project89

iTrader: (1)

id liek to add that turbochargers do not drastically increase under hood temps or engine temps
and superchargers most certianly do need an intercooler

Guest

Hey, I was wondering... Would i lose power if my car had the stock snorkel intake and i put a aftermarket single intake on it? Would it make a difference or would i just lose power? Also, Can i tune my car to pull more power out of the stock v6 motor and if so how do i go about doing this???? I know the v6 motor can put out more power than it does stock.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

1. Why would you replace the stock snorkel intake that pulls in cooler air from in front of the radiator with an aftermarket with a filter that's stuck in the HOT engine bay?

2. You would most likely want to replace the ECM and modify your wiring harness. I'm not going to say that the stock 1227302 (for a 2.8 car) can't be tuned, but it's difficult at best since pretty much nobody wants anything to do with tuning it (but there are definitions and bins out there if you want to try).

Guest

If the stock snorkel is better then why do they make aftermarket intakes for them? I personally cant tell any difference what so ever in mpg or performance.

I know most people hate the v6, but thats what im stuck with. When you say to modify the wiring harness what do your mean specifically? And do you know of any good upgraded ECM's?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The aftermarket intakes are for people who don't know any better, to put it lightly. Why do you think anyone with some sense is putting their air filters or air inlets OUTSIDE the engine bay and drag racers ICE DOWN their intakes between races, and some others use WATER INJECTION? The answer is to COOL THE INTAKE AIR CHARGE to increase power. Putting a higher flowing air filter in a HOT air stream serves to give the engine a higher intake of HOT air, which is almost pointless. Same deal for forced induction... They use these things called INTERCOOLERS to cool the air charge.

There are no upgraded ECMs available for the V6... Everything is custom unless you have a 90-92 car with the 1227730. The wiring harness on the older cars needs to be modified to accept either the 1227165 TPI or just about any other ECM, including aftermarket ECU's such as the MegaSquirt or FAST or anything like that since the wiring pinout at the ECM is different.

Project 3.4 Camaro

^This, if you actually read my sticky I very clearly stated that the tpi snorkel intake setup is better than any aftermarket setup available, its a real simple concept, colder air is denser, denser air=more power, for an analogy take a really hot shower sometime in the winter, and stick your head outside a second and you'll notice breathing gets a whole helluva lot easier, same concept.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Not to mention that it's easily modified to flow just as much air as an aftermarket intake...

Project 3.4 Camaro

Which I also covered in my sticky :P And have done to my own car as well, not ram air yet, but the box is fully gutted giving my K&Ns direct access to fresh cold air.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Just be glad both of you guys have it so lucky. Us with Birds can only get the same by either replacing the air box AND the hood (Ram Air II hood with optional cold air intake box under the nostrils) or by fabbing something up completely custom in the front end (proving to be a bit of a problem for me right now with the rest of the body work needing to be done), both of which mean spending $$$$.

Guest

anyone have pics of their gutted air boxes?

thunder69n

I got the PaceSetter high peformance headers on, What should I be using for heat sheild?

link to headers http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PSM-70-1206/

Project 3.4 Camaro

If you're worried about heat you should have gotten the ceramic coated ones, otherwise you can still take them somewhere to get them coated, or you can buy some exhaust tape or sleeves which help to some extent.
As for gutted air box pics I do not have any of it, or access to my car atm, but its a fairly self explanatory mod, you just use a hacksaw to cut the bottom portion of the box right below where the filters sit so they have direct access to the air.

thunder69n

Thanks and know I get the gutted airbox to.
If nothing else melts I should probably be good without the heat sheild? And if my Temperature gauge is fine on instrument cluster? or is that gauge probably just telling internal engine temp?
(towed it to get timing reset), Between bouncing on the towtruck or somthing unknown, a battery cable was suposivly up against the headers and the cable got burnt threw.

z2886camaro

Hey guys i was thinking about doing my exhaust with the pacesetter headers http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PSM-72C1206/?rtype=10 and the dynomax exhaust system http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WLK-17493/ then the cat bolts on the flange of the dyno max exhaust and gets welded to the y pipe from the headers right? Also are these headers street legal and where does the o2 sensor go then? thanks

thunder69n

Hey Z2886, These did all bolt up, no welding required, was a stock position for an O2 sensor before the cat. The Compound I been using to try and seel the joints is not working for me, so if I didn't want to be able to remove the headers welding would be a good solution. Street legal, all except California I believe

Been tring to use a new stock o2 but think I been having no luck. Seems the threads may have been different as well.

My o2 crosscounts seem to be all over the place in tunerpro datalogging, and I occasionally get a code 13. Old o2 wiring barley reached. Just replaced with another new stock o2, threads dont match at all so barly sticking in there. Did want to note that my experience has been horrible with changing the headers. ( someone had previously broken manifld bolts, car barly running scince . So be sure this is somthing you want to do.

