redsledd

Ive watched you guys for some time now but just recently decided to sign up. Why mess with a 2.8? All I ever heard about those motors is bad. The people I know that had one (jeep, s10, firebird) either blew it up or put in a v8. You all are either crazy or stubborn. Like me.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

IMHO, any multi-port 2.8 or 3.1 is a great motor. The carbed/tbi 2.8 on the other hand...

redsledd

Why would you want to mess with one when you could have a v8 that makes 2x the power and still have more to work with?

Roc THIS

I once heard any idiot can make a V8 fast , but it takes a smart idiot to make a V6 fast.

Honestly I wouldnt mind making a nice little turboed V6 third gen . I honestly think they are pretty cool.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

They're lighter weight but also I think it appeals to people that like to tinker and also try something different.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

oh good grief... I know you're probably a troll, but I'm going to waste a few minutes of my time responding to you, then you can ignore everything I say because you can't comprehend what I'm saying, and we can both move on with our lives. that sound OK to you? then fine...

first thing you have to understand is not everybody feels like they have to make up for shortcomings in their life by driving around like their pants are on fire. Some us are just fine and happy driving around the city normally, going with the flow of traffic, and maybe opening it up a little on the highway fom time to time, but not fast enough to get us arrested in case we do get pulled over...

the second thing you should know is the MPFI engine is a great engine. It is incredibly reliable in stock form, will easily make way beyond 200K or even 300K miles if properly taken care of, and will get over 25MPG on the highway. that's no small feat in a car as heavy as the 3rd gen

here's something else you probably won't understand. it's easy to work on. there's enough space under the hood for you to practically crawl in there with it while changing the water pump, fan motor, or whatever else comes up

one last things that you should know. While everyone else is spending thousands on v8 cars because you think you aren't a man unless you have 8 spark plugs under the hood, I can buy a car for hundreds in better condition than the basket case you just bought, and enjoy the crap out of it for years. I paid $900 for my car, have done some work inside and out, and have easily doubled the value of the car. I may have already maxed out the value of the car, but that's fine. I didn't buy it to race, I didn't buy it to resell it, I bought it to cruise down the road in a car that I have always enjoyed the looks of, and to walk through a parking lot, see a sea of cars, but have MINE be the one that I see and say to myself "oh yeah, that's the one I want to drive home"

I want to have a car that I can take my hot wife out on a date night in, or in a couple of years loan to my son so he can go out on a date himself, without me worriing about sending him out in a car that has too much power for him to handle

Don't come in here with your whole TWO posts and start bashing the choices other have made, K?

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

hahahahahaha

have to add something though, becuase when i park at a car show or at a cruise in there isnt a single car like mine, becuase i wanted something diffrent, becuase i wanted something that people like you wouldnt understand, especially when it flies by your buddys "v8" like its standing still you can still say ah its still a v6 whats the point.

havent you been on here before, got banned for the same stupid questions and posts

58mark

iTrader: (3)

after I paint my car, (and do a little more under the hood) I'm going to enjoy popping the hood at car shows, because I've got this to show off. I don't care that it's slow. NOBODY has one like this... at least that I've ever seen'

Project 3.4 Camaro

Actually not so sure that guy is a troll, he pulled a 0 on the ******* and retard meter, usually the dead giveaways of a troll.
That being said he might be trying to justify sinking money into a six, or wondering if it has a lot of potential. And to answer the question, in 2 decades when I have my dream engine finished I'll be able to show you...until then, consider that a 3000 gt vr4 can make 900 AWHP(on an AWD car...) out of a 3.0 dohc, no reason I can't make my minimum goal of 650 hp, and with these kinds of power levels, honestly does it really matter what size engine it is if it has the power you want? And even if you did want more, think about how many people actually build their v8s past 700hp, unless its a dedicated drag car its equally rare.
Other than that, these engines are naturally balanced, making them reliable, smooth running, and quick revving. They are small and easy to work on as someone else mentioned, I have on MANY occasions stood in my engine bay to work on it. Weight distribution is freaking awesome, I would say at least 50% of the engine weight is behind the front wheels, its lighter than a cast iron v8, better on gas when you aren't on it heavy, even with a modded car. It's different, gives you something to tinker with, and when all is said and done and I have my 3.4/3500 turbocharged hybrid with titanium connecting rods, forged crank, forged aluminum pistons, crank scraper, windage tray, aluminum pullies, titanium valves, stiff valve springs, full roller aluminum rockers, huge cam, and whatever the hell else I'm not thinking of atm, and walk all over some exotic supercar I will be grinning like the biggest idiot ever.

