V6Discussion and questions about the base carbureted or MPFI V6's and the rare SFI Turbo V6.
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lol well atleast not all the cats are out of the bag yet
.... I hope that's some freaking cat, cuz you'll be paired up against me come this March. Oh yes, payback will be sweet. You, Paul and Huber must go down lmao!
-Rob
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__________________ 1998 Trans Am: Mystic Blue w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Daily Driver.... 1990 Trans Am GTA: Black w/Black Leather, 5-Speed, T-Tops, Few Mods.... 1989 Trans Am TTA: White w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Garage Queen.... 1986 Chevy Camaro V6: Blue w/Black Cloth, Hardtop, 355-TPI Swap, 700R4, MS-II....
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.... I hope that's some freaking cat, cuz you'll be paired up against me come this March. Oh yes, payback will be sweet. You, Paul and Huber must go down lmao!
-Rob
well me and paul were kicking around the ideal for a fuel system capable of suporting the motor on 100% methanol but my fuel pumps would be on the edge at 500 hp with 100% meth so i doubt were gonna go that way but weve been working on a few other areas of the car, but ull find out come spring time,possibly the next few weks as i might just take the car to atco now that there open
well me and paul were kicking around the ideal for a fuel system capable of suporting the motor on 100% methanol but my fuel pumps would be on the edge at 500 hp with 100% meth so i doubt were gonna go that way but weve been working on a few other areas of the car, but ull find out come spring time,possibly the next few weks as i might just take the car to atco now that there open....
We're planning on going soon as well, and the GTA will have a new trick or three to compliment the Procharger. I was cringing at the idea of pulling the heads, but now I'm like F-it, it's gotta be done, especially with the cam that's going in. Aside from the heads and cam, there's still two more things, in conjunction with the supercharger that are going in, w/one of them being the most freaking expensive, aside from the procharger itself. Oh, and for anybody else reading, the $59 code works like a charm....
__________________ 1998 Trans Am: Mystic Blue w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Daily Driver.... 1990 Trans Am GTA: Black w/Black Leather, 5-Speed, T-Tops, Few Mods.... 1989 Trans Am TTA: White w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Garage Queen.... 1986 Chevy Camaro V6: Blue w/Black Cloth, Hardtop, 355-TPI Swap, 700R4, MS-II....
Just go the v8 route. The only reason to turbo is to waste money into being different, or gas mileage.
V8's are sooooo easy to come by its stupid not to. I could look in the classifieds any given sunday and find a motor for under 300$ and parts are soo easy to come by.
Victor Jr. intake = 40 $.
Comp cam = 20$.
A single-plane holley intake and 4 holley 750 carbs = 35$.
Finding headers up my ***... = Priceless...
It really is that easy. I live in Bum-F**k-Egypt and theirs stock and performance v8 parts everywhere.
I got rid of my v6, and will find a 90-92 shell and put in a carbed v8 and will expect it to cost nowhere near a grand, much less 2...
I just cant imagine someone with any sanity would start at 108hp, spend a grand or two, and end up at something like 250, and think good of themselves at the end of the day.
Good job, you wasted money, you got a cool turbo, and your still dog-A$$ slow. Good job, want a cookie?
If anything, do what Dave (Project89) is thinking of, and find a 4.3 and turbo, SC, or spray it. At least youll be starting with a considerably more supported base of power and aftermarket possibilities.
Now dont get me wrong.
Maybe it makes sense to some, and I honestly do applaud the effort and skills used on trying to make these v6's fast, and I love watching the progress... But in the end, if you wanna go fast, throw the v6 away, and get something that will go fast....
Just go the v8 route. The only reason to turbo is to waste money into being different, or gas mileage.
V8's are sooooo easy to come by its stupid not to. I could look in the classifieds any given sunday and find a motor for under 300$ and parts are soo easy to come by.
Victor Jr. intake = 40 $.
Comp cam = 20$.
A single-plane holley intake and 4 holley 750 carbs = 35$.
Finding headers up my ***... = Priceless...
It really is that easy. I live in Bum-F**k-Egypt and theirs stock and performance v8 parts everywhere.
I got rid of my v6, and will find a 90-92 shell and put in a carbed v8 and will expect it to cost nowhere near a grand, much less 2...
I just cant imagine someone with any sanity would start at 108hp, spend a grand or two, and end up at something like 250, and think good of themselves at the end of the day.
