V6Discussion and questions about the base carbureted or MPFI V6's and the rare SFI Turbo V6.
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The webbing on the blocks are different. I would experiment on a junk block before trying it on a good engine. Then all you would need is a crank with the notches on the center "timing" journal.
Since I have been trying to make the 60*'s become an intrigal part of the shop, when I get the 3.1 out of the Firebird, I'll see about drilling for the sensor (and making a jig). With a jig, it will be a process simple enough for anybody to do that has access to a drill.
First pic in post #86 shows the webbing being thicker in the area of the sensor. It's located in the center of the block down low in the pass side.
If you can't drill it, then you have to run a trigger wheel like the Buicks. Maybe a Buick balancer can be fitted to the 60* somehow? I have machined crank noses of "weird" engines to run aftermarket SBC balancers. It works as long as you take your modified assembly to the engine shop and have your crank/balancer/flywheel rebalanced. It was a pain in the butt, but when I was done I could then run an aftermarket sbc balancer and crank pulleys, which are much more available. I'm wondering if you can't do that with a 3.1?
How did the older 2.8/3.1 front wheel drive engines run DIS? Did they also have a webbed block?
Does anyone know the technical difference between the FWD and RWD blocks as far as usefulness? Are we just a set of motor mounts away from running an older 2.8/3.1 FWD block? I know the bellhousings match. At most, a slight clearancing for the starter to clear a RWD transmission. What else is the hang up?
I sold an 89 2.8 from a Firebird to a friend who put it in his Citation. I thought he was crazy, but he drove it to work to prove it to me! He said the only thing he had to do was to drill and tap the other side of my block to run his FWD starter. He ran his carb stuff and large cap distributor so the DIS stuff wasn't an option. I am just wondering about motor mount issues because it would sure be easier to score a FWD engine when on a budget rather than trying to mod an existing RWD 2.8/3.1...
I don't know, I understand budgets but you ought to be able to get a 3.4 pretty cheap if you're scouring the wrecking yards...
I read what you said about attaching a trigger wheel to the back of the balancer. That's the 3800/3300 Buick type setup. It works fine; I just don't know how you're gonna attach it to make it perfect...
Is it maybe possible to get the measurements from firstfirebird on his 3.4 (or take your own measurements from your crank) and drill/tap a hole in your block to hit the crank sensor that is cast into your crank already?
I already have the DIS pretty much figured out for my set up. I looked around in my area for a 3.4 with no luck. Probubly could have found one but I already had 3100 pistons so I was already leaning tword using my block.
1995
Engine
Pontiac Firebird 9-94,RWD,EFI,3.4,AT 106,285 A 5835A $550 Sharon Auto Wrecking USA-PA(Mercer) E-mail 1-724-346-4106 / 1-800-346-4109
1995
This is the closest one for me. About 45 min away. Although this wasnt up when I started collecting my parts Oh well, I already have enough parts to get me started with my 3.1. Ill put the parts on and shoot some pics once I get the engine out, which should be with in the next week or two.
I may upgrade to a 3.4 later, but for now Im going to see what my 3.1 can do. Seeing how I have the 3100 pistons, an external DIS trigger wheel assembly, and my money tree out back is has begun hibrinating for winter.
Got the radiator out...
Looked like a tree was hiding his leaves in there...
And I got the AC radiator(condensor?) out...
Found some surface rust under there...not to happy about that, but it should be able to be fixed.
Next time I spend time working on the car I should be taking the engine out. Hopefully by my day off this rain stops
The project is creeping along nicely. I know that you don't have lots of time. So the motor is comming out next if weather allows and a turbo 3.1 going in correct?
I tinker after work a little and on my days off. I prefer to work on it when Im the only one home...less people telling me "you know I wouldnt do it that way" or "whats that?", "whats that do?", "why are you doing that?".
What Im planning on doing a full rebuild with 3100 pistons, 3X00 top end, headers, turbo w/intercooler, a nice size cam, rebuilt tranny, and posi.
And yes as long as the weather cooperates, and I have help, I want to pull the engine/tranny this week.
The project is creeping along nicely. I know that you don't have lots of time. So the motor is comming out next if weather allows and a turbo 3.1 going in correct?
Thats what Im hoping
Im going to smooth out the 3400 plenum and I want to put something on the top. I know a guy that airbrushes. So what design/words could I put on there? Oh and the plenum will be black.
Thats what Im hoping
Im going to smooth out the 3400 plenum and I want to put something on the top. I know a guy that airbrushes. So what design/words could I put on there? Oh and the plenum will be black.
You mean like this? (unfinished still)...
I also polished some valve cover to match (going on a customer's car)...
Last edited by firstfirebird; 12-10-2007 at 09:04 PM.
Exactly. I will probubly get it to that point and than paint it black. Im not much of a flashy person...Chrome/polished aluminum is not really my thing. I was thinking of a tall while Camaro symbol down the middle or a white Chevy BowTie down the middle. Something simple and plain yet eye-catching.
