firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I can see in to the future....



^^^ These are the old iron heads and LIM.



^^^ 3500 heads loosley bolted.



^^^ Look how shiney those 3500 heads are The LIM and the timing cover don't jive, but that will soon be taken care of.



^^^Say Bye-Bye distributor



^^^And here is what future looks like.

Tomorrow clearance the timing cover, and start making templates for the accessories. Got to make sure there is plenty of room for some forward facing headers. The A/C is staying, along with P/S (steering for now).

More pics are here (click)



Also have to make a decision on the throttle cable location. Does anybody know what I can get a nice long cable set-up? I might want to have it pull from the front.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

You're not talking about my wife's Toyota?

[/QUOTE] Say Bye-Bye distributor [/QUOTE]

I may have missed this part as I have not followed this story completely from the beginning. Where are your crank and cam signals coming from?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

No cam signal, that is for SFI, where as I am MPFI (batch fire).

The crank signal is comming from the crank , there is a journal at the ceneter of the 3.4 crank (came with DIS from the factory) and a sensor mounted in the block...

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

WOW. Now THAT is sexah.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Why does the crank say 3.1L? That is what I'm reading cast on the front of the crank in your picture, right?

So, the 3.4 rwd blocks are the same as the early 3.4 fwd blocks? Why else would the block have a sensor?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

The crank is from a 3100 (late FWD denotation for the 3.1) and has DIS. The 3.4 has the same stroke, larger bore from the 3.1. A 3.1 is a stroked 2.8.

The 3.4 was a totally different concept to the 2.8/3.1, with the ecxeption of the iron heads. The 3400 is far superior to the 3.4 in many ways. It came with roller cam, roller fulcrum rockers, main priority oiling, and the aluminum heads comming with larger ports, larger valves that are canted for flow, heart-shaped combustion chambers, etc, etc. GM is still improving on the 60* platform, and I've mentioned before, are currently pulling almost 300hp N/A.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Okay, so the 3.4 and 3100 can swap cranks?

The 3.4 as used in 4th gens has the same block as the first 3.4 front wheel drives? I understand that the pistons go with the heads, the early 60 degrees did that as well...

What is the interchangeability to your knowledge as far as 3.4 engines go between front wheel drive and 4th gen usage?

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I've got plans to do the same thing for my Firebird... I can't wait until it's time to start on my own! That just looks soooo awesome.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Why didn't you just drop in the complete front wheel drive engine and just make your motor mounts custom? Seems like less work that way...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's what I'm doing with mine, a complete 3500, when I get some time to finish the mount jig. The genIII oil pan has to be modified or the crossmember has to be cutout and clearanced.

The 3.1, 3100, 3.4 (DOHC and OHV) and 3400, all share the same crank. Many 3400s have "3.1L" cast right into the crank. All use the 3.31" stroke.

the genI 2.8/3.1 blocks do not have a provision for the crank trigger, an external custom wheel such as mine has to be used. The genII, genIII and 3.4 (DOHC and OHV) have provisions for the crank trigger. This is why starting with a 3.4 block (from the 4th gen F-body) is the easiest starting point to build a hybrid such as this, it will bolt into the chassis, and will accept the heads all the way up to the OHV 3500. The only drawback is the old oiling system, flat tappet cam, no windage tray, and lack of crossbolted mains.

FF, I told you about the tab on the front cover long ago.

You may be able to use a 4.3 throttle cable, Wolf on FTV6 mentioned that to me in my short stint over there. Get a hold of him for specifics.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do about the TB, I need some serious flow, so I've been debating on running dual TBs, in either a parallel configuration, or progressive, or a single larger TB. Trying to find one from the wreckers that also has some emmisions ports (ported vacuum).

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

No there were no early 3.4 FWD's, they were all 3400's. There was a time where they had aluminum FWD heads and they were called 3.1/2.8, that was Gen2. All RWD's are Gen1 blocks. Gen3 had two major changes, pre-'00 for the 3100 and pre-97 (IIRC) for the 3400, where the earlier heads/intakes had slightly smaller valves and ports.

Now with 4th Gen you mention, you mean 4th gen fbod? The 3.4 block is almost identical to the 3.1 block with the excetion of the DIS mounting location (much like the difference between a 305 and 350 blokc ). The 3400 FWD has roller lifters, and there are no such provisions in a 3.4 block.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Okay!

You've convinced me...

I WILL CONTINUE WITH MY BUICK ENDEAVORS!!

I am not bad mouthing your work by any means. I think it's great. It's just not the road I see in front of me. I need a larger displacement to make me feel better and it's easier with the Buicks.