Good job, you wasted money, you got a cool turbo, and your still dog-A$$ slow. Good job, want a cookie?
If anything, do what Dave (Project89) is thinking of, and find a 4.3 and turbo, SC, or spray it. At least youll be starting with a considerably more supported base of power and aftermarket possibilities.
Now dont get me wrong.
Maybe it makes sense to some, and I honestly do applaud the effort and skills used on trying to make these v6's fast, and I love watching the progress... But in the end, if you wanna go fast, throw the v6 away, and get something that will go fast....
A v8.
Spoken like a true *******.
I had a LOT of people think my poorly tuned turbo v6 (this was before I got into ECM tuning), was a mildly upgraded v8. I built and installed it for LESS money than it would haven taken to swap in a v8. No body seemed to cared how much power it made, they would just sit there for a while looking at it and asking question about how I installed a "FWD" engine in my RWD vehicle, and then explained to them that it was a combination of FWD and RWD.
For the people that did ask about the power, they were more than impressed with the power equal to or higher than many (genI) V8s (face it that's what you can buy for "less than $300", probably a smogger at that.) with about half the displacement or just over the half the displacement depending on what engine you are comparing to.
Most v8 swaps that cost less than 2K will be about the same power as a turbo v6 or less. GenI v8s, are still the only cheap option, most will be smoggers or have poor flowing heads and produce less than 200 HP, yeah, headers, intake cam and exhaust may open up the power, but maybe not as much as you think. Also to go from EFI to carb, just to stay "cheap", is a poor decision IMO, what you may save in the swap you'll more than spend in fuel driving it due to the lower economy of the carb. Don't try and tell me that you have some magical carb tuning ability to surpass the fuel economy abilities that EFI has, because EFI simply trumps carbs in this respect, and have the same power if not more, in most cases with a wider torque curve. This has been proven many times over.
V6 is lighter (even the iron head V6) than a V8, increasing economy as well, which guess what also helps with performance, lighter package means quicker accel better handling and quicker stops, especially when the same power is there.
V8 had it's day, the trend is shifting to smaller, more efficiant power plants that have more to offer than just power output.
Just go the v8 route. The only reason to turbo is to waste money into being different, or gas mileage. V8's are sooooo easy to come by its stupid not to....
Victor Jr. intake = 40 $.
Comp cam = 20$.
A single-plane holley intake and 4 holley 750 carbs = 35$.
Sorry, but that type of thinking is just, well, prehistoric, and so easy a caveman can do it!
__________________ 1998 Trans Am: Mystic Blue w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Daily Driver.... 1990 Trans Am GTA: Black w/Black Leather, 5-Speed, T-Tops, Few Mods.... 1989 Trans Am TTA: White w/Tan Leather, Automatic, T-Tops, Garage Queen.... 1986 Chevy Camaro V6: Blue w/Black Cloth, Hardtop, 355-TPI Swap, 700R4, MS-II....
I too have thought I had a bigger motor. Last week some kid thought I had a 400 in my truck. Its only a 4.3, and it was some kid that doesn't know **** about motors. Theres millions of those types, and it happens to everybody. Just don't see what they think as being true.
You could use comments like that to boost your ego or whatever, but in the end your still running that v6. period.
Also, If someone had the parts laying around, yeah you could prolly beef up the v6 for cheaper. But most of us dont have 3.1 performance parts just "laying" around. Chances are, 90% of the chevy parts laying around are gonna be for a Small-Block v8. Therefore for the great majority, they'd have a easier and cheaper road going to a v8. Am I wrong?
Power? Smogger? First of all, if your wanting power, wouldnt you start with the most powerful choice possible? Not doing so your hindering yourself. You'll have to do so much more work to get half the power than if you were to go v8. Am I wrong?
Smogger? Isn't the 3.1 (and the 2.8 for that matter) a smogger motor? Am I wrong? Nope. You'd have to to the same **** to a smogger v6, AND a smogger v8, and the v8 would benefit more from it. Am I wrong?
Poor flowing heads? less than 200hp? Wait, aern't the v6 heads poor flowing? Isn't the intake poor flowing? Wait! Less than 200hp! I really think a 3.1 only puts like 108hp to the rear and 140hp at crank. Snap!
Headers, intake, cam, and exhaust? your gonna do it to the v6 tho right? A v8 will get better power gains from the EXACT same mods, and probably cost less seeing as there aernt many aftermarket choices for the 60degree. Am I wrong?