So I have tomorrow off and it looks as thought the rain is going to break and stop by noon. Ive been talking to a guy I work with and he keeps telling me that I can pull the engine solo...this coming from a guy who use to make drag cars. He recently sold a Dodge Demon with a 5xxci engine
Yep, it's a small engine...comes out nice and easily...it's really only a one man job, but it's nice to have an extra set of eyes.
I never even had to take off the hood to get it out or to put it in...it cleared...barely...and I never removed the radiator as there's plenty of room in there, and I wasn't pulling the trani with the engine. Love how easy it is to work on these engines.
Btw, I think a white, Chevy bow tie would be a nice touch....but it's a GM engine....so, I think a Camaro symbol would be more fitting.
Hey, I know you say that the FWD blocks won't work in the RWD cars, but will the top end?
I used to be on mymonte.com all the time and there was a guy that made really nice stuff for the 60* motors. Everyone on the board had good things to say. His site was www.milzymotorsports.com
__________________ -Adam
1990 Firebird Formula
Bone Stock 305TBI, T5 tranny, 62k Origional
UMI subframe Connectors
Well guys, I cant believe what I did today...
I ran into a few "kinks". The engine hit the firewall a little and left 1 dent and a few scratches. And I couldnt get 1 wire off of the starter, so in my fury I ended up cutting it....I got a little frustrated. I have tomorrow off as well, so I plan to seperate the engine/tranny and get the engine on the stand. Oh and my bro ended up helping. So now i have to buy a case of beer...and share it
Oh and I have a question. At the end my brother took the relief screw all the way out of the pump on the engine hoist and out came oil . It was an accedent and he hasnt worked with cars before so I didnt flip out. Is there a way to refill it or do i need to get a new one?
I be doing that in the next few months except I only have a weekend to get the motor in and the 3.4 in. Any tips for getting the motor out?
Plug the tailshaft on the tranny. I was told that a bag secured on there was good........nope. If this is a daily driver than it might be tough to get it torn out and a new one back in in a weekend. That took me about 5-5.5 hours(my first engine pull) to pull the engine. So if you have to strip the ould one, pull it, drop in a new one, and put it back together so you are going to have to really devote some time.
Mabye once my head clears I can give a few more detailed tips.
The 3.4 I'm droppig will almost be complete. The only thing that I would have to swap are the accessories, fuel rail, and tranny. I might wait till spring break though so that I have a week to do the swap and work out any bugs that might surface.
Hey, I know you say that the FWD blocks won't work in the RWD cars, but will the top end?
I used to be on mymonte.com all the time and there was a guy that made really nice stuff for the 60* motors. Everyone on the board had good things to say. His site was www.milzymotorsports.com
I wouldn't buy from Miltzy. I've seen their port work.
Either buy from 60DegreeV6 (Ben) or 60DegreeInclusive (Me).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimmcs
Plug the tailshaft on the tranny. I was told that a bag secured on there was good........nope. If this is a daily driver than it might be tough to get it torn out and a new one back in in a weekend. That took me about 5-5.5 hours(my first engine pull) to pull the engine. So if you have to strip the ould one, pull it, drop in a new one, and put it back together so you are going to have to really devote some time.
Mabye once my head clears I can give a few more detailed tips.
Looks like you handled it well. Actually is easier to pull the tranny and engine together, but it's tough sometimes to get them bolted back together out of the car.
Also you had the hood pulled due to the rust, correct? I'm going to pull just the engine, and bolt the shortblock back in so those two top bell housing bolts are easy - hood is staying on.
Can't wait to see your baby fly this summer!!! Looks like I have some competition, lol.
Last edited by firstfirebird; 12-12-2007 at 08:41 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Looks like you handled it well. Actually is easier to pull the tranny and engine together, but it's tough sometimes to get them bolted back together out of the car.
Also you had the hood pulled due to the rust, correct? I'm going to pull just the engine, and bolt the shortblock back in so those two top bell housing bolts are easy - hood is staying on.
Thanks. I had to take the fenders off to get to the rust. So in order to do that the hood had to come off. I dont think I could have gotten the engine and tranny out with the hood on. Just the engine...probubly doable with the hood on.
Also I am planning on getting a rebuilt tranny because mine has a little slippage. Figured nows a good time to get a rebuilt one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstfirebird
Can't wait to see your baby fly this summer!!! Looks like I have some competition, lol.
When you have a trans built you should consider improving it a bit. The 60* trans retained the 27 spline shaft and most of the associated hardware throughout it's use in 3rd gens, so needless to say it's not the strongest trans out there. Take a look at this thread I started a while ago. -> www.thirdgen.org/techboard/transmissions-drivetrain/436336-improving-early-th700s.html (Improving early Th700's)
It's intended for pre- '87 th700's but applies to just about any th700. If you're going to shop for your own parts I highly recommend patc.
Well after taking a couple days off to recoupe from the engine pull, I got the engine/tranny seperated...
Got the engine on the stand...
And the tranny into the corner...
...just in time to get tthe garage bay cleared for my moms car before a nasty freezing rain storm.
