. Where can I look for a fmu and are they vehicle specific or will any one work. Can I just look on ebay. What is a decent brand. I was looking at this garret T3 turbo on ebay for about 200 shipped. Well I just read what you put in one of your earlier post and went from there.
just about any will work, most come with barbed fittings so u can just clamp rubber hoses on them.i highly recomend u dont do that.fuel presures can exced 100psi. what u can do is buy the adapter fittings so u can use braided an lines to connect the fmu to the return line from the fuel rail and the return line in the car. lil pricey but the cost is well worth the added safety.
at min go with a t04e turbo or a t61 max. no larger ar then .63 on the hot side otherwise the turbo will be laggy
beware if it has a blue or black tag.its no good.the ones with the blue and black tags are known to have problems
look in the poweradder section of the boards and look for a post labeled turbo 660 under way on the first or second page there is a pic of the one u want
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better yet heres a direct link http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4...94264636QQrdZ1
Last edited by daves12secV6; 03-22-2007 at 01:17 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
When installing a turbocharger, would it be wise to use aftermarket exhaust headers, or should i go with the stock manifolds (cost issues, and more easy build of the tubing)?
Is there any significant performance increase when using headers on the v6?
Dave, it appears you had a 2.5" y-pipe to begin with?
For those of you who are using the stock y, you might have to oval the pipe that goes from the y to the turbo (that's how I am going about it anyways).
As I was purchasing a computer for my 3.8Turbo GN Motor I was struck by a thought ... would a Buick Grand National Computer and Modified Wiring Harness work on a 60* 3.1/2.8 V6? something to make the turbo mod a little more simple if it works
Dave, where can I get a 6:1 fmu? So far the only one I've been able to find is a Vortech Engineering one that is $156 which seems pretty expensive to me.
ok guys since i ran my setup pretty hard for around 60k miles and just removed it,
i figure would now be a good time to go over the parts i used,since most are knockoff parts heres how they held up.
#1 xs power turbo
after removing this turbo i fully tore it down and inspected it
overall condition A-
minimal side to side play,and zero thrust play
the only thing i noticed that i didnt like was i had a lil bit of oil in the compressor and turbine sides/cold/hot. i belive this to be from when my pcv got stuck open forcing boost into the crankcase preasurizing the motor.
.anyways a quick cleanup and its ready to go back on the new motor
this turbo was also run in excess of 18 psi
#2 my knockoff tail wastegate
overall A+
this wastegate never gave me a problem and perform flawlessly
#3 volvo intercooler
overall B
it worked great
though over 12 psi it was a bit on the small side
#4 ebay boost controller
overall A-
also worked flawlessly
my only complaints are its a lil sensitve dosent take much of a adjustment to turn the boost way up.
and if u buy one get one with a plastic knob if ur gonna mount it under the hood, i burnt myself on the metal knob a few times
#5 ebay blow off valve x2
#1 first valve tcc work valve - looks like a turbo xs type h
overall D-
the spring is way to stiff even at the softest setting and even after cutting the spring down the valve would not open with 10 psi under 4,500 rpms
lots of compressor surge with this valve
this valve is meant for very high boost preasures
#2 ebay blitz dd knock off valve
overall A+
great sound like turbo xs rfl or real blitz valve
worked flawlessly , and was able to hanlde 22psi without leaking
#6 couplers and clamps
#1 ebay couplers u can get 2 kind on ebay
single ply silicone ones which are very cheap, they do work ok but seem to get hard after a while, and also donot work well in places like the tb connection were there is movement.
also these are prone to blowing off if not tightened down very tight
#2 ebay silicone connectors reinforced with fiberglass
overall A+
these work great generally 3-5$'s more exspensive then the above ones
no complaints
now comes the clamps that come with either the above couplers
Overall F
throw them away, if i had 10 of them on the car i broke 8 of them trying to get them tight enough so the couplers wouldnt slipp off .
get some high quality hose clamps form the local autoparts store, and even better clamp is a t-bolt clamp, the ones on ebay are fine
i think i covered everything so thats all for now,stay tuned for a howto installing twin turbos, and a howto on installing a megasquirt unit.
if u still need more info on the single kit check out firstfirebirds turbo 660 underway post in the power adder section.also has a great deal of excellent information,among a very clean install
Thanks for the compliment, just can't wait to get the engine fixed, lol.