What am I looking for for an apropriate o2 sensor replacement, and maybe the correct threads?

firebird904

Thought I should add this link to torque specs and clearances on the 2.8/3.1
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ue-values.html

kmcn47

already using this and several other threads as a guide on my future hybrid build, still thinking on what to do 3100, 3400, 3500, 4.3l i know a yard where i could get anyone of them for cheap, idk how good they'd be though

Jacob1990RS

how can you test the ECU in a 1990 camaro RS 3.1 v6??

Project 3.4 Camaro

First off why are you asking that here, in THIS sticky of all places........ that's the kind of thing you search for, and make an entirely new post for if you don't find the answer. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with this sticky, or its topic...a question like this belongs in the v6 section(the forum section, not the sticky..), electronics, or DFI/ECM which would be the most appropriate.

Now to answer your question, it depends on what you are testing, if you are testing whether its toasted or not, if it is, it will spit multiple codes typically, without any actual problems, there is also a code for bad ECU that will probably also be present, though I think sometimes it isn't.

Adrenaline1

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys, new to the forum and have a few questions. I bought an 82 firebird as a graduation present for myself when i finished high school. Well i got it running well and fixed anything that wasnt quite right since it had been in storage for 10 years. Well, after i did that its now been in storage for roughly another 4 years and since im almost done with college i figured its time to actually get some use out of it since i have more time and money. I have roughly $3000 to spend on the car and would like your opinions on how to best spend the money. Since the exhaust leaks thats a must so any suggestions on that would be great. Aside from that what do you think?

Also, since its a standard 2.8 is it possible/worthwhile to convert it to MPFI and if so are there kits to do that?

Thanks

Adrenaline1

iTrader: (1)

I figured id ask this as well since it has to do with one of my previous questions. Since i would like to avoid MPFI would a better carb/intake be a good choice? If so what are my options? Ive tried reading up on the carb forums but im not getting it all i guess. Thanks

Cadaver_Puncher

Also let's not forget spark.
ALL the mods in the world won't do jack crap if there is no spark.
I forgot the part number But the cap and rotor from a 3.4 fits perfectly.
Also. A msd ignition box works great.
I did see a mention of ac rapid fire plugs, I've tried them all ( including the e3 and the more exotics )
our cars like the rapid fires. Second choice would be Bosch platnium.
Mallory also makes an ignition box, but I've had problems with Mallory. ( Mallory is the company that also makes summit racing house brand.)

Also adjustable fuel pressure regulators along with slightly larger injectors.

Everything put all together should have your car embarrassing others in no time.
If I reposted some...sorry don't have my contacts in.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

SOOO much wrong information here...
1. 3.4's DO NOT HAVE A DISTRIBUTOR, period, so there is no cap and rotor.
2. DO NOT use platinum plugs... They're crap in anything other than the engine they're designed for. Not to mention you're just wasting your money on the Bosch +2/+4 plugs since everyone and their brother knows they STILL fire on only ONE electrode .
3. According to the guys that designed our ignition systems, an oil filled canister ignition coil is best, preferably the MSD Blaster 2 or 3 (I have a thread about this, ). I personally recommend to stay as far away from Accel as possible, and ANY replacement ignition coil should be mounted AS FAR AWAY from the exhaust as possible (as in DO NOT BUY A STOCK REPLACEMENT hi-perf COIL AND MOUNT IT TO THE STOCK BRACKET!!!). :edit: And let's not forget the guy on here that suffered an underhood fire a couple months ago probably due to an overheated stock replacement MSD ignition coil...
4. Adjustable fuel pressure regulators and larger injectors don't do crap but make the engine run pig rich if you don't tune the ECM first, and since the 1227302 that most of us run is basically untuneable (very difficult, which is why nobody touches them), an ECM swap to either a 1227165, 1227730, 1227727 (underhood 1227730), or a replacement such as the FAST or MegaSquirt is necessary.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

there is actually an msd cap rotor for a 4.3 that fits and it does infact fit the 3.1/2.8.

i think summit finally listed it to fit our motors but you used to only be able to find it by knowing what car it came on.

i had good luck with the ac delco rapid fires before boost.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yes, but he specified the 3.4, not the 4.3... The cap and rotor, according to Summit, were used on the pre-1995 trucks, pre-1990 Caprice, (both with the 4.3) and all 2.8 and 3.1 cars (assuming RWD and the 1985 FWD cars that ran either carbs or TBI, whichever they had and also the Fiero), so they would obviously be found in a search with our cars/engines.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

yeah i corrected myself as i was thinking there 3.4 instead of 4.3

Cadaver_Puncher

Sorry all to hell about mixing the numbers up. ONCE AGAIN ...I didn't have my contacts in at the time.
Also. I was speaking from personal experience on the fuel pressure regulator and injectors.
But then again burning a different chip to make it work might be difficult for some.