Good luck, guys!!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The 3100 and 3400 had the same size valves up to '99. In '00 both changed to the larger intake valve (.02" larger).

Also a correction to your fist line, there were early FWD 3.4s, they were just DOHC.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the correction .

Do you know what cable I can use? I don't think it's going to be an easy task to get the throttle cable under the UIM, so it might be easier to pull from the front an duse a FWD TB.

pairtoe

iTrader: (4)

man its insane what a little creativity and knowledge can do. thats gonna be awesome when its done.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

I remember hearing something about the timing cover, but I dont remember exactly what it was. Shed some light on that. Also nice work so far. I also like how the plastic filler panel, in front of the rad., holds tools...and beer

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I'll get a close-up, but the mounting tab on the top of the timing cover is what's holding the LIM up.

And that was Sprite , was too early for beer.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

That crank looks familiar, haha. I hope its up to the task when we crank the boost on my brothers car! 19yr old tranny mount couldn't handle it at 5 psi, ah well. All looks sweet though.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, my tranny mount got shot, too. It wasn't even running very long under boost, either :P

The crank is from a 3100. The 3.1 crank has a blank reluctor wheel in the center, no notches. Although, they will interchange.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, his had the notches and the same casting numbers on it as the one pictured above. "3.1L" and "981" I think thats what it said... been a little while now. I read that 981 was the same casting used in the TGP in 91?or92?or93? I read it on some TurboGrandPrix website and they were bragging about it being stronger than something... I don't remember.

When I saw the crank for sale, I was thinking $99 shipped for a brand new 60v6 crank... I'll MAKE it work.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Where did you find it for $100. The 981 is just a cast crank, but I haven't heard of anybody breaking one. It's rated to 7200RPM IIRC, but I think it has to do with the symmetrical 120* fire of the 60* V6. the newer 3500 got a steel crank, but has to be re-ground to work in our cars.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I picked it up from a machine shop up here in MD selling it on ebay.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Correction, the genII 3.1 has the notches. Some say that some of the genI 3.1s that received the 981 crank had the notches, later years IIRC, cheaper to make one part all the, instead of two.
----------
Another correction. :P

The crank itself will fit in the earlier blocks, but the rod journals are much larger than the earlier 660s, and require block machining to clear the rod journals. It has yet to be determined if the earlier blocks will actually have enough material to accomplish this.

I have not yet determined if it's a steel crank or not, I've seen people say it is and others say it is not.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I've had my oil pan off 3 times, and the reluctor wheel is blank.


I said the 3100 and 3.1 cranks are interchangeable . I'm aware of the journal differences, but there was no 3.1 at that time.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's why it is said some have the notches.

I don't understand what you are saying here. The crank I was describing was the 3500 crank, and how to retro-fit it to an earlier block.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Sorry, I mistook early for early 2.8's (small journal). Yes, the crank (or block) has to modified. I would think it would be easier/cheaper to turn the crank down. The rod journals are also too big, aren't they (or is that the 3900)?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The mains are the same size between the earlier 660s and the 3500, the rod journals are larger, in the 3500. I have not looked into the 3900 much due to it's very different placement in teh market and design (OHC).

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I looked at the possbility of using a 3900 crank (saw one on ebay for $100), but the work it would take wasn't worth it to me. The rod journals could be offset ground to get another .01" of stroke, and the reluctor wheel is 52x. I just decided to stay with the 3.4 crank for now.

xiholdtruex

thats head looks beautiful i would love to do that to my car,nice clean and alumized up lol i love it.and with a boost set up it must look disgustingly pretty ,nice work so far

327???

What are you ding for the oil pump drive?(I'm assuming it's driven from the distributor)

Are parts from the 3.8 4th gens(or fwd for that matter) interchangeable?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Oil pump drive is going to be just that. The 3.4 4thGen Fbod's don't have distributors, they have an oil pump drive that goes in the same place of it.

No the 3.8 (actually called a 3800 Series II) is a 90* engine that bolts to a 60* tranny (small corporate pattern), and are not interchangeable with a 60*. The heads are from a 2004 Malibu, and will get me about 8.8 or 8.9:1 compression with 3400 pistons.

I was origionally going to use the 2.8/3.1 block, but since I needed a rebuild anyways (detonated and comprimised a rod bearing), I decided to rebuild a 3.4. 3500 heads won't fit the 3.1/2.8 bore because the combustion chambers will overlap the deck. 3400/3100 heads even will slightly shroud the valves with the side of the cylinder wall, but the benifits of the large valves and ports outweigh this.

Here are the differences between the iron, 3400 and 3500 heads...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/4...re-3400-a.html

and more...

