V6Discussion and questions about the base carbureted or MPFI V6's and the rare SFI Turbo V6.
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what are some cheap and easy ways to get power out of the 2.8 v6 in my '88 Camaro? i know there are probably threads on here with this info. i've seen TomP's major tune up and intake and exhaust mods are the first obvious choice after the tune up. but after that i'm lost. i'm new to this forum and Camaro's in general.(first one i've ever owned) at first i was considering a v8 swap but decided to go a different route and keep the v6 after reading a few threads on here. sounded like more fun and more challenging. i don't want to go extreme on it because the goal is for a fun DD. thanks in advance
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once you move past the basics (intake and exhaust), theres no "cheap and easy" way to make power out of these little motors... unless you spray it of course
basically after the boltons are done you have two options:
+1, goals are good.
To have a fun DD you wont need much beyond intake, exhaust, headers, UDP, Ford injectors, Roller rockers aren't too hard, and maybe get a good P&P job done.
Turbo's, V8 swaps, hybrid engines, these are all things that are involved and expensive. If you don't have the tools, time, and money to pretty much rebuild your engine then you won't be doing them. I realized I didn't want to get that deep into the engine on this car. I'd rather have a good running car, little faster than stock, that looks good.
i would like to be able to go to the drag strip make some decent times and drive it home without killing myself. maybe my choice of words wasn't the best. i'm pretty experienced with engine work so heads and cam swap is easy for me. how much does that cost for this engine? where do i find these parts? and i would like to keep it NA. a turbo setup maybe way in the future. also keep in mind i'm still in the planning stage.
Last edited by bob15446; 09-12-2009 at 11:19 PM.
Reason: thought of stuff to add
again, what are your specific goals? as in E/T and mph at the track, and hp #s
these cars run around 17 secs in the 1/4 stock. boltons (intake, exhaust, gears, rockers, torque converter, tires, suspention) will get you 15s. a cam swap with some head porting will get you 14s... maybe
any faster than that and you need some kind of forced induction, either N2O or turbo
ok...well i can't really set specific goals because i don't know a lot about these engines. if 170-200hp is possible without turbo that would be nice. but that is why i'm asking. i don't know a lot about these engines. i've read a few threads and they all contradict each other.
ill agree with you about the contradicting threads. ive done some searching for track times with these motors and theres not alot. and what little there is, is very old. doesnt seem like many people go out and drag race these cars after modding
if your looking for that kind of power (under 200hp), i believe you can do it with some mild head porting, a cam swap, and boltons. thats all it should really take to bump the stock 135hp rating to the levels youre seeking
Alot of the gains you'll get wont be shown by HP numbers, you'll just be able to feel them and see results in times. UDP, intake, and exhaust (basicly what I have) won't net you alot of HP, but it'll help your engine rev and overcome one of the 3.1/2.8's biggest problems, a gutless high end.
If you're wanting to drag this car a good shift kit will make a world of difference on 700r4, you didn't say weather you had an auto or 5 speed.
You can get most performace parts at summit. They have a nice setup you plug in your car and they give you a list of perfomace parts to pick from Headers are like PaceSetter Performance 278.39
You have a automatic, I'd say get a shiftkit The best shifter kit is the Transgo
You're forgetting gears. Get 3.73's and some F1ZE injectors (link (Ditch your stock injectors!)) and you'll notice an immediate difference. Matter of fact of all the basic things I've done to my car the injectors made the most noticeable immediate improvement. Then do a '165 ecm swap (link (V6 owners, take a look)), headers and some trans improvements (link (Improving early Th700's)) and you'll be set. I should link all the crap I've written together in a stickie or something so v6'ers have a good guide to those 'how do I make my car faster' questions we get all the time.