Oh and I found out that the rear camshaft cover gasket has been leaking. Eather way, this engine was do for a rebuild.
I looked at the cylinder walls real quick (where I could see) and it dosent look like there is much, if any, scoring. Besiders a few bad gaskets, the engine still looks pretty good so far.
Oh and the intake gaskets were Felpro. So I know that, at least, the intake has been removed.
He should be running a sweet motor when this is finished. Nothing like the look on someone's face when they just got beat by a v6. The stock 3100 heads he has should be flowing about 180CFM if he doesn't port them. Add a turbo and it should be a 300+hp engine (conservative) - the shortblock weighs less then 200lbs, and the top end weighs about 45 (yes, I have weighed them). Nothing wrin with an LSx, but you are in the wrong section if you want to talk someone into swapping a V8. He's got a nice collection of parts already to potentially make this a 11-12sec v6 (providing susopesion/traction upgrades).Chris, All the 660's I pulled apart had good looking cyl walls and the cross-hatches are still appaprent (even over 100k). They all also have that nasty carbon ring at the top of the bore (also note the extra carbon on number 5 and 6 pistons). Hone them, and you should be fine. Make sure you clean the block really good after every process (unless you are having it hot tanked). Chack your cam bearings now while they are easy to get to, but if your oil was changed on a regular basis, they should be good (cam-priority oiling in the Gen1 blocks ). PM me if you need help with any details, since I just finished a Gen1 shortblock, but looks like you are moving along nicely How's the rust situation? Is your friend going to help?
I thought about doing this but decided against it for 2 reasons. I want to build a fast v6 and I dont have the money for that swap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstfirebird
Chack your cam bearings now while they are easy to get to, but if your oil was changed on a regular basis, they should be good (cam-priority oiling in the Gen1 blocks ). PM me if you need help with any details, since I just finished a Gen1 shortblock, but looks like you are moving along nicely How's the rust situation? Is your friend going to help?
Ive been looking into changing the cam bearings, and I keep finding that its best to have a shop do them. But summit had a tool that can do it. Ill have to see if mine are sill good.
And the rust...car is still in my garage. My friend told me he can fix the rust and paint the car for about $2000 +/-. Hes giving me a BIG discount. He wanted the engine out before he does anything. Now I just need to get him out here to get a better look at it.
I replaced my waterpump torx bolts with ones from a 3.4 with hex heads.Try taking the next size up and hammering it in there. One it's jambed in there really tight, turn them slow. Also heat on the block will help.Looks like you didn't have the perfect size, it's an odd one (can't remember off the top of my head and out of town to look in my toolbox) - it doesn't come in the regular sets.
I replaced my waterpump torx bolts with ones from a 3.4 with hex heads.Try taking the next size up and hammering it in there. One it's jambed in there really tight, turn them slow. Also heat on the block will help.Looks like you didn't have the perfect size, it's an odd one
It was actually the right one. It had a really good fit...hat to wiggle it in there. I started to twist it with my rachet and before it even moved it popped all the teath out. Ill try to use the nest size up tomorrow...also my dad has a set of normal hex bolt, rounded head, removers that I will try tomorrow as well.
I also want to replace them with normal hex bolts when Im done.
If you have to you can grind off the head of the bolts (like they're any good to you now anyway) then you can get the water pump off. Then all you need is a vice grips, penetrating oil, and a torch.
usually when i strip a torx bolt i just bust out the dremel with a cutting wheel and turn it into a flathead screw but it looks like you might need to hammer in a bigger size.
It was actually the right one. It had a really good fit...hat to wiggle it in there. I started to twist it with my rachet and before it even moved it popped all the teath out. Ill try to use the nest size up tomorrow...also my dad has a set of normal hex bolt, rounded head, removers that I will try tomorrow as well. I also want to replace them with normal hex bolts when Im done.
Grimm, this used to happen to us all of the time. Just file down the rounded side of the bolt, do this on two opposing sides, this way the vice grip can grip it properly. Once the vice grip is on nice and tight, add an extension to the vice grip (like a single tire iron) for leverage, and that bolt will break loose immediately....
-Gaspar
__________________ '90 Trans Am GTA: 305 w/the stock TPI system... and T88 Turbo.
Fastest 305 on the planet...
I'd much rather be stroked first... then blown. Wouldn't you?
Thanks for all the tips. I hammered in a bigger size, it griped it, and rounded the middle even more. So at that point I decided to just grind off the heads of the bolts...
At this point I grabbed the bolts with the vice grip and they twisted right out Although I ended up gouging the water pump. But I guess it would be good to buy a new one anyways.
Got the timing chain cover off to reveal an old timing chain...
Took the chain and cam off/out. The cam bearings have 1 rough spot on each. They arent destroyed but seem bad enough that I dont want to test them.
Oh well, I already have enough parts to get me started with my 3.1. Ill put the parts on and shoot some pics once I get the engine out, which should be with in the next week or two. 
Although I ended up gouging the water pump. But I guess it would be good to buy a new one anyways.