EFI or Carb? To a certain degree yes, you are right. EFI is more effecient, and produces more power. BUT, only marginally. Ill spare the 3 extra hp for the ease and simplicity of a carb system. But guess what? That 3hp isn't going to make a damn. Its so little of a gain, I wouldn't even call it one.
And i will miss that .0186 miles per gallon as im flying past you, just because I went carb'd.
"V8 had it's day, the trend is shifting to smaller, more efficiant power plants that have more to offer than just power output."
More to offer than power output???? If were talking about gaining power (And we are just to let you know...) then why the hell would we look for a motor that doesn't? What does the 3.1 do better than the SBC? (within the realms of looking for more power?)
Am I wrong?
"Sorry, but that type of thinking is just, well, prehistoric, and so easy a caveman can do it! "
If its so easy a caveman could do it, then why not?
"That type of thinking"???
Ok, I take this road home every day from work. Right. Well, on the way, I have two choices, drive across this bridge, or drive through the creek... as it is how I get home... What do I do? I drive over the damn bridge? Wanna know why? Because its the most direct, effecient, and easy way for me to acheive my objective. So Street Lethal... Are you saying that you would take the Camaro for a swim???
i personally have my choice of engines but stuck with the v6.
if i wanted i could walk into my shop any day of the week and have my pick of anything from a 327 to a 454 bb or even bigger.
sad thing is stock most of the newer v6's put out more power then most of those engines stock
sitting on an engine stand in my shop right now is a 350hp factory 327 this is a factory hipo motor fromt he late 60's good heads,cam intake carb etc
fast foward to today now we have 3.6L v6's making over 300
hell we have other v6's making over 350 out of the factory n/a
it wont be long before factory v6 cars are over 400.
__________________ PRO FAB ENGINEERING - comming soon turbokits, supercharger kits, directport nitrous, cyl head porting, custom intakes, suspension parts ++ much more FORMER 60* V6 FBODY RECORD HOLDER 13.008@104.65@9 psi
I too have thought I had a bigger motor. Last week some kid thought I had a 400 in my truck. Its only a 4.3, and it was some kid that doesn't know **** about motors. Theres millions of those types, and it happens to everybody. Just don't see what they think as being true.
You could use comments like that to boost your ego or whatever, but in the end your still running that v6. period.
Yes I will still be running my V6, and proud of it, since I didn't follow the rest of the lemmings and put a v8 in my vehicle.
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Also, If someone had the parts laying around, yeah you could prolly beef up the v6 for cheaper. But most of us dont have 3.1 performance parts just "laying" around. Chances are, 90% of the chevy parts laying around are gonna be for a Small-Block v8. Therefore for the great majority, they'd have a easier and cheaper road going to a v8. Am I wrong?
Actually that's how my first V6 build started, I had a bunch of V6 parts laying around from different generations of the 660, and came to be a decent little power plant, and worked perfectly for what I wanted to do.
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Power? Smogger? First of all, if your wanting power, wouldnt you start with the most powerful choice possible? Not doing so your hindering yourself. You'll have to do so much more work to get half the power than if you were to go v8. Am I wrong?
You're not only wrong you're not talking based on facts.
Any v8 that is going to be $300 as your first post claims, IS going to be a smogger motor, which has poor output. If you want to start with something that has decent power potential out of the box you'll have to spend far more than $300, later SBCs ("Gen II as some people call them), still pull in a pretty penny, usually around $1000, even more if it's a 'Vette variant. Then there's the additinal cost of the tranny, rad, and many many more parts to swap to a V8, let alone the start of adding "performance parts". Which brings me to my next point, if the V8 is so great out of the box, why would it need any performance parts added to it? The way you speak of just slapping a v8 into a car it will be the best thing since wheels were made round.
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Smogger? Isn't the 3.1 (and the 2.8 for that matter) a smogger motor? Am I wrong? Nope. You'd have to to the same **** to a smogger v6, AND a smogger v8, and the v8 would benefit more from it. Am I wrong?
It's debatable how much each engine would benefit from the "same" changes. The 2.8 and 3.1 don't have the designations of being "smogger motors", since there reall was only one variation in each generation, with minor exceptions, like the early "H.O." 2.8, that was available in the Citation X11 and early Fiero, where in the later years of the genI 660 they all had the "H.O." designed heads, unlike the SBC, that had literally hundreds of variations, based on what emmisions or power outputs they were looking for in a particular model. The "smogger" v8s should have never been made, but since the American public is always about "More is better", GM continued to make a v8 with lower power output just to pacify the "more is better" crowd. It's quite pathetic to realize that these 4.3 to 5.0 L v8s were making the same power or less in comparision to smaller V6s of about half the displacement, in and around the same years.