haven't heard of anyone doing it(haven't looked either!), but have you considered a 4.3 swap? it would allow you to keep it a V6, but also make reaching your HP goals much easier. I'm not sure how much aftermarket there is for the motor, but I'm sure theres something with all of these S10's running around, you may even be able to use a set of shorty headers off an s10. they're also cheap and plentiful, I see them on craigslist here in pensacola on a regular basis. just my two cents
Personally I would stick with the 60 degree V6, either do a hybrid or convert to a full 4th gen 3.4L. If you overbore it and since you want to stay N.A. you can increase your compression with custom forged pistons up to around 11:1 or slightly higher. I would suggest doing either a small block chevy connecting rod conversion or having custom forged rods done to match your pistons. I would also suggest blowing the $500+ on a Megasquirt computer (MS2), this will allow you to change both your fuel and ignition maps as well as your rev limited.. You will also need a set or larger injectors from probably a 5.0, they should be yellow. Nitrous is also a good choice for street strip engines if you don't go crazy. All this without your nitrous along with the port/polish, headers, high flow cat and muffler, and proper tuning/balancing you could see easy 300+. With the nitrous I wouldn't go more then about 100hp shot but thats just me.
Personally I would stick with the 60 degree V6, either do a hybrid or convert to a full 4th gen 3.4L. If you overbore it and since you want to stay N.A. you can increase your compression with custom forged pistons up to around 11:1 or slightly higher. I would suggest doing either a small block chevy connecting rod conversion or having custom forged rods done to match your pistons. I would also suggest blowing the $500+ on a Megasquirt computer (MS2), this will allow you to change both your fuel and ignition maps as well as your rev limited.. You will also need a set or larger injectors from probably a 5.0, they should be yellow. Nitrous is also a good choice for street strip engines if you don't go crazy. All this without your nitrous along with the port/polish, headers, high flow cat and muffler, and proper tuning/balancing you could see easy 300+. With the nitrous I wouldn't go more then about 100hp shot but thats just me.
I'm not gooing to lie, that sounds like a ton of work and money, custom forged pistons and rods aren't cheap. and at the end of the day, its just another 60* V6, If I was going to put that much work into it, I would want it to stand out more than a 60* V6. maybe a buick V6, but I don't think that would be right in a camaro. my vote goes 4.3 or swap a V8.
Well they did put the 3.8L 90 degree Buick Grand National engine into 89 Firebirds but you start to run into issues with fuel systems other then stock or carbs. Personally I have never played with the 4.3L and don't know enough about them to say its a good or bad idea. The custom rods if you use modified small block rods can be done at a local machine shop for about $20.00 per rod on top of the rod cost. The custom pistons I got my turbo pistons for $300.00 for the set. With engine balancing I am not sure what others charge I did mine myself but I had all the tools.
The sad truth is that if you want to stick with a V6, it really doesn't matter what one you go with, building power either takes boost, a great deal of money or both. High end parts are are never overly cheap. So you can either shell out between 800 and 2000 bucks for a turbo or supercharger setup and have 300-500hp or build your power through RPM and compression. Both options will shorten the life span of any engine. The only other thing is to do a V8 conversion, that can cost a great deal of money, engine pending and the cost of a whole new transmission along with other parts. The choice is up to you.
the OP stated all that he really wanted was somewhere around 170 - 200 hp. that can be accomplished by boltons, some head porting, and a cam swap. if more power is wanted, a small shot (50 - 75) would work nicely
this is about the cheapest, easiest way to get the levels hes looking for. a motor swap wouldnt be necessary for the roughly 250hp and 14 sec E/T (with N2O) hed get from this combo
Why v8 rods? The factory 60* v6 rods are forged. You won't need better rods until you're above ~400hp. There's hybrid swaps out there eclipsing the 300hp mark at 6000+ rpm with stock rods & pistons. Forged pistons aren't really a nececity, just good insurance. As long as you're sure you won't run into pre ign / detonation stock pistons are fine. You can stick with oem ecm's and spend way less than a megasquirt. A '730 w/ code $59 is perfect for boost, either a '165 w/ $6E or a '730 w/ S_AUJP_V4 is excellent for a n/a motor.
I don't like gm's 90* v6's as a rule. The turbo 3.8's were neat in their day and there's great aftermarket support for them but they get real expensive real fast.
4.3's have the displacement advantage but there's hardly anything out there for them and I really look at them as a lazy truck motor anyway. They generally aren't screamers.