redsledd

No bashing here I just don't understand it, but I have to say that looks pretty good. Mustv been alot of hours in polishing. I took a look at my buddy's v6 firebird and it didn't look too easy to work on. I asked him how to get the valvecovers off without taking the manifold off and he said you don't. That sounds pretty crappy to me. Eventually a carb sbc went in there because he wanted to go faster. I don't need to go fast myself, just a slow cushy ride is enough but thats because I ave a heavy tbi camaro. I'm not disillusioned by the 170 horses it makes but I know there's alot more to be had if I want it without needing a turbo or nitrous oxide. There's only so much you can put through a little motor. I saw someone talking about putting front wheel drive parts on one of these motors because they are better but I wouldn't know about that. Said they could get 300 horses out of it but that sounds like a tale to me. Is there anyone that actually made one of these things that has numbers to prove it?

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

ok ill give you a chance...but im still almost positive youve been banned before

most people building the hybrids are doing just that...still building, im not to sure that anyone has any numbers posted yet

neither engine v6 or v8 is a cake walk to work on they all have there crappy areas.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Also, I don't know of an engine that you don't have to remove the upper intake to get to the VCs on, not to say they don't exist, just haven't seen it, less you have a carb. A high CR N/A hybrid(fwd aluminum heads) with a large cam should make about that much at the crank, we need to get BL85C to get his car dynoed :P

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Sounds like this guy should go on some of the midget racing boards and ask the same question. A lot of those guys use the mighty little 60* V6, which is why racing parts companies make racing parts for us (other than for fuel injection). Because of the weight issue.

Let's say this. The 60* has lower weight with better weight distribution, can handle 7000 RPM with stock bottom end parts (but it's a pain finding valvetrain components), and gets better mileage than a V8 even if both are making 1.5 HP per cubic inch. And, as said above, can go for a VERY long time if well taken care of. Yes, our early FI engines are a pain to work on. GM solved that with the FWD 60*. There's a reason why the new Camaro and Caddy's have one, even if they are DOHC.

Yes, going hybrid is a PITA. But it's a challenge and it's different. Just about any idiot can slap a couple performance parts on a V8 and go fast. It takes some brains to put together a fast 60*.

Oh, and the 3.4 installed in the 93-95 Camaros only made 10 HP less than your TBI engine. And the FWD 3400 makes more. That's why the V6.

:edit: And, as for the "tale" of the fast hybrid making 300HP, you should talk to Project89... I believe he's in the 12's, last I heard. There's another guy on here who has a Cavalier hybrid that makes gobs of power as well.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Oh and I forgot to mention that 4bangers can make 400-500 or so HP, and a nissan skyline with an inline 6 can make something like 700-800 I believe, but the 3000gt as I mentioned, I know for a fact can make 900+ AWHP with a 3.0.

redsledd

I can get the covers off my tbi 305 without removing the manifold. Lots of motors can. You can't make that kind of power out of a small motor without power adders or very free flowing induction and lots of rpm. The stuff on the 2.8's looks no different than anything else that came out of the smog era. Choked up crap.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Tell you what. Go to a Caddy dealer and find one of their DOHC 2.8 engines and then say the same thing. Or a Chevy dealer and say the same about the Camaro's 3.6. Yes, our old engines are smog choked. The newer ones have heads that flow better stock with flaws and all than the old iron boat anchors fully ported and polished. Again, talk to Project89. He does this stuff for a living. He should know what he's talking about.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I think the confusion has to do with the difference between what we call 3x00 parts (fwd stuff) and the earlier iron head garbage. For perspective, the intake side on the iron heads flow less than the exhaust side on 3x00 heads. Even early 3400/3100 heads flow on par with LT1 heads, 3500 heads are even better. I haven't taken my new motor to the track yet (still need to change out the plenum & throttle for 3500 stuff and a 65mm throttle) so we'll see what it can do on it's own. Then comes twin t3/t4's.

Fallen2603

For some of us, going fast in a straight line, gets BORING. Sure, I like going fast in a straight line, but I like carving corners more. A big heavy V8 in the front end puts a bigger kink in weight distribution and handling than having a nice V6 in their. To many of us, the V6 is a cheaper place to start. Some of us simply can't afford to go out and buy a V8 and all the other parts necessary to swap into our V6 cars. For others, it's something different to help add innovation to a sport that appears to be stagnating. Here are my reasons for going V6:

A) Decreased curb-weight.
B) Better weight distribution.
C) Because of reasons A) and B), better handling.
D) Better fuel efficiency.
E) An engine that's begging to be turbocharged to the point of making modified V8 power levels.
F) Not spending hundreds of dollars more on a "V8 Camaro"...that quite possibly was originally a V6 car anyhows.

