V6Discussion and questions about the base carbureted or MPFI V6's and the rare SFI Turbo V6.
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just a couple of simple questions... i was wondering what my compression would be with stock 2.8l pistons with gen2 heads? and i would also need an intake right? does the intake have a hole for the distributor? and after that would i be able to use the same wires with those heads and intake? would i need a custom chip? with the powermax (264/264 advertised duration) cam would i need a custom tune? thanks ahead for the info!
You need to do some searching all of those questions have been answered.
I don't recall what the SCR will be with the stock iron head 2.8L pistons, north of 11:1 IIRC.
Yes, the matching intake will be needed. At this point skip over the genII top end and go straight to a 3400 (or large port 3100) genIII top end.
The dizzy will not fit with genII or III intake. Incedentally there is no hole for the dizzy on any 660 intake. The dizzy mounts directly to the block.
You will need the oil pump drive stub from a FWD genII or III engine.
Spark plug wires will be the least of your worries in this endevour.
well my biggest worry is the wires and computer... i have seen pictures of a gen2 intake with a distributor... least i think... but what will be the biggest issue? i can tell the machine shop to put 3.1 pistons with the dish in it and deck the block to compensate... so i would THINK that my biggest worry is if my current computer is able to work with the heads and intake... but not too sure...
No, there isn't enough space to physically fit a dizzy. DIS is the only way, or a custom dizzy, which is what you might have seen. I haven't found a supplier for the a custom offset or 90* 660 dizzy, so it would need to be custom.
DIS is much easier.
Ditch your stock ECM, it should be the '165 IIRC.
Swapping to a '7730 and running the stock FWD genII 2.8 or 3.1 would be a great step in the right direction. Besides there's no point in putting together a combination only to be limited by what the "tune" is in the ECM. That's like getting a High definition TV, and watching TV through using rabbit ears. Yeah it'll work, but it won't be the best it can be.
Your best bet is to start with a 3.4 block from a 4th gen F-body ('93 to '95), since it has a spot in the block for the DIS crank trigger, the crank has the built in reluctor wheel, and you get the added bonus of more displacement.
To use the earlier 2.8 or 3.1 RWD blocks will require a custom external crank trigger. AFAIK, I'm the only person to have such a crank trigger.
alright. what would compression be with a 3.4l? could a gen3 intake be used with gen2 heads? i know gen3 heads are MUCH better but i already got me a set of fully ported and polished gen2 heads. and will my stock fuel pump be good or would i need one from like say a 305 or 350 car?
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and what car would be the best to get the computer and harness from?
Last edited by oxrabidus; 11-04-2008 at 06:10 AM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
...but like most other projects, it never went anywhere. Either way, I believe that the fuel rail wouldn't allow it to fit anyway. Not to mention I dont think he even checked to see if it would clear the UIM.
And your fuel pump is good just for a head swap.
...but like most other projects, it never went anywhere. Either way, I believe that the fuel rail wouldn't allow it to fit anyway. Not to mention I dont think he even checked to see if it would clear the UIM.
And your fuel pump is good just for a head swap.
well i an doing the head swap, headers, cat back, and cam... plus i an thinking 3.4l if there is no easier way to do DIS... still good with my fuel pump you think? and my stock t5 should be ok? i dont think it will make the torque to break it but you never know... im only looking to make around 190 to 200 horses hopefully...
...but like most other projects, it never went anywhere. Either way, I believe that the fuel rail wouldn't allow it to fit anyway. Not to mention I dont think he even checked to see if it would clear the UIM.
And your fuel pump is good just for a head swap.
Using that idea and "completion" level of the project I had a dizzy fitting the genIII LIM. I just cut the #6 runner until it fit to see how much would need to be cut away, turns out the #6 runner would be completly blocked by the time material was welded back in to "reseal" the runner.
Then the fuel rail would hit the dizzy and would require a custom fuel rail, then the UIM would need to be modified to clear the dizzy.
So in either case a dizzy will not fit the genII or genIII intakes.
No the genIII intake will not fit the genII heads.
Do yourself a favour, sell those genII heads and buy some genIII top end parts, stock the genIII parts will outflow a ported genII top end, except for some extremly ported genII parts, in which case the intake will STILL be a restriction. The genII intake is very restrictive and has always been the weak point for anyone that has tried to get power out of a complet genII set-up.
BTW I have a bunch of genIII parts you might be interested in. I'm selling cheap, just because I don't want to look at the parts anymore.
well i an not looking to make a billion horses... like i said i would be happy with stock 305 power i guess like 200-210... i think it is possible... considering i get a 3.4l block which has like 160 to begin with... and i got the heads nearly free from a good reliable place...