60* v6's offer the best overall value and potenital because of the glut of good oem parts out there from being used in almoast every gm car since the late 80's and decent aftermarket support. Natural balance and good internals make them capable of high rpm use and late model fwd heads/induction make them breathe on par with aftermarket heads. You don't need to go with tons of aftermarket parts to get good performance out of these motors, and that keeps cost down. But you really need to be a DIY'er to get what you want out of them.
As far as cheap and easy goes n20 is always a good choice. Gearing, tuning and less invasive things like headers/ex and lightening will get you into the 15 sec zone.
4.3's have the displacement advantage but there's hardly anything out there for them and I really look at them as a lazy truck motor anyway. They generally aren't screamers.
I have to dissagree,
the rods, pistons, bearing, lifters, link bars, push rods, timing sets, timing covers, valves, valvesprings, rockers, and I'm sure many more parts all interchange with the smallblock chevy, and don't try to tell me there's no aftermarket for that motor!
and honestly, I think they are pretty tough little motors, I had one in a 4500 lb astro van, and quite frankly that thing would get up and go for what it was.
as far as not having a multi-port intake available goes, check out the TBI board, look at some of the motors fast355 has built, some very respectable numbers being put down by motors that people say aren't worth their scrap weight.
I'm not saying that the 2.8/3.1 motors are junk by any means, just that it would be nice to see something different, heres another Idea I don't know if anyone has tried, what about the DOHC heads off of the Z-26 monte carlos?
So my question is with a turbo to get max boost for a reasonable cost where is the cutoff on internal upgrades where the cost of beefing up the next part will give me limited hp gains with the turbo for the cost. What kind of tune up exactly do I need to do. And where internaly is the best place to start beefing up specifically for the turbo?
I didn't read everything that has been posted but I did see some things I have to disagree with (just cause I've been there). NOT trying to point fingers or call anyone out...
A stock 3.1 probably will run 17s. Bolt ons will probably get you mid 16s. A GOOD cam and some serious port work, a high stall convertor, and some gears will get you down into the mid/low 15s. I never got out of the 15.1s until I built my custom upper intake manifold which finally got me a 14.97 1/4 mile. That is with stock injectors and basically a stock tune on the computer.
As was stated, these motors do have forged rods in them from the factory. Pistons, I would get some hyper... ( i forget the actual name but most after market pistons are the same now days). There's no need for forged pistons unless you're gonna spray it a lot of run a lot of boost.
I would not recommend shooting for 11:1 compression as was mentioned, either. I had 10.75:1 in my motor, ran 93 octane all the time and had spark knock issues at certain rpm/loads which I am confident cause my motor issues that I have now (I believe to be a cracked piston).
These motors are pretty cheap to build (unlike the 4.3s) and will produce some decent hp numbers when done right. 4.3s are decent motors but I wouldn't spend the money to try to build one, either.
Hope this has some helpful tips...
__________________ highly modded 3.1.....
best 1/8 mile time...9.51@74 mph
2.04 60' on street tires
I am slightly confused bl85c, you say you don't as a rule like the GM 90 degree engines yet the 4.3L is just such an engine.
?? I don't like 4.3's. What gave you that idea?
ericjon262- there's alot of interchangeability between sbc parts & 4.3's, but you don't see many heads, cams, manifolds and the other crap you need to make it breathe. Not saying it's not out there, just not common. I suppose you could hack up sbc heads or something... just not a popular motor. Alot of interchangeability between sbc parts & 60* v6's too. DOHC motors have their own block specifically designed for them and they won't work on others. Some people have done DOHC swaps but they're an all around headache to work on.
MitcherNeaf- you can put mild boost on it just like it is without worrying about the stock internals as long as they're in good shape. The induction is fairly restrictive and the stock cam tops out pretty low so those are going to clamp how much pressure you can put to it and still get a reasonable gain without heating the air up too much. If you really want serious boost you need less restrictive induction and a better valvetrain, then consider forged pistons and other stuff if you really want to get crazy. Personally I wouldn't want to put alot of boost on iron heads without methanol injection.