Redsledd, if you still can't understand why we do this, hey, don't worry. We're not starting the apocalypse or anything equally disastrous. We're just finding ways off getting our rocks off that don't coincide with yours.

Hell, I'd love to see an EcoteCamaro with a twin-charged LSJ out of a Cobalt SS Supercharged. That sounds like another project I'll have to add to my list...

Project 3.4 Camaro

I vaguely recall someone wanting to put an ecotec in their car, they were building it for fuel efficiency.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

bl85, You don't need a 65 mm TB, trust me.

I've had better luck with a 52 mm TB in place of my 56 mm TB, especially when turbocharged. My Jimmy dropped like 4 tenths in back to back runs, by swapping to the smaller TB.

I wish I was into tuning the ECM back when I had my turbo hybrid together, and had proper sized injectors. I really only had a rev range up to about 4500 RPM, because I'd run out of injector. I still made 218 HP and 270 Ft/lbs of torque, at the wheels, on a poorly tuned combination and a few mismatched parts, but it was my first jump into building something like this and only the second RWD 660 hybrid to be running in a vehicle, at the time.

In pretty mild N/A form, 200 HP is not unheard of using the 3400 top end, and proper tuning.

To the OP:

I have one question:

Why not?

Project 3.4 Camaro

I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that when it comes to 0-60, drag racing, anything off the line really, bigger throttle body will hurt your times unless its a choke point, but if you're doing something like road racing, autocross, or circle track where your car is constantly in the powerband, I believe a larger throttlebody will work better.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

My datalogs seem to indicate otherwise, airflow plateaus above 5000rpm and vacuum continues to climb with rpm. We'll find out what it needs soon enough at the track. Next on the list is getting rid of the stock converter. Launching at 2k is annoying.

Guest

Nobody has what? Polished their plenum? Hardly. I have seen many over the 12 years I have been on this board, including every Fiero ever at a carshow.

Now this is rare- my custom 4.1quart plenum and 62mm billet TB and custom made PFE stainless steel headers also ceramic coated along with lots of other goodies under there. I do not own it anymore. Why a V6 in one of these cars? I only still boast the best handling 3rd gen street car ever at 1.07 lateral g's on 280tw street tires and a 60-0 in 102 feet.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I've seen a lit of half a**ed plenums out there, but none that look half as nice as mine, if I do say so. If you can show me a picture, I'll be glad to retract my statement.

Fiero's are a different matter... the V6 was their version of a TPI, the top dog. of COURSE they are going to make them look nice. you don't see many people put this kind of effort into a 2.8 camaro because to most, they just aren't worth the effort

Love to see any threads you can remember... I looked and looked for examples of nice one, and couldn't find any

grassyflats

I have a stock 3.1 RS that is really fast...
shes for sale too...oh and a...dont mess with texas

project89

iTrader: (1)

i built a few of these




netted me a nice gain over the stock piece too 2 other members here have ones that i made but i dont know if they ever got around to installing them one i dont think ever made it on a car as he was planning to go turbo and was waiting to get the turbo system done but noone heard from him again shortly after that

K-slice

iTrader: (2)

Not bashing... lol.

I bought mine MAINLY for the ease of working on it. These engines are very simple and in an engine bay designed for a 5.7 the 3.1 sits in there with plenty of space. Also better gas mileage than an 8, and a lower cost for someone in college and working.

When I'm cruising downtown with the t-tops off and the radio playin the fact that I only has a V6 couldn't be furthur from my mind... And maybe most importantly, most girls that have ridden with me think its fast..

Fallen2603

Well, I don't think they'd do much better than the 60* V6 when it comes to efficiency...

However, I don't think it's too crazy. An all-aluminum four-banger, stock forged crank and rods if it's the LSJ, 4-bolt main girdle, great flowing head...

I think it could make a nice home in a 3rd-Gen...

Project 3.4 Camaro

No...he was building a 3rd gen for highway fuel efficiency is whats crazy, he wanted to put ridiculously steep gears in it even, enough to hurt fuel economy in the city.

Fallen2603

Oh, my bad. That's not something I would do. Just...doesn't seem worth it to me.

redsledd

So your saying noone that built one of these has a timeslip or dyno time to back it up. Makes me wonder why you'd build one in the first place.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

If you're really interested go to 60degreev6.com and look around for some times. It's been done and the evidence is there but we're not going to do the footwork for you.