GM never planned to use the 660 as a "performance" platform, but was used in several sanctioning bodies such as Midget racing where GM developed some specific performance parts to meet class rules, this is also where the development of the aluminium heads started from.
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Poor flowing heads? less than 200hp? Wait, aern't the v6 heads poor flowing? Isn't the intake poor flowing? Wait! Less than 200hp! I really think a 3.1 only puts like 108hp to the rear and 140hp at crank. Snap!
LOL, take a look at the pathetic outputs of some of the stock V8s being twice the displacement, should they have twice the power output? Most had at most 50% more power, showing less effciant use of the fuel being sprayed into the engine. The stock genI 660 are poor flowing in comparison to the genII or III variants, but that is why some of us have or will be using the newer heads and top end, if we really want to make some decent power.
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Headers, intake, cam, and exhaust? your gonna do it to the v6 tho right? A v8 will get better power gains from the EXACT same mods, and probably cost less seeing as there aernt many aftermarket choices for the 60degree. Am I wrong?
Again, you're making assumptions here.
It is true there aren't as many aftermarket suppliers for performance for the 660, but for those of us that ARE building these engines, do you really think that's a deterant? If it was, we'd be more lemmings and just go V8. There are also V8 parts that cost a lot more than anything would be for the V6, a friend of mine just bought a used 522, used with Big Chief heads, Jesel belt drive, the list is very long actually for $10000 USD, it's $25000 engine to build new, possibly more. It makes 1056 HP (I was at the dyno when it was ran). Some of the parts he's buying for it to frshen it, cost more than the entire V6 I can build, no it won't make 1000+ HP, but I don't want nor need 1000+ HP. So the cost factor is a poor argument IMO, since there are both ends of the spectrum available for SBC and the V6.
BTW, I could buy his old 522, that has conventional heads with a Fogger system, and a bunch of other decent parts, that lays down over 800 HP without the spray (over 1000 HP with the spray), for around $8000, but I don't want that much weight in my car or really need that much power. With the right suspension my car would be in the 7s (His car ran in the 8s with over 1200 more pounds of weight over what my car weighs). I really don't need to run that quickly.
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EFI or Carb? To a certain degree yes, you are right. EFI is more effecient, and produces more power. BUT, only marginally. Ill spare the 3 extra hp for the ease and simplicity of a carb system. But guess what? That 3hp isn't going to make a damn. Its so little of a gain, I wouldn't even call it one.
LOL, it's not all about power, there's a lot to be said for ease of drivability, and many other factors where EFI is far superior to any carb.
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And i will miss that .0186 miles per gallon as im flying past you, just because I went carb'd.
"V8 had it's day, the trend is shifting to smaller, more efficiant power plants that have more to offer than just power output."
More to offer than power output???? If were talking about gaining power (And we are just to let you know...) then why the hell would we look for a motor that doesn't? What does the 3.1 do better than the SBC? (within the realms of looking for more power?)
You're just not getting the fact that there's more to performance than just raw power output. Once you do, you might see why some of us choose to not use V8s.
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Am I wrong?
Yes.
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"Sorry, but that type of thinking is just, well, prehistoric, and so easy a caveman can do it! "
If its so easy a caveman could do it, then why not?
Because some of us actually like a challenge, or to find a different, new path to what our end goals are.
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"That type of thinking"???
Ok, I take this road home every day from work. Right. Well, on the way, I have two choices, drive across this bridge, or drive through the creek... as it is how I get home... What do I do? I drive over the damn bridge? Wanna know why? Because its the most direct, effecient, and easy way for me to acheive my objective. So Street Lethal... Are you saying that you would take the Camaro for a swim???
Didn't think so.
I don't see what you going over a bridge on your way home has to do with our choice to build or use V6s.
It sounds to me more like you want to justify to yourself that you made the proper choice to go with a V8. If you're happy with it, good, but don't tell us we are wrong for wanting to use a different choice than you. We don't tell you you are wrong to use a v8 for your application, just that your facts about the v6s or capabilities are wrong.