Why would anyone want to swap a 4.3 into an f-body, why? If you were going to go as far as doing a whole engine swap stick a V8 in there. Why do all the swap for just to have another V6?
4.3's are good engines though, for trucks. They're alot more rugged than the 2.8/3.1 and have featuers you'd look for in a off road V6. There's a reason GM put 4.3's in Jimmy's and Blazers and put 3.1's in F-bodies. I had a jimmy with a 4.3 and loved it, great off-road potential.
And ericjon262, a built 3.1/2/8 is not common. You would stand out from the crowd of fast V8 and slow v6 F-bodies with one.
I don't think it'll be any different having a built 3.1, it's still another slow F-body, lets face it, 170- 200 HP in a F-body doesn't equal fast, an L03 with bolt ons and a tune could do more than that. by the time you have a built 3.1, you've probably spent nice 350 money, for a motor that would be less reliable, and slower, with nowhere left to go. at least with a 4.3 he could get to the power level he wants without power adders, hell, just the stock motor can het him pretty damn close, 190 hp, 250 ft lbs. and at the end of the day he could say that he has the only one.
me, I would do a V8 swap, but if I wanted to keep it a V6 like the OP, I would go 4.3, but thats just me.
Last edited by ericjon262; 09-14-2009 at 06:39 AM.
Tehe 4.3 requires a swap to a 90* (V8) trans anyway along with the accesory setup and a new wiring harness to run the distributor (most of the V6's are DIS.
A DOHC swap is intriguing the 3.4 from the W bodies or the 3.5 Olds/caddy V6 (shortstar) or even the northstar it's self.
All make 200+ HP stock, all use the 60* bellhousing pattern, (the north and shortstars require a bit of grinding to clearange the trans for the starter snout and usualy an electric waterpump) and have the top end flow that the pushrod motors lack.
The north/shortstars also have a largish aftermarket due to the Street rod and dune buggy scene.
some of you guys seem to be missing the point. i'm not trying to set any land speed or quarter mile records here. i'm going for something different. let's say i was to swap a 350cid into it; why would i want only 200hp? i'm just as power hungry as the next guy when i comes to cars, i was putting out a reasonable goal for the project at hand. it is just something different, obviously not the fastest, just....different. and it fits my budget better because if i did a v8 swap, i would be tying to make that thing all but fly
Most of us understand your goals and have been there. Some advice from my years of goals, plan ahead. Make sure that whatever part you bolt on wont just have to be replaced 2 stages or so later, its a waste of money.
i am planning way ahead. i haven't even started any engine work yet. i've only had the car for about 4 months. haven't had time since i bought it and i've just recently started working on the interior. i know the engine is good. i drove it the day after i got it home. right now all it needs is a water pump and a battery to get it running. after that i'll do TomP's tuneup and then start modifying the engine which may be 2-3 weeks or more away depending on how fast i can get the interior done. but now at least i have a plan in my head
First of all, I'd recommend actually using the power that you have now, as in a lightweight carbon fiber or aluminum driveshaft, some lower gears, do a manual transmission swap if it's an automatic.
200 horsepower through a high mileage automatic transmission, with a heavy steel driveshaft, and steep differential gears may end up seeming like less than 100 horsepower.
That's the route I'm heading down, after I get my paint touched up in certain spots, get the car basically looking nice enough to show, I'll be saving up for a PST carbon fiber driveshaft, and a T-56 swap, then starting on the actual engine.
Actually using the power I already have might be good enough for me or anyone else, who knows.
as much as i would like a manual tranny, i would just rather have the auto rebuilt or replaced and install a shift kit. the lighter driveshaft is a good idea. and plus the one time i did get to drive it, the transmission shifted great and the car felt like it had decent power considering it being a V6.
just out of curiosity, are there more performance options for the 3.1?
Following the advice in this forum, I ended up with a build that I thrilled with. I even turn off the stereo just to listen to the engine.
well due to money issues, i'm not any further than the day i posted this thread. i still have quite a bit of work to do before i can really get into the performance aspect.
. and saving money
the 3.4 from the W bodies or the 3.5 Olds/caddy V6 (shortstar) or even the northstar it's self.