K-slice

iTrader: (2)

Loooove that pic in your sig bl85c. That looks great!

92FBirdVert

iTrader: (1)

some people dont care about power just gas mileage and looks

Guest

REDRAIF (Shannon) had her's brilliantly polished and then did a paint and polish later... that V6 car went on to be features on TV on Year1's program a few years ago.

Alan has one (AM91rs..something, I forget Alans exact callname)

Jay (Dale) had one, I will post it.

And of course my 3.5 engine was pretty shiney I was building. But that was with this sustom intake I have already shown, this pic just shows things later when they were polished.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

not to be a jerk about it, but there's a big difference between polishing rough aluminum, like the pic you posted, and filing and sanding the plenum down to a mirror finish, then polishing it, like I did. one can be done in minutes, the other takes days.

I would like to see any pics you have though... I've just never seen any like mine

project89

iTrader: (1)

ive dynoed mine we dynoed my car with some serious ignition system issues and still put down 270rwhp and 370ftlbs at only 9 psi

acdcfan37

I have a 2.8 V6 in my third gen and love it. I get great gas mileage and still look sharp cause its a camaro. They are very reliable and super easy to work on. So thats why V6.

project89

iTrader: (1)

heres the dyno video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4nRt1RJYNo

some of my track runs are in my youtube videos as well

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

you know what guys no matter how many of us post as to why we build v6s most people will never understand. we will constantly get bashed and asked that very question

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Personally, I look at it this way... It's a challenge and it's different. We're following a different route than the mainstream "just throw a big V8 at it and call it a day" crowd. And, besides, there are cars out there that you just CAN'T stuff a V8 into without recreating the entire car.

Guest

Not to be a jerk either, but yours don't look any better than Jays other than you removed the castings on the neck. He just polished his on the top down to the castings- his is also dirty and about 4 years old in that pic where the polishing has faded.

Mine is professionally polished in the pic I showed- both the intake/runners, and the valve covers- along with my custom made billet aluminum stut mounts that I had the welds grind and mirror polished. I jus tdid not do the timing cover plate yet because I was not done fitting the delete plate cover yet of the electric waterpump. THe headers in that pic are ceramic coated stainless steel custom made.

I havee apicture of Shannons after she painted half of it- your does not hold a candle to her labor in her engine bay. Like I stated, her car was featured ona TV show partner.- TLC 's "Rides" to be exact.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

This! ^^

I have dyno sheets and time slips, I won't post them because I just don't care about "proving" anything to someone that just won't uinderstand and is only here as a troll. I build my vehicles for me.

To add to the some people just can't swap to a V8, add in some insurance companies will cancel policies of people that swap to larger engines or more cylinders.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I'd like to see a better pic of that first one... it does look nice

the second one... anybody can paint a plenum to cover up flaws

the third.. gross.. Don't like it at all

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

wasnt that third one called a truelo or something like that...think shes the only one that ever had one

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I kind of dig the red motif of the rest of the engine compartment, but the plenum looks like something somebody fabbed in their garage. At least smooth the weld marks and make it shine...

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i think it was actually made in a garage, not a horrible design though...cant remember if they ever dynoed the car with it on its been years

Guest

You are blinded by your ignorant bias.

Tell me you can't see that intake was completely polished and rounded edges. The paint came later. I do not have a pic of it prior to paint but it was completely and utterly beautiful compared to yours with the 2.8 emblem marring it. Why didn't you bother removing that crap emblem and polishing own the ribs? you talk as if you are the only person that knows how to polish stuff- but I personally don;t like that you did half a job leaving that emblem.

project89

iTrader: (1)

its a 700$ pos and on the dyno it made less power then stock manifold but fiero guys love them for some reason

Guest

How you been Steven, long time no talk. I never come in here anymore since the car is gone. Tweo people if I recall bought the Trueleo intake and both saw terrible # with them from what I remeber. I can't recall who the other person was. The real trouble with them is they were steel, not aluminum. Shannon had to ceramicoat hers, that why it is not real shiny, but it was certainly different when she popped the hood. She had over 15 years into building that show car.

Who is this Mark guy? He shines up a stock 2.8 upper plenum and thinks he's got gold or something. Go figure. I see someone with too much time on their hands. Should have gone to the junkyard and got a 3.1 to do without the stupid 2.8 emblem. Nice job, just wrong upper to use.