Hell, just drop a 502 ramjet in it. ( and yes new motor mounts, and computer and fuel pump, do I need to list ALL parts involved? )



It's better to have people THINK you're a fool ...than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, I saw that... In all actuality, though, there is a dizzy cap and rotor for the 3.4 Inline 6 that CAN be used on the early 2.8 cars that have the coil in the dizzy cap... Saw that on Summit as well as the 4.3 parts I posted above... Don't think any carbed F-bodies had that particular distributor, however, unless the ECM and computer-controlled carb were deleted and the dizzy swapped for a vac advance dizzy.

Wasn't Mark Twain brilliant? Exact reason why I really don't say much (in person).

janson33

hey all.so i have an 88 bird with a 2.8 lol and was wondering wut EVERYONE thinks about adding the following.a whole new true dual exhaust system.this would include those pacesetter ceramic coated headers,an h-pipe,2 new cats,and flowmaster super 10's.wut size piping does everyone think i should use?2's? or would 2.25's be overkill?i also wanna add a cai,most likely an AEM,from autopartswarehouse.com and finally a performance chip from performancechiptuning.com i really hope all those mods will get it to 200hp but as most of u will say,that wont happen with just these parts...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

If you would , there is a chart floating around the Net with optimal exhaust sizes based on single or dual exhaust and engine displacement. Optimal size for true duals for most 60* V6 engines as installed in F-bodies (this excludes the 3.6, 3.8, 3800 SII, and the 3900s that have been swapped into our cars) is 2", single is 2.5".

You'll be lucky to get stock crank HP at the wheels with just an intake (you MUST build your own if you want a CAI as EVERYTHING made for our cars is UNDERHOOD, which means it sucks in HOT air) and exhaust mods... 200HP on stock heads requires MAJOR work... As in porting and polishing EVERYTHING above the pistons, new cam, fuel injectors, ECM tuning, etc... You might get 200HP at the wheels if you're lucky, N/A.

Cadaver_Puncher

I have to agree with maverick ...
unless you have unlimited time, money and access to a great machinist, it would be damn near impossible to get 200+ hp with just an intake and exhaust.

( search for the sticky, how to make power [ I think that's what it's named ] you will find ALOT of good and useful information there. )

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the PaceSetter headers DO NOT allow for easy true duals unless you want to run both pipes down the passenger's side of the car. The driver's side header actually comes FORWARD as it drops down the side of the block. If you wanted traditional true duals, making your own headers would be required.

Cadaver_Puncher

Duh ... ok having a senior moment, this IS the thread I was referring to.
2 in around 24 hr period, and my contacts were IN this time! WTF?
I blame the government ... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Cadaver_Puncher

I've heard pacesetters suck. But not too many exhaust shops around my area don't want to get involved making headers. They say it's too labor extensive to make and tune them.
If you happen to know any place that can make them reasonable cost wise ...please let me know.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yes, the PaceSetters may suck, but they're the only thing available that's a drop-in for our cars. The older Hookers are rarely found on eBay, and probably through the roof expensive. Only other factory-made headers I know of for a 60* V6 equipped F-body are RKSport headers for the 93-95.5 3.4 cars, of which I wouldn't know if they fit or not on ours (would REALLY like to find out as the primaries are bigger, but they're $200 more).

:edit: Been waiting a couple years now for the guys who make the headers for things like the Beretta/Grand Prix, Grand Am, Cavalier, etc to make some decent headers for our cars, especially for 3x00 hybrid builds .

Cadaver_Puncher

Maybe after my physical therapy tomorrow, I'll call pacesetter and Try to find out the dimensions, tube lengths, basically all the info about their headers, then take the numbers to an exhaust guy I know and see what he can do.
If he can do them around the same price or less...
I'll get a few made and see who wants a set.
Anything that should be added that pacesetter doesn't have but would be nice to have?
Can't promise anything, but I'll do my best.

janson33

Thx a lot for ur detailed opinion.I think I'm gonna go with 2's from the headers to the cats,then from the cats to the h-pipe.then I think ima go 2.25's from the h pipe to the mufflers,then for tail pipes ima go 2.5's.then finally add my 4 inch tips.and yes I am completely aware of how the header on the driver side points forward.I will get 2 mandrel bent 45 degree elbows and put it together to point perfectly towards the rear

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You're going to create issues that way... 2" front to out the tail is what you need. Any pipe that's 4 inches on a V6 is considered r1ce. That's as bad as having a 3-4" exhaust on a 1.8L four-banger.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

PaceSetters have 1.5" primaries... The RKSport headers are 1.75" and are better for use with hybrid builds (but again, they're for the 4th gen, so the bends are probably wrong). I know some have 3.1's and require the AIR bung which would be on the #3 primary next to the EGR flange fitting (which would probably make the headers CARB legal).