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t...bird/headpics/

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t...pics/?start=20

Remember, you will probably need to use the FWD pistons that correspond to the engine in order to have reasonable compression, especially if you stay with a 2.8.

327???

Thanks, I knew the 3800's were different, just not how different.

I need to stay away from you people, I've had my bird for less than a month and I'm already thinking about what to do to it.

Edit: What pistons are you using? 3400 fwd?

2nd edit: the 3.4 and 3500 flow seems very close, what advantage does the 3500 head hold over the 3.4?

Sorry for all the questions, but you got me thinking.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Any update on the build?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

In the end I will be using 3400 pistons, but I might keep the 3.4 jugs in there while N/A (+/-11.5:1CR ).

The 3500 chambers are larger, valves are already unshrouded by the factory, better plenum/UIM design plus the benefit of more flow.

The older heads in these pics are from the 3500 (notice the room for porting )...

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t...bird/headpics/

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t...pics/?start=20

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/4...mparisons.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/4...re-3400-a.html

Not really. The wife is still recovering, and with only 60% of her pay, funds have been tight. I'm going to be ordring the gasket kit in the next couple of days and start the porting and combustion chamber re-working probably next week.

Don't worry, I won't leave you in the dark . Haven't heard much in your "man down" thread either .

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Oh I forgot about that. Hope everything is going ok

Well its pretty much in the same spot as it was last time I posted about it. Still waiting for my buddy to get back to me. Hes one of those guys that you have to keep pushing to get stuff done Im getting tired of just letting it sit, so Im contumplating pulling the engine/tranny soon.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

?Waiting for what?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

My buddy was talking to a friend of his, who owns his own body shop, to get me a ballpark price on the repair of the rust. He can probubly do it cheap and quick, so depending on the price Ill might have him do it.

327???

So, firstfirebird, just out of curiosity, since you're not gonna be using the 3400 top end what are you doing with it?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I traded the heads for a ported/rebuilt Eaton M90, the LIM for a set of 3400 pistons, and sold the UIM to GrimmCS. Right now, though, there is someone selling a set of big port 3400 heads and LIM on 60degreev6.com for $150IIRC (Buy/Sell/Trade section). The heads are brand new.
----------
I ordered the upper end gasket kit today from GM Parts Direct. They were $150 delivered. The LIM problem of the earlier 60*'s is a thing of the past with the new metal gaskets . The RTV that goes between the block and LIM is now eliminated with the red rubber gaskets you see. I will just have to drill a couple of holes in the block to hold them during assy.



I had to pirate a pic from another site because it's 7-10 days to be sent out. I guess that's what happens when you use parts that are less than 3yrs old (no aftermarket support yet).

I also should be getting the LS6 springs soon (good for 5.75" lift!). Then it's on to fitting the springs, porting the heads/manifolds, and modifying the combustion chambers.



Next purchase is going to be the rocker studs, so I can use the 1.7 roller tips that I have from a SB Ford. I'm just unsure if I want to use the 8mm studs that will bolt right into the heads, or drill/tap them to accept 10mm studs since I will be in an adjustable rocker configuration, and don't need a stud breaking at or over 7000RPM .

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Don't use those valley gaskets, they don't seal well, especially on a hybrid. Just use a fat bead of RTV and be done with it, you'll still need to use the RTV to provide a small sealing and hold those gaskets in place anyway.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I saw other guys use the red gaskets with no problems, one has been over a year. I just like the idea of a gasket designed for it, rather than that fat bead that I hate. I know a thin layer never hurts on the other gaskets, on the upper manifolds I have used a little spray adhesive to hold them.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Odd, I've been hearing the opposite.

I use RTV and never have a problem.

327???

Bad valve seals are a good enough reason to swap heads, right?

Maybe after I buy the tranny for my winter beater and a laptop for school....

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

From new 3500's, or top end swaps?

backgammon7

isnt it bad to set a crank down like that? wont it "bend" and get out of balance? i thought you were suppose to hang them on there end?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That's my kitchen countertop, I had just opened the package .

backgammon7

ok, i was just wondering

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Swaps mostly, since the 3500s are pretty new.

It's only bad to leave a crank like that. The chances of the crank actually flexing is pretty low. I've left cranks like that for like a year, sat in a block, turned just fine, added and torqued main caps also turned just fine.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I've left cranks like that, but they always ended up as scrap. Sometimes I buy way more than I need. I have a few sets of rods/pistons, and now cranks laying about

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Got the pushrod guides started today, they are going to work perfect. Next is to drill/tap the stud mounts to accept 10mm studs for extra security and so the guides will work properly.