V6Discussion and questions about the base carbureted or MPFI V6's and the rare SFI Turbo V6.
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another question while its on my mind.. i dont have to have a boost controller right? its just if i dont wanna have to get out and manually do it? having it on one setting most of the time would be fine with me..
The spring in the wastegate controls the amount of boost, a controller can just raise it above that.
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so i recived my turbo sat. and yes it is a bit small.. but im ok with it considering this is my first turbo install i've ever done, so its a learning process for me.. does it matter which bov and wastegate ill be using?
Last edited by whitechevy; 09-24-2007 at 12:16 PM.
alright.. i noticed u have a sensor near the turbo.. is that just something you have to have for your car but i dont need it for mine? or in other words is is just for your computer? but mine, i dont need the sensor?
Last edited by whitechevy; 09-26-2007 at 12:49 AM.
White, that is the o2 sensor. If using the stock sensor, keep it between the turbo and exhaust manifolds, preferably after the two merege.
tank, 3.1/2.8/3.4 RWD's are almost identical engines, so yes.
I can't stress enough that tuning is the key here guys. I rebuilt my motor twice due to detonation and bad tuning. If these are your daily drivers, please be aware of getting enough fuel supplied.
mine isnt daily driven.. its only a nice day/ show truck..
Yeah, that's how my car is when it's running
You might not be happy with that m24 (t25 class turbo), it's going to run out of steam real early, but it will help a little. You might see 200hp. A pair would be better served on the 3.1, Nissan uses two on their 3.0L's. Mfgr's are known for using turbos that are on the small side for an engine (3.1 turbo Pontiac for example).
ya i understand.. but this is what i wanted to start with, since it will be my first turbo instal and im definatly in a learning process as i go.. once i learn more i will upgrade more.. this is work for now though
You might not be happy with that m24 (t25 class turbo), it's going to run out of steam real early, but it will help a little. You might see 200hp. A pair would be better served on the 3.1, Nissan uses two on their 3.0L's. Mfgr's are known for using turbos that are on the small side for an engine (3.1 turbo Pontiac for example).
actually a quick spooling turbo is kind of a good idea if your not drag racing. a turbo that spools early wont make as much all out power, but the low end is going to be really good. so i'd say a small turbo is good for rocketing out of corners, burnouts, and it shouldn't really effect gas milage too much.
You stress how important it is to get it tuned right... do you mean like putting bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump/ or do you mean electically like telling the computer to feed more gas into the motor with stock injectors????
You stress how important it is to get it tuned right... do you mean like putting bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump/ or do you mean electically like telling the computer to feed more gas into the motor with stock injectors????
That's a little much for a mild turbo, lol. I have the A1000, it's good for 800hp under boost (1000hp N/A).
A simple Walbro 255gph in tank is enough for a few hundred hp.
You really need to start with tuning equipment and learn to tweak your N/A first, then install the turbo. I did it the other way around anfd it cost me a spun bearing (twice) from detonation.
You inspired me. I have a 85 2.8l with a 5spd. And i love it, it handle like its on rails, hooks up great. I have mastered the launch. And The best part, is that i can get 29 mpg on the hwy.
This weekend it gets a 9bolt. Next weekend.... Some turbo action.
I am going to use some of your ideas. Same turbo, same intercooler similar intake routing. Idk i graduated from the a-team school of engineering. So i multitask the engineering process with the building process. haha
Ill take some pics when its done.
hey, hope its not too diverse, but I have an older 3800 v6, and this setup seems like it will be pretty universal, but what type of injectors might i need for just a 5-7 lb boost range, and what specs on the turbo and BOV should i change if any? this will be my first NA-non mod so far. thanks for the great information and pictures.
hey, hope its not too diverse, but I have an older 3800 v6, and this setup seems like it will be pretty universal, but what type of injectors might i need for just a 5-7 lb boost range, and what specs on the turbo and BOV should i change if any? this will be my first NA-non mod so far. thanks for the great information and pictures.
Man i am so pissed. I won a t04e turbo with internal waste gate off ebay. When i got it today i opend the box and see that its not the .50 comp .63 turbine that i orderd. Its a .60compressor .63 turbine
It looks like the out side dimensions are similar, but look how there is no step on the inlet like on the .50 .63 turbo. Not only is there no step, but the clamping area is thiner. I would say that the inlet i.d. is in fact bigger.
its the same exact turbo diff inlet housing,the inlet on mine was 3 inch thats why it has the larger step, urs is 1/4 in les sin diamiter start with so it only has a small taper to the inlet
hmm 2 5/16's id ?? feel llike poping off the inlet covet and taking a caliper to the inducer if the wheel?
its the same exact turbo diff inlet housing,the inlet on mine was 3 inch thats why it has the larger step, urs is 1/4 in les sin diamiter start with so it only has a small taper to the inlet
hmm 2 5/16's id ?? feel llike poping off the inlet covet and taking a caliper to the inducer if the wheel?