Would be nice to have an optional flange for the growing popularity of the 3x00 head swap (wider bolt pattern and D-shaped ports) with the larger primaries AND the EGR fitting on the driver's side (#4 primary, I think). I remember a while ago reading that the optimal primary length for the 60* V6 was 33"... Don't remember where, however, and I think that the site I found that info on is probably dead.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Why change size back and forth that much...also true duals is overkill on a v6, unless you're pushing 300hp and have a lot of headroom for more power, you really don't need more than 2.5 or 3.0. And if you did run true duals, run an x pipe, not an h.

Cadaver_Puncher

Did someone want to bastardize a third gen with rice exhaust?
If so, email me ...I have an old 5lb coffee can you can rainbow paint for a muffler.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Some of us want to be different from the rest of the 60* crowd, which is why the true duals. Plus, some of us like to plan ahead. Then again, why he wants to do it, .

Cadaver_Puncher

I'm all for standing out. But some things just look ridiculous.
Take the 22"-24" rims on pos cars or on cars where it raises them so far up in the air you can roll a bowling ball under the car without touching anything.
But then again ...I have only done subtle mods to the outside.
But to each their own.

Project 3.4 Camaro

True duals wouldn't look ridiculous, but at the power levels the majority of us are at, they are hurting performance, not increasing it, too much diameter can hurt exhaust velocity, and true duals are probably around 10-20 lbs heavier.

janson33

im getting these stainless steel polished 4 inch outlet 45 degree slash cut tips.how is that considered rice? btw i hate imports haha.and i would only keep increasing the size of the pipe like that the further back i go just for the sound.i know doing the same size all the way from beginning to end makes the most sense,but i havent decided my final decision yet...

Cadaver_Puncher

If done right, true duals could look nice.
Just think having an exhaust pipe that you can stuff a child's head in, might look odd. lol
And maverick, you are spot on about the weight.
Why add weight for a diameter pipe that might hurt performance?
Wouldn't that kinda be like putting a couple bags of redi-mix concrete in your spare tire area?

Cadaver_Puncher

Sorry project said the weight comment.
Ok all time to hit the gym. Have a great night everyone.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Well, personally, I hate that 90* bend right at the muffler as is on EVERY single cat-back and intermediate pipe on the market. Only way that would be beneficial is if the 90* bend is at a rear-mounted turbocharger and the reason for the bend is the hot side of the turbo. If the transition to the muffler can be eased, backpressure would go down a bit. Besides, adding true duals to a T-5 car still wouldn't equal the weight difference between the T-5 and the 700R4. On the other hand, the sound box I plan to put in place of the back seats would be a bit on the chunky side. Then again, I'm not looking to put together a bare-bones, all-or-nothing drag car, I plan to make it liveable with a bit of a surprise under the hood.

To each their own, I guess.

ItstillaV6

One note, to correct the camshaft information, on the 3.4L engine. It is the same camshaft, as the camshaft used in the 2.8L and the 3.1L.

Most likely, the extra power, generated 200 rpm higher than a 3.1L engine, comes from less valve "shrouding". The "shrouding" on the 3.1L, comes from the restrictive 3.5" bore, which GM probably used 1.72" intake/ 1.5" exhaust valves with. The extra 1/8" bore, allows more air behind the valve. The 3.4L also has the advantages of sequential fuel injection, and coil controlled ignition. Peak torque RPM is the engine's most efficient speed, at WOT. Peak HP is generated, by spinning the engine faster than its most efficient speed, but still making more power than what should be lost, from increased engine speeds. Airflow directly impacts HP, ideal atomization and pressure directly impact the amount of torque.

You'll notice that peak torque occurs at exactly the same rpm, as a 3.1L engine. Running dyno simulations, showed me that stroke length, cam duration, and lift, will affect the amount of torque generated, but it was only a change to stroke length, that changed the actual RPM of when peak torque occurred, when camshaft lift and duration remained the same. Larger bore diameter, allowed more torque to be produced, but still occurred at the same RPM.

The interchange number, for salvage yards, is also the same part number, for all three V6, fuel injected applications. The only difference in cams, are the 2.8L, with a carburetor. For the 2.8L application, with a carburetor, the cam had a lobe ground, for the mechanical fuel pump.

The heads are identical, to the 2.8L and 3.1L as well.

V-6 power

Hey, i know this is probably not the right place to post this question, but i dont know how to post yet, however. i have a question about my cars transmission, the clutch had went out 2 or 3 weeks ago, i replaced it, with a new clutch kit. However i dont know if its the lack of power my 2.8 is generating, but when you shift, into 2-3 at low rpm it seems as if its either struggling or slipping. But at high rpms, these problems, are not seen, if someone knows, or could help me it would really help, its my daily driver, and i'd like to keep it running as best as i can.