How about this, go and rag on the Buick 3.8 guys in thier Grandnationals, The 1.6L guys in thier Hondas, the 4.3L guys in thier S-10s, the 3.5L guys in thier Supras, and better yet, go and tell the guys that are running BBCs that they made a bad choice, since the SBC to you is the end all be all of engines......
Yeah, it's because of guys like you that we want to differentiate ourselves FROM you, not be assumed to be in that group of "bigger is always better".
Hm, I know the fuel pump I will be using came out of a 9 second V6 car.
Fastest v6 that I personally know of made several mid-6 second passes with 3.5 liters in a RWD Cavilier.
92rs3.1, what exactly is the point here? Yes there is more potential to make power easier with a bigger engine. Tell us something we don't know. All this jibber-japper and I have not seen a valid point yet.
You can drive over your bridge, with your head hung in shame, right after the Corsica I built last year got done smoking your $300 V8...
I cant wait to get all the parts for this turbo install lol ill be the first 18 yr old kid to install a turbo in his daily driver right in the driveway under jackstands.
nixon i should be able to make it up on saturday, i got some extra parts for u as well
__________________ PRO FAB ENGINEERING - comming soon turbokits, supercharger kits, directport nitrous, cyl head porting, custom intakes, suspension parts ++ much more FORMER 60* V6 FBODY RECORD HOLDER 13.008@104.65@9 psi
I cant wait to get all the parts for this turbo install lol ill be the first 18 yr old kid to install a turbo in his daily driver right in the driveway under jackstands.
I regret to inform you that you can't be the first since I did it 5 years ago this summer... except it was twin turbos... on blocks of wood... halfway in the dirt... in August... with a 103deg fever all week. At least when I had to call out of work I was actually sick so it saved me the embarassment of not having a ride.
Oh, and did I mention uphill both ways for 10 miles in the snow with bare feet, haha!
lol alright then ill be the second. It should be a fun project.
Extra parts are always good dave and saturday should be fine for me my cell phone dont work as of now so just pm me the time an place an ill mapquest it.
yep im pretty much copying your idea with the intercooler under the bumper the only thing i am going to do different is the oil return im gonna try an buy a shurflo pump to pump it back to the oil fill cap welding that pan seems like a pain.
yep im pretty much copying your idea with the intercooler under the bumper the only thing i am going to do different is the oil return im gonna try an buy a shurflo pump to pump it back to the oil fill cap welding that pan seems like a pain.
Won't work. The oil drain has to drain the oil into the engine at a lower level than the turbo itself.
i offered to give him a oil pan with a fitting already welded into the pan, but he dosent want to take the pan off.
hed have to pull the pan to install the bulkhead fitting as well
the pump shouldnt be 2 bad to do, nice solid mount for it and power/ground wires
i would suggest a small catch can/sump pre pump this will allow for oil to collect inthe pan when u shut the motor down and not back up into the turbo.
u dont need it though worst that would happen would be a lil bit of smoke on startup
__________________ PRO FAB ENGINEERING - comming soon turbokits, supercharger kits, directport nitrous, cyl head porting, custom intakes, suspension parts ++ much more FORMER 60* V6 FBODY RECORD HOLDER 13.008@104.65@9 psi
ill just wire it up so that the pump turns on when the ignition is on so after i turn the car off i can turn the key 2 clicks an let the pump run for a few secs.
that's hard on a turbo though nixon. the oil is what's taking away the heat from the turbo. and just shutting down and pulling the only form of coolant away from a very hot shaft and bushing is asking for trouble. i've replaced turbo's that cost twice what my car cost just because some trucker was impatient and didn't want to give the truck 3 minutes to pull heat away from that turbo. personally, i'd run a turbo timer just to let it cool down. i really don't think you'd want to be going through too many turbos
if ur driving and u know ur getting to ur destination shortly just take it easy for the last 1-2 miles and that will suffitiatly cool the turbo
now if u goto the race track u dont want to make a pass then imideatly shut down the car.but typically ur idling threw the pits for 2-3 mins to get back to ur spot anyway.
thats generally long enough for the turbo to cool back down
in 4-5 years my car has been turbo i have never had a turbo timmer in my car
__________________ PRO FAB ENGINEERING - comming soon turbokits, supercharger kits, directport nitrous, cyl head porting, custom intakes, suspension parts ++ much more FORMER 60* V6 FBODY RECORD HOLDER 13.008@104.65@9 psi
DOH! I totally missed you saying "pump" it back