Using that idea and "completion" level of the project I had a dizzy fitting the genIII LIM. I just cut the #6 runner until it fit to see how much would need to be cut away, turns out the #6 runner would be completly blocked by the time material was welded back in to "reseal" the runner.
Then the fuel rail would hit the dizzy and would require a custom fuel rail, then the UIM would need to be modified to clear the dizzy.
So in either case a dizzy will not fit the genII or genIII intakes.
No the genIII intake will not fit the genII heads.
Do yourself a favour, sell those genII heads and buy some genIII top end parts, stock the genIII parts will outflow a ported genII top end, except for some extremly ported genII parts, in which case the intake will STILL be a restriction. The genII intake is very restrictive and has always been the weak point for anyone that has tried to get power out of a complet genII set-up.
BTW I have a bunch of genIII parts you might be interested in. I'm selling cheap, just because I don't want to look at the parts anymore.
but just out of curiosity... what do you have? and how much?
so you dont think it could be done with a gen2 top end? or is that JUST with a head and intake swap... because like i said an getting the powermax cam for the 660 and headers... you dont think its possible even with that?
While it is possible with the genII top end it takes a LOT of work to do so. The genII intake is VERY restrictive, and is the weak link in the genII design. The problem is there's only one (readily) available intake that will mate with the genII heads, and that's the OEM intake. Franz, an early 660 enthusiats did a LOT of work to his genII 3.1 and was barely able to touch 200 HP N/A. He knew it was the intake limiting him.
GenIII top end on a 3.1 with a proper tune will generally get to 200 HP, without too much effort. Using a RWD 3.4 and leaving those pistons for higher SCR should net a little more, though the SCR that will be seen with the stock RWD 3.4 pistons and the genII/III heads, is usually said to be a bit high for pump gas. That being said I have tuned a 3400 in a Cavalier that has around 12.5:1 SCR, running on pump gas, gets great milage, and works well. We plan to do a power tune next year, just didn't have time to get together again to get that far. He lives over an hour away. BTW, he drives the car everywhere, he would be at a different car show or cruise meet at least 5 nights a week in the summer, all accross Sounthern Ontario and New York state, a couple he mentioned were in Ohio.
As far as what I have, I have 3 or 4 sets of heads, 4 LIMs, 2 UIMs, throttle bodies, etc. I only have one fuel rail, but I could get more without much issue. PM me if you're interested.
Go Gen3 if you are going to go through the trouble of a top end swap, and don't look back
Follow Six's advice and nab a '7730 ECM, it will control your DIS just like it controls the distributor with a little re-wiring.
I will soon have external DIS wheels availabe comercially and we will all benefit from it, but until then the 3.4 block is the best option (and you'll be way ahead of the game plan, trust me).
i just may'.. if six_shooter is selling parts at a good price... if not then i will work with what i got until i can build my v8... how much have you seen 3.4l with gen3 top ends make? that will also be a big thing for me whether i actually do it or not... im not gonna spend 1000 bucks for something like 210 horsepower... i dont wanna sound like a ****... but you know what i mean?
one thing i was just thinking about... would i need a custom tune for the cam i am getting with the 7730 computer? its the crane powermax with 264/274 advertised duration and 204/214 duration at .050...
yes its with the gen2... have you heard of WOT-tech? they have a gen2 intake that is ported and has an opening for a 56mm throttle body... and it only costs 150... they say its the best flowing gen2 intake around... (but who wouldnt say that...)
Ben does do good work and has a flow bench to help him be consistant/accurate on the work he does. You will soon be seeing some of my products on his store
Ben does do good work and has a flow bench to help him be consistant/accurate on the work he does. You will soon be seeing some of my products on his store
is ben the guy from WOT-tech? how can i contact him? i dont remember seeing a contact link on the page... i would like to ask him some questions...
Actually his stock ecm is either an '870 or '302. '86 was the changeover year for the crappy '870 to the slightly less dizmal '302. He really can't do enough tuning with the stock ecm to make it worth his while either way.
A much simpler solution is swapping to a '165 like I did. You don't need to switch the wiring harness or maf's- just repin, program your chip and you're ready to go. Maf is a much easier system to tune, esp. for a novice. But if perfection is what you want map is the way to go.
Get yourself a 3.4 block, 3400 top end and late model 3400 pistons then do a little research to get started. You can easily get 200 horses with a mild cam.