Dave, when you had the problem when the boost spiked to 23psi for an unknown reason, did you diagnose it? I'm glad to see it wasn't the WG (if I read what I think I did).
Thanks for the compliment, just can't wait to get the engine fixed, lol.
Dave, when you had the problem when the boost spiked to 23psi for an unknown reason, did you diagnose it? I'm glad to see it wasn't the WG (if I read what I think I did).
yeah what i had thought was a stuck wastegate was nothing more then the boost line comming loose
ok i have a question for you i was the one who messaged you on youtube i have the 2.8 tuned port motor to do this turbo setup will i need new pistons and did you do port and polish basicallyt i would like to know what mods you have done all together as i am seriouesely looking into this project. one quick question about your exhaust is it just three of the cylinders powering your turbo or do you have both going into the turbo thanks for being helpful i really appreciate it
Last edited by brandon_mckay; 09-04-2007 at 04:57 PM.
Reason: misspelled
i got a few questions.. i am doing the turbo very soon, the turbo should be here this friday.. i have a few questions.. i own a 91 s-10 that DID have a 2.8L 5 speed.. well i swapped the motor out a few months ago to the 3.1L with my 5 speed bolted right up to it.. i used my intake off the 2.8L with the fuel system also.. i did install a new fuel pump while i did the swap to.. my questions are:
1. will my injectors be good enough to work? im going to be running a garret m24.. its made for low boost which is completely fine with me, i dont wanna start breakin things, i also dont have a heavy foot either..
2. will my fuel pump be good enough?
3. what will i have to do for the computer, if anything?
i know i have many more questions i just cant remember them right now.. ill be sure to post them when i do remember though.. i just wanna make sure this works and im not wasting my money for nothing becasue im really excited about this
Last edited by whitechevy; 09-20-2007 at 12:53 AM.
i got a few questions.. i am doing the turbo very soon, the turbo should be here this friday.. i have a few questions.. i own a 91 s-10 that DID have a 2.8L 5 speed.. well i swapped the motor out a few months ago to the 3.1L with my 5 speed bolted right up to it.. i used my intake off the 2.8L with the fuel system also.. i did install a new fuel pump while i did the swap to.. my questions are:
1. will my injectors be good enough to work? im going to be running a garret m24.. its made for low boost which is completely fine with me, i dont wanna start breakin things, i also dont have a heavy foot either..
2. will my fuel pump be good enough?
3. what will i have to do for the computer, if anything?
i know i have many more questions i just cant remember them right now.. ill be sure to post them when i do remember though.. i just wanna make sure this works and im not wasting my money for nothing becasue im really excited about this
M24 (t25) is a really small turbo, I don't know how you are going to like it. They come in pairs on the 3.0l Nissan 300ZX.
Fuel pump is ok for low boost, and the injectors will be fine if you use s RRFPR (FMU), but I would recommend tuning the computer, and using bigger injectors.
how much would a fmu cost and where would be a good place to get one?
I have one on ebay, if it doesn't sell, I'll PM you. There are usually a bunch on there, some good ones, some off-brand, but I haven't heard anything bad about any of them.
I went with a Paxton Unit 8:1. They are also known as RRFPR (rising rate fuel pressure regulator).
im not gonna lie, but what does this do as for the turbo use? does it just add more fuel for the more air going in?.. is a 8:1 good or should i use something different?
im not gonna lie, but what does this do as for the turbo use? does it just add more fuel for the more air going in?.. is a 8:1 good or should i use something different?
8:1 is good. It works just like a stock FPR except it referances from boost instead of vacuum. It goes in your return line and will raise the FP 8psi for every PSIG of boost. It works, but if you plan on making big HP in the future, definately use a bigger injector, and tune the ECM for it.
You know that a 4.3 TB will work on your TBI manifold? You can even port for it a little.
ok, im starting to understand it now.. yes i do know the 4.3tb will work, i just dont have any intentions of usin it.. i cant seem to find what boost that turbo came with.. im not interested in all out speed, im wanting to be different which is what this is gettin at.. but speed is good, the 3.1 does have more go then the 2.8 and im happy with that, i just am hoping the turbo gets it goin a lil bit more..
another question while its on my mind.. i dont have to have a boost controller right? its just if i dont wanna have to get out and manually do it? having it on one setting most of the time would be fine with me..
.