Opps i miss measured the od. Its not 2 3/4 or 3 its 2 7/8 You know what ill go out to the garage and get my calipers so we can do this right.
the od is 2.831 (a little bigger then 2 13/16) and the minimum id is 2.344 ( alittle bigger then 2 21/64)
wtf is up with every one using an fittings? The fitting on the turbo is 1/4 npt, so a 1/4npt to 3/16 flare adapter is a 1.19 from the hardware store, and the 3/16 is cheep too 20 feet for 15 bucks. So why does every one go out of there way to use an fittings and line?
i'm kinda new to the world of turbos... i was going to read every post to see if this was asked... but thats a lot of posts. so i'm just going to ask it.
does your car have to have fuel injectors? or can you do this to a carbed engine.
I have a 1985 Camaro, V6 (2.8L) and i wanted to add power without swapping my engine for a V8. so ya... info would be welcomed thanks in advance.
I recently made up my mind to turbo my 6. I've started to start planning things out have have talked to a few guys. I decided to use stock manifolds with a forward facing downpipes. I'm only going to run 5 psi to keep it safe for a stock internal motor. What should I use for tuning. Can I get away with just an fmu? I figured to do that pcm swap also for a better tune. I'll have questions later on as I get into the build more.
I recently made up my mind to turbo my 6. I've started to start planning things out have have talked to a few guys. I decided to use stock manifolds with a forward facing downpipes. I'm only going to run 5 psi to keep it safe for a stock internal motor. What should I use for tuning. Can I get away with just an fmu? I figured to do that pcm swap also for a better tune. I'll have questions later on as I get into the build more.
ur maf based, only thing u need is a set of 19# injectors
White, that is the o2 sensor. If using the stock sensor, keep it between the turbo and exhaust manifolds, preferably after the two merege.
Negitory....
Place the O2 sensor AFTER the turbine. The increased pre-turbine pressure will skew the readings. Also with the increased restriction pre-turbine there will be a false rich reading that will usually have the ECM command smaller injector pulse widths and lean out the mixture that causes even more problems.The increased heat can also shorten the life of the O2 sensor. Post turbine O2 placement gives a slightly more accurate reading due to the lower pressure. The turbine itself causes a change in the AFR of the exhaust gases, usually leaner, due to the turbine heat burning off some of the remaing fuel and also the turbine using the excess fuel in the exhaust gasses to spool and keep the turbine wheel spooled. This last part is getting fairly deep into turbine theory though, and it's just easier to understand that the readings pre-turbine and post turbine of the O2 sensor will be different.
It is better to use the O2 in a post turbine install for accuracy due to pressure, or less pressure post turbine, that will provide a more accurate reading.
I haven't seen a WBO2 manufacturer that recommends installing thier sensors pre-turbine, for both accuracy and increased heat reasons. This would also make tuning the car/ECM easier to have both O2 sensors post turbine. If you are using the simulated NBO2 output of the WBO2 sensor this goes without saying.
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I can't stress enough that tuning is the key here guys. I rebuilt my motor twice due to detonation and bad tuning. If these are your daily drivers, please be aware of getting enough fuel supplied.
I'll second this. I feel I was pretty lucky that my Franken60 didn't blow up, my tuning was off, but I think that using the aluminium heads, and a turbo tune (stock TGP) helped the situation.
Hmm. All the 3800's are doing this with the twin o2 sensors without problems.
So if the 3800s were blowing up, that would be the cool thing to do too? Oh wait that does happen.
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A heated o2 will be needed to install so far down stream, unless the sensor reaches correct temps.
How far down stream are we talking here? Even in an N/A application if the sensor is moved too far down stream they will cool off or never reach operating temp, using a non-heated O2
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Perhaps it's not the IDEAL thing to do, but neither is a NB on a turbo car either
Why not? ALL OEM manufacturers use NBO2 sensors on turbo and supercharger applications. Only in the last few years have the OEMs started using WBO2 fueling control.
The early GM ECM is not set-up to use a WBO2 sensor to control fueling, and unless you create a hack and patch or use a bin file that can use a WBO2 sensor for fueling control, then you would still be running on a NBO2 sensor.
Even though I will be installing a WBO2 sensor in my Datsun, I'm still of the camp that it's not absolutly nessisary to use a WBO2 sensor. You can get very close on tune with use of a NBO2 sensor, if you know how to look at everything else the engine is doing and what it's telling you.
lol im still tunning mine off a nb02, i throw in the wideband every now and then to check on things,but i just shoot for .800V from the narrow band.even the grand national guys do the same.like six says u jut shave to pay attention to the motor and car and what its doing
So if the 3800s were blowing up, that would be the cool thing to do too? Oh wait that does happen.
Well, we ALL have blown motors I'm sure regardless of the platform being used, lol.
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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
How far down stream are we talking here? Even in an N/A application if the sensor is moved too far down stream they will cool off or never reach operating temp, using a non-heated O2
Well remember in this configuration, even the turbo itself is quite a ways away from the heads. The hot pipes are going around the back of the engine, then under the k member and back up in front. It took about a quite a bit of pipe to get that far on mine.
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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Why not? ALL OEM manufacturers use NBO2 sensors on turbo and supercharger applications. Only in the last few years have the OEMs started using WBO2 fueling control.
Well if you are going to argue the fact that OEM's are correct, wasn't it you who told me that some OEM's have the NB before the turbine?
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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
The early GM ECM is not set-up to use a WBO2 sensor to control fueling, and unless you create a hack and patch or use a bin file that can use a WBO2 sensor for fueling control, then you would still be running on a NBO2 sensor.
Even though I will be installing a WBO2 sensor in my Datsun, I'm still of the camp that it's not absolutly nessisary to use a WBO2 sensor. You can get very close on tune with use of a NBO2 sensor, if you know how to look at everything else the engine is doing and what it's telling you.
I'm not saying that I disagree with you totally. The stock ECM may not have been designed for a WBo2, but the engines in questions were not designed for boost either.
It may just work to put the stock NB (non-heated) downstream of the turbine, but if it doesn't reach a minimum temp, it it will mis-read just as bad as if it were placed upstream of the turbine, right?
I tried my o2's in a few different configurations, and even had the WB feeding the ECM a simulated signal, and found I was most happy with the ECM reading the stock o2 that was pre-turbine and the WB only for checking the AFR and feeding the gauge. I'm sure there was some more variables involved, even the grounding location of the WB can change the reading.
Well, we ALL have blown motors I'm sure regardless of the platform being used, lol.
Yeah there should have been a "" after what I wrote.
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Well remember in this configuration, even the turbo itself is quite a ways away from the heads. The hot pipes are going around the back of the engine, then under the k member and back up in front. It took about a quite a bit of pipe to get that far on mine.
Too blanket of a statement, when custom turbocharging is involved, there are many configurations or pathes that the piping couold take, some long like you had, some short. Maybe in a long distance, like a rear mount set-up the O2 being preturbine would likely work better than all the way at the back, because the temp of the exhaust will definatly drop by that point, and the pressure would not be as high as with a conventional mount due to the cooled exhaust even pre-turbine.
My turbo was about 8" worth of pipe from one of the heads, about 3' of pipe from the other, NBO2 sensor mounted in the stock (turbocoupe) downpipe elbow O2 bung, woked absolutly great.
In another set-up there was about 12" between the closest head and the turbo, with the O2 in the down pipe, about 6" away from the turbo, it worked great, once again.
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Well if you are going to argue the fact that OEM's are correct, wasn't it you who told me that some OEM's have the NB before the turbine?
Nope, didn't say some, I said one that I know of, the '89/'90 Grand Prix TGP, and no one seems to know why that was done that way, other than possibly space since the downpipe was installed in a way that would make it difficult to install an O2 sensor. All other OEM turbo applications I've looked at have the O2 sensor in the downpipe.
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I'm not saying that I disagree with you totally. The stock ECM may not have been designed for a WBo2, but the engines in questions were not designed for boost either.
Moot point, engines are engines, regardless of aspiration. There is very little difference if any in the actual design between an N/A engine and a turbo engine when you actually break it down. On conventional engines, they all use a block, a crank, pistons and connecting rods, a cam or a few, rockers or followers, heads, etc, the design is the same, in some cases the parts might be altered a bit to get more from area or another.
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It may just work to put the stock NB (non-heated) downstream of the turbine, but if it doesn't reach a minimum temp, it it will mis-read just as bad as if it were placed upstream of the turbine, right?
If it doesn't reach temp, then there is something wrong. Switching to a heated O2 sensor would be a better idea than moving the O2 pre-turbine.
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I tried my o2's in a few different configurations, and even had the WB feeding the ECM a simulated signal, and found I was most happy with the ECM reading the stock o2 that was pre-turbine and the WB only for checking the AFR and feeding the gauge. I'm sure there was some more variables involved, even the grounding location of the WB can change the reading.
Again, this is something that should be addressed in each install, because your install had so much pipe between the heads and the turbo, the exhaust was likely cooling down too much by the time it even hit the turbo, let alone out the down pipe. A heated O2 would have been a more advisable option here.
Yeah there should have been a "" after what I wrote.
Perhaps if you said "burned up" I would have gotten it
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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Too blanket of a statement, when custom turbocharging is involved, there are many configurations or pathes that the piping couold take, some long like you had, some short. Maybe in a long distance, like a rear mount set-up the O2 being preturbine would likely work better than all the way at the back, because the temp of the exhaust will definatly drop by that point, and the pressure would not be as high as with a conventional mount due to the cooled exhaust even pre-turbine.
Not really. I thought this thread was based on an under k installation, I used this same method.
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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
My turbo was about 8" worth of pipe from one of the heads, about 3' of pipe from the other, NBO2 sensor mounted in the stock (turbocoupe) downpipe elbow O2 bung, woked absolutly great
In another set-up there was about 12" between the closest head and the turbo, with the O2 in the down pipe, about 6" away from the turbo, it worked great, once again.
Yeah, Loner's worked great as well. Both his sensors were mounted about 6" away from the turbine, near the turn down. They were mounted in line IIRC, much like you asked in the PROM forum bout yours. Works good.
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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Nope, didn't say some, I said one that I know of, the '89/'90 Grand Prix TGP, and no one seems to know why that was done that way, other than possibly space since the downpipe was installed in a way that would make it difficult to install an O2 sensor. All other OEM turbo applications I've looked at have the O2 sensor in the downpipe.
So it does work, then. Was there known issues with them as far as longevity of the sensors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Moot point, engines are engines, regardless of aspiration. There is very little difference if any in the actual design between an N/A engine and a turbo engine when you actually break it down. On conventional engines, they all use a block, a crank, pistons and connecting rods, a cam or a few, rockers or followers, heads, etc, the design is the same, in some cases the parts might be altered a bit to get more from area or another.
Yes and no. OEM turbo apps tend to have lower compression, some even went as far as forged pistons etc, but those are really just "safety nets" and don't affect the function of an engine, so I guess you got me there
Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
If it doesn't reach temp, then there is something wrong. Switching to a heated O2 sensor would be a better idea than moving the O2 pre-turbine.
I agree a heated sensor is an easy solution, but I used my stock sensor becasue it worked and I had it right there. Kind of like using the Gen2 push rods in your Franken 60? :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Again, this is something that should be addressed in each install, because your install had so much pipe between the heads and the turbo, the exhaust was likely cooling down too much by the time it even hit the turbo, let alone out the down pipe. A heated O2 would have been a more advisable option here.
Again, I thought this thread was basing the subject off the install, one that so many v6 Fbodies have used (under k). Yes, each install has to have lots of little issues addressed according to all the variables, tooling, availability of parts at the time, the ability of the fabricator, and not to mention all the variations on tuning and parts selection.
wtf is up with every one using an fittings? The fitting on the turbo is 1/4 npt, so a 1/4npt to 3/16 flare adapter is a 1.19 from the hardware store, and the 3/16 is cheep too 20 feet for 15 bucks. So why does every one go out of there way to use an fittings and line?
Mostly because to be track legal you’re going to have to run braded or steel hardline, and most people don’t want to run hard line.
As far as O2 sensor location, as far as what I’ve seen, only WB O2’s are really pressure sensitive (and also work in a much narrower band of temperatures) as compared to a NBO2.
As far as tuning issues… GM basically knew what tune the parts needed when the car left the factory, and as far as serious running was concerned the O2 wasn’t involved. It was only used under cruise conditions and as a rich/lean indicator, not as an indicator of exact A/F ratio.
This is jsut a stupid comment im posting but what the hell. If your going with non recirculated BOV and want a really loud sound buy a turbo XS RFL(really ****ing loud) sounds nasty get looks every time it goes off. Sounds like a f***in whip. We had one on a 92 AWD turbo eclipse was the best BOV i ever heard.
I am going to do this setup to an 89 camaro that had a "slight" engine fire when I get back from deployment. This thread seems to help a lot. Any final suggestions?
is installing a turbo good for just racing or is it good for commuting? it sounds cool to say i have a turbo but if you put in in your truck is it necessarily useful if your not using it to race with? idk... any input would be great.
Ok another newb question... How does your vacuum equipment work on a boosted setup. (ie...brake booster,cruise....)??? Thanks guys I enjoy the reading!
__________________ If you didn't build it, how can you call it yours?
Ok another newb question... How does yspr vacuum equipment work on a boosted setup. (ie...brake booster,cruise....)??? Thanks guys I enjoy the reading!
the brakes hold vacum while under boost, it has a one way check valve, though u wont be on the brakes while ur boosting, the only one mod i had to do was install a check valve on the heater control valve line, the line that controls the vents, without on it would pop the hoses off, its like a 79 cent part form the auto parts store
One question, If i were to install a turbo set up like this, would i still be able to use my stock air intake?
No....you will be running new piping to the throttle body. If your talking about the stock intake runners and manifold, then yes...but it would be a good idea to do AT LEAST some port matching.
" after what I wrote